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Principal Knowlton: Gym as Important as Science

And now for the Embarassing School Official Comment of the Week:

School administrators in the Madison Central School District say they need a larger high school gym.

High School Principal Sharon Knowlton tells the Madison Daily Leader that the proposed new gym space is as vital to the school as space for the music programs, updated science labs and renovation to the school's auditorium ["Proposed Gym for Madison Central School District," AP via KDLT, 2011.09.25].

Ugh. When a high school prinicipal thinks that throwing balls around on school time is as important as learning chemistry and physics, we have a serious case of jockocracy-skewed priorities. Instead of accommodating students who want easy P.E. credits, Madison Central should focus on bulking up facilities for serious academic pursuits.

Meanwhile...

Rep. Kristi Noem meets with Spearfish HS principal Steve Morford, Sept. 22, 2011

...Congresswoman Kristi Noem says on her Facebook page that she met last week with my boss, Principal Steve Morford, to discuss education last week. I really hope they didn't talk basketball... although that's Rep. Noem's only real area of "education" expertise.

49 Comments

  1. Michael Black 2011.09.26

    Wait just one second Cory, you want to take away the gym that is already there to improve band, chorus and theater without replacing it.

    Getting kids to gain the habits of being active is a good thing rather than having them sit in front of monitors all day.

  2. John Hess 2011.09.26

    I agree with you Michael, it's good to have positive habits, but I'm not convinced we learn those from the high school gym or playing ball. Think for a moment about our high school jocks. I can think of so many that are in pretty poor shape now, which tells me it didn't have the impact we hope: Long term health.

  3. rob honomichl 2011.09.26

    I think back to so many of my friends that are now doctors, lawyers, engineers, and teachers that excelled in athletics. Many of them were lucky to go to college on both academic and athletic scholarships. Did throwing a ball around have as much on their education as science and math? How many presidents played high school and collegiate sports?

    Do sports and pe help the rest of us as well? I believe the state offers fitness incentives to its employees to lower the cost insurance.

    Over the years students with medical issues have been caught through pe and sports that may have been missed. Many of those students have received the attention they needed because of screenings.

    I believe there is so much more to a gym than what you see. To you it is athletics. To me it is a place where my son will learn skills of teamwork and leadership. A place where he will understand how to dance with a girl as well as understand how to react to situations. A place where he will grow through middle and high school and a place he can be proud of. I place where friendships will be developed and enhanced with peers and those from other places.

  4. Ashley Kenneth Allen 2011.09.26

    I watched the KDLT piece live as it happened on the shortened newscast on Sunday evening. It made it seem like the Gym was costing 14.5 Million. It did not mention any of the great academic and fine arts items in depth. It was a 30 second filler piece that did not get the proper attention. The KDLT piece was poor journalism at best.

    The new school plan is an example of great compromise. The School Board has lowered the tax burden and we are able to remodel and or build new much of the entire High School and extend the life of the structure by 40-50 years.

    This is a capital improvement issue, not a teacher pay issue. I think the School Board, Mrs. Knowlton, and many others would like to see more teachers and higher teacher pay.

    Cory, you are treating the issue of Athletics and the inclusion of a gym unfairly. If the Arts have a place in the school, then certainly Athletics do as well. We should not discriminate between the two.

    On a positive note, I have seen improvements in our Marching Band this year and the Spirit were looking great. The rebuilding of the band is underway and I believe the new Fine Arts wing will help this even more. Also, the elimination of Trimester scheduling will also give students an opportunity to participate in the Fine Arts year round during the school day.

    This is a Jocks vs. Glee debate. It is about remodeling and fixing our entire school, including our Fine Arts and Athletic/Physical Education areas.

    The cultural war of Jocks vs. Glee kids should not hold up our building needs.

    I wonder, what does the Spearfish High School look like?

  5. RGoeman 2011.09.26

    Cory, there is a scholastic benefit to a High School gym, which we currently do not have, at least in usable form, where spectators can watch events. I'm pretty impressed with the fact the district is planning to use capital outlay dollars plus a much smaller bond issue that will affect homeowners, farmers and business property owners with a much lower tax burden. What might have cost $200 per $100,000 of valuation will now only be around $60 per $100,000. I'm willing to spend $60 a year to rennovate the high school and build a gym. As far as I'm concerned, any method to get parents more involved in their children's school lives is worth the investment. Some parents never get closer to the school building than the gym for events. While that's not healthy, it is what it is. Those benefits of learning teamwork, participation, health and healthy interaction are real and last a lifetime. You need to embrace this project...All of it.

  6. Ashley Kenneth Allen 2011.09.26

    That should say *This is NOT a Jocks vs. Glee debate.

  7. Ashley Kenneth Allen 2011.09.26

    Also... you say easy P.E. credits. Funny you should say that. I opted out of taking P.E. more than one year and took the easy Band, Choir, and Music Theory classes instead of getting exercise in P.E. class. Some may say those Fine Arts classes are "easy" credits as well. (Yes, we had a Music Theory class for seniors one year back in 1998, it was great)

    There are many students that will never take an advancement placement class or sit in Choir. Some like to lift weights, run, and learn about nutrition and exercise. Others like shop class and cooking class.... many of these classes are student and or parent choices.

    Let's have a school that can cater to everyone's talents.

    Cory, I know that you remember Gardner's multiple intelligences from all of those Education theory classes. Linguistic intelligence, Logical-mathematical, Musical intelligence, Bodily-kinesthetic intelligence, Spatial intelligence, Interpersonal intelligence, and Intrapersonal intelligence. Seems to me that we cannot teach to a student's varied "intelligence" without having a 21st century facility that meets the criteria for teaching to all of these. That includes a nice gym.

  8. John Hess 2011.09.26

    This proposal appears to be a reasonable compromise. Hopefully it sails through with minimal grumbling and no more dirty tricks. We have to teach and show kids ethical behavior which the school board failed in their first go round. That's just as important as academics and sports. I'm still left feeling the people that want the gym exaggerate its benefits but compromise is a good thing. Bottom line we need a better school without a huge tax burden and this seems like the answer.

  9. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.26

    Michael, please review my suggestions and others' from back in March. The suggestions I made then involved renovating the existing HS gym space into a more workable. I'm not saying get rid of a gym... although you know, I wouldn't mind if we did and focused our health and wellness efforts on lifelong activities like running, cycling, and walking... or if we just recognized that Madison has sports opportunities coming out of its ears and that the school would do well to focus on academics. To declare a gym as vital as science education in a public school is incorrect.

  10. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.26

    Ashley, you overstretch the "multiple intelligences" concept here. No one is getting into Harvard or solving the mysteries of life or really advancing their career options that much in our P.E. classes. They are dodging real academic work. All this new gym teaches our kids is that academics aren't important enough to invest in on their own: we only get to do things if the jocks get their way first.

  11. Douglas Wiken 2011.09.26

    The standard tactic of those pushing poorly conceived wasteful school building projects is to first push something completely absurd and then "compromise" on something somewhat less absurd, but still wasteful.

    The question is actually jockism vs. realism. There are five members playing most of the time on a BB team. The crowd and the rest sit on their butts.

    Exercise machines available to all students or even required to be used by all students make more sense. That approach has been tried and there is actual evidence grades and learning are increased.

    Required swimming courses provide a useful skill. Shooting balls through nets is one step above carnival game skills. Golf and tennis may make sense since those are things people can participate in practically for the rest of their lives.

  12. Donald Pay 2011.09.26

    I don't agree. If you teach PE right it can provide a basis for lifelong skills and habits that are increasingly needed. I agree that some PE classes could be more useful. Just throwing a ball around is not that useful, unless you haven't learned that skill at an earlier age.

    At age 60, I can't remember what I learned in high school chemistry and physics classes, but I can remember learning tennis in PE.

    As a former school board member, I know that gym space can be used by the community after school hours and for multiple purposes during school hours. Also, teachers of academic subjects should know that PE classes often have more students than an academic class. This actually decreases the costs of these classes and makes it possible to have smaller classes in academic subjects.

  13. Ashley Kenneth Allen 2011.09.26

    Ohh my friend Cory...you are becoming the liberal version of Sue Sylvester. Yes; I am watching Glee right now. :o

    Sometimes compromise is okay...even in this situation. (Even tnough I do agee with some of the thoughts on "jockular culture")

  14. Ashley Kenneth Allen 2011.09.26

    Get it....watching Glee instead of watching Monday Night Football?!?.... How dare I in this jocular culture! The debate rages on!

  15. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.26

    Ashley, you clever devil. :-)

    Donald, I agree that P.E. classes can have value. I disagree that they have the same value as academic classes. And right now, we have a high school gym, a middle school gym, an elementary school gym, a downtown armory, and a community center to provide the public with lots of play space. Madison's principal seems to have a problem with letting people into the high school to use the gym.

  16. Michael Black 2011.09.26

    I was taught basketball by Mr. Walsh in 6th grade at Garfield school. My friends went on to play varsity ball. I learned far more in basketball that year than any subject taught in school.

    Let's not do the gym Cory. You're completely right!

  17. Michael Black 2011.09.26

    I guess I'll just have to disagree and keep it at that.

  18. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.26

    I'm going to ride your case on that one, Michael. What specifically did you learn in sxth grade basketball that outweighs your academic efforts that year? Can you assure me the learning outcomes you want to ascribe to sixth grade basketball aren't just a comfortable narrative you weave after the fact? Can you show me what questions you got right on later tests that you would have gotten wrong if you hadn't played basketball... or, more accurately for this discussion, if you had played basketball in a different gym that your principal didn't like as much?

    I can weave at least as many stirring narratives about how I learned more in Doc Miller's speech and compositions classes, in his theater productions, in Jill Frederick's art classroom, in Nancy Edwards's choir room (yes, the same space currently deemed an imminent death trap by various alarmed citizens), Martin Connor's literature room (the same windowless cell in which I taught for a couple wonderful years) than I ever learned in the various sports I played. Yes, I enjoyed my autumn runs in cross country. I enjoyed running the final leg of a 4x400 in ninth-grade track when I took the baton and wheeled off into what felt thrillingly like an infinite night beyond the east fence well after sunset. But I learned more in academic and arts activities. I use what I learned in my academic classes and arts activities every day to teach students, to teach my daughter, to relate to people, to write this blog, and to make money.

  19. John Hess 2011.09.26

    Doug is right. Five people running around a basketball court doesn't make a healthy school. Three of them will be fat by the time they're forty. I'll just never get the sports thing, but I'll accept it's important to others. Build it, and then pass a TIF for a new grocery store. TIFs are a wonderful thing you know. Just read the paper!

  20. Sunshine 2011.09.26

    The planned gym is very similar to the Tea districts. I have been in that gym and it is not fancy. It has good lighting and seating. District events take place in Tea because of the gym size. Yes we need to update the school and the present high school gym will be used to enhance our fine arts programs. Youth learn sportsmanship, teamwork and leadership skills while playing sports and participating in fine arts. And yes some of those athletes and performers go on to much bigger and better things later on in life. They use the skills learned in the classroom, gym and stage. My children attended MHS - played sports, played in the band - and use those skills now as parents, members of their community and taught skills for their jobs.

  21. Heather Lee 2011.09.26

    Corey, I have to disagree on your thought of PE is not a needed area. A gym is needed and to teach kids healthy ways. Many kids only have that kind of teaching at school. A large gym is not my choice but if it stirs the economy in Madison lets go. I will never agree that a gym is not needed. I avoided PE in high school as much as possible. Now I regret what it could have taught me. Sports are a needed aspect also, I just hope they are taking all sports in to account. Band is great, Music is great we all learn different ways and as a teacher you should know that.

  22. Michael Black 2011.09.26

    I am not going to change your mind and you won't change mine.

    I'm not going to discuss this any farther. If someone wants to vote for the project that's their business.

  23. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.26

    Let's review the commentary, Heather: I contend that "the proposed new gym space is" not "as vital to the school as space for the music programs, updated science labs and renovation to the school’s auditorium." I do not say that we do not need P.E. (and let's not forget: that's just the curricular gloss the board and admin are putting on thise extra-curricular plan). I do say that we do not need P.E. as much as we need academics and fine arts.

    I do know students learn in different ways. But we're not talking about using physical activity to help kids learn math and science and English and foreign language. We're talking about the fact that sports are prioritized far too highly and academics not nearly enough. Trying to convince folks that sports are just as vital as science only takes that misprioritization to an embarassing extreme.

    And really, do you think it is responsible for you to come up to my daughter (or anyone else's child) and tell her that it's as important that she play basketball (or watch other kids playing basketball) as that she study physics? or drama? or music? or French?

    Kids don't need classes in sports as much as they need classes in other areas. They make games up quite well on their own. They find plenty of parents and clubs just itching to draw them in to sports activities year-round. They find reinforcement of the sports-playing urge throughout the local and global media (check your newspaper: read the Sports section, then find for me the Academics section). Kids have much greater need of classes from the public school system that stimulate their academic and artistic minds in ways the rest of the community does not. Sports are thus not as vital a part of the public school system's mission as academics and fine arts.

  24. Donald Pay 2011.09.26

    Well, you got me thinking. It seems to me a good PE teacher could put a lot of science into PE. In my view it's a way to reach some students and motivate them to learn. Kinesiology, anatomy, nutrition and physiology lessons can be incorporated into PE. There are lots of physics to be learned from tennis and baseball. Math and statistical skills can be learned from many sports. I think I learned my multiplication of 7s more by football than by memorizing the times tables.

  25. Charlie Johnson 2011.09.26

    I was part of the committee that reviewed the new plan that will be presented to the voters in November. I will not discredit that plan but I will offer some comments. It was important/necessary that the previous two bond issues be voted down. The 2007 bond issue(spectator gym) if passed would have made moot or impossible any possible renovation to MHS for up to 20 years. The earlier 2011 issue was way over the top and involved a bond issue of 2 mills on property on top of 3 mills already taxed via capital outlay. This potential additional tax burden had the likely prospect of doing irrepairable damage to our local property tax system. Some caveats to keep in mind. We are still asking for an increase in taxes for 20 years running. Any other future potential need/project that warrants a bond issue will need to be shelved for the next 20 years. Remember there is only " one punch" on the bond issue meal ticket. Secondly the finance plan requires up to 50% or more of all revenue created by the capital outlay levy to pay for CO certificates. This will require sacrifice/discipline within capital outlay for 20 years. The finance plan is all doable. But it will require discipline and long term awareness. That is why private money needs to step up to the plate. Those same supporters who speak highly of the program need to really step up to the plate and put money behind words. Most but not all of the MHS renovation beyond the gym could be financed without a bond issue. The gym is the biggest feature of the total price tag. That is not being for or against the gym, that is just stating the obvious. Needs versus wants is the operative term. What that involves is in the eye of the beholder. My view is that needs starts with physical plant operations such as electrical, heating, cooling, lighting, water, and fire safety. Next on my list comes instructional classroom updates in academics such as lecture hall, science labs, fine arts, math, vocational programs, and social sciences. Finally my list includes sports. Keep in mind, I read the sports section first each day when I read the paper so I'm not anti-sports. But when it comes to a pecking order, you should know where you place the rungs on the ladder. Keep a healthy perspective on the MHS project. Have the discussion, the debate, and yes even the arguments. In the end, make a well reasoned, well informed decision when you vote.

  26. Stan Gibilisco 2011.09.26

    Eons ago in the People's Republic of Minnesota, my dad recommended that I join the swim team when I was 13 years old. My middle school ("junior high") had a 20-yard pool. My high-school had a 25-yard pool.

    Competitive swimming proved one of the best things I ever did. To this day, I swim a mile every morning. I never got a scholarship for swimming, and I was no good at any other sport (except hitting a softball).I

    f I hadn't had the swim team experience, I'd probably be a flabby, unhappy, anxiety-ridden geek today. As things are, I'm a trim, relatively happy geek with a little jock mixed in.

    Thanks dad! Thanks Minnesota!

    Athletics do play a role in a child's life. Kids need more than mere training for a future role as some specialized cog in The Great Machine.

    I'll say the same thing for arts and music programs that I say for physical education and sports. There ought to be more to school than computers, books, and teachers' funky looks.

    Now I've set myself up for your next tax attack, eh Cory? Well, so be it ...

  27. Tyler Crissman 2011.09.27

    Cory, I respect your stance on this issue, but I've got to say you're thinking about this the wrong way.

    "We’re talking about the fact that sports are prioritized far too highly and academics not nearly enough"
    Cory, many high school athletes aspire to play at a collegiate level. You do realize that you have to have a certain GPA to be able to participate in collegiate athletics though, right? That means you can't play unless you study hard and get good grades. I know for a fact that several prominent coaches at South Dakota public colleges actually hold their players to a higher standard than the NCAA requires. You can see it in action at SDSU http://www.thesummitleague.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=3900&ATCLID=205181118

    "And really, do you think it is responsible for you to come up to my daughter (or anyone else’s child) and tell her that it’s as important that she play basketball (or watch other kids playing basketball) as that she study physics? or drama? or music? or French?"
    I'll pose this question to you Cory, do you think it's very responsible to say that a gymnasium is any less valuable of a classroom as a science lab is or a computer lab or a band room? In a gym, as Mr. Pay mentions before me, you can learn physiology, you can learn physics, you can learn how to count and how to recognize and interpret statistics (something that I had several teachers do). Besides that, in a gymnasium you can also learn teamwork, cooperation, leadership and even when you're sitting in the stands watching a team, you can develop a sense of community spirit (something that you make a rather disjointed attempt at advocating for sometimes).

    "Sports are thus not as vital a part of the public school system’s mission as academics and fine arts."
    Really Cory? That's probably the most broad statement I've ever heard. Now, I know people like you who take the position that sports aren't important, and I won't even try to analyze why, because you probably wouldn't like it. That being said, why do you think that sports aren't as vital to the mission of a school? If you want to focus on the "mission of a school" and use your logic, it is to provide an environment for learning, and all other extracurriculars (band, chorus, orchestra, debate and athletics) aren't vital to a school's mission. So Cory, with you're logic, if you want to focus on a school's mission, you might as well focus on the classroom alone, and cut out everything else.

  28. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.27

    Tyler: like Ashley, Donald, and others here, you are exaggerating the academic benefits of athletics. Physiology and physics in the gym? Get real. How many students directly derive serious academc knowledge from sports?

    If you want to talk academic benefits, try this: I once went through the state standards for language arts to see how many of them were directly addressed by debate. My count: over 80 out of the 120 standards listed at that time... and that was without getting creative. That was without citign the additional and equivalent benefits of teamwork and community spirit that everyone vaunts in sports but which we can achieve just as well in debate, choir, science labs, and other arts and academic activities that provide more direct academic benefits.

    My logic thus does not dictate that no other extracurricular activities are vital to a school's mission. Academically oriented extracurriculars are more vital to that mission than sports.

    It is not irresponsible to say sports are less vital to the school's mission than academics and fine arts. It is logical and realistic. It is irresponsible to make more kids imagine that sports are the yellow brick road to college. A minority of students get sports scholarships. A minority of students join the ranks of intercollegiate athletes. You, Tyler, take the illogical and irresponsible position of prescribing for more students the roundabout path of investing enormous time and energy in sports in hopes of boosting their academic scores when they could just go to schools where we make better academic and arts activities available to all students and directly build their brains and workplace skills. Really, the difference in our positions is as simple as this: you tell kids, "Want to learn physics? Take P.E." I tell kids, "Want to learn physics? Take physics."

  29. Michael Black 2011.09.27

    Cory, do you feel that the opposition to the high school renovation is as strong as it was running up to the last bond issue vote?

  30. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.27

    Stan: swimming a mile every morning? Wow! That's serious fitness! I respect commitment and physical effort like that.

    But consider: we're not investing $6.3 million in a bond issue to build more space for students to engage in physical activity. We're spending a lot iof money to build an arena where a few varsity athletes will play amidst a couple thousand seats that may occasionally be filled by people sitting and watching. Charlie, you can perhaps provide some input on actual floor space, but I'm not sure we're actually increasing the amount of space available to run, jump, catch, etc. We're increasing spectator space.

    If the priority of this gym project were on giving more students more opportunities to be physically active, we would not build bleachers; we would fill the footprint of the new athletic building with a couple of basketball courts, a swimming pool, an indoor track, and maybe even a bowling alley. There'd be no room to watch (just as there are no bleachers in my French classroom), but there'd be room for every student to participate in a wide variety of activities. Even if I accepted the exaggerated arguments people are making here for the ability of students to learn physics and statistics while playing sports (and I do not), this project is not expanding those opportunities.

  31. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.27

    Michael: probably not. It's only natural that if you tell people taxes are going up $6.3 million instead of $16.9 million, fewer people will vote no. The magic question: how many fewer?

  32. Charlie Johnson 2011.09.27

    I don't have the square footage figures readily available but the proposed gym would have 3 practice courts. The present gym has two courts. Even with the new construction, several sports teams will have to practice in the morning. This will still involve instructors/students arriving early in the morning dark, rushing through a practice, dressing/showering before class starts at 8:15. Is that the right way to start the academic day? Some will argue, shouldn't matter. I think it does. When we have built new gyms in the community center, elementary school, and in the proposed gym, why would we still have morning practices? Remember the present gym will be eliminated in the renovation plan.

  33. John Hess 2011.09.27

    Does anyone know why the school board didn't propose using capital outlay originally?

  34. tonyamert 2011.09.27

    Just a couple of comments:

    1. I believe that no one here is arguing that the current gym is not able to support existing PE classes. So denying this bond issue does not eliminate or hamper existing PE. Therefore, the new gym would not offer any competitive advantage for PE classes.

    2. The main argument for this then is high school athletics. Does anyone know what percentage of the student body participates in high school athletics that require a gym facility (basketball/volleyball/wrestling)? Is it less than 10%? less than 5%? Does it make sense to spend many millions of dollars on programs that cater to less than 5% of the student body?

    3. I personally feel that physical activity during elementary/middle school/high school is very important. However, it does not appear to me that the athletic programs successfully engage a significant portion of the student population. Accordingly, I would re-direct those funds in a way that would include more students in general physical activity. Perhaps rent space in the community center to offer more opportunities for students.

  35. Jim 2011.09.27

    Tony-

    Please rethink your numbers. Do you really think less than 5% of the high school student body uses the gym?
    If the ADM is 400, you are suggesting less than 20 students participate in all high school levels of basketball, volleyball, or wrestling. I am guessing the total number of participants is closer to 30%. This does not take into consideration the middle school participants.
    I am sure there have been times where the band, cross country and track teams, and tennis teams have had to practice indoors. Add in those numbers and I think you start to see a greater percentage of participants than 30%.
    I have said before that I am not in favor of a 2500 seat facility, simply because I do not believe there would ever be a situation where all the seats would be filled. I could see 1500 seats, with less than half being used less than half the time. To think we only need a gym, without seating, is absurd. There are things called community and school spirit that you can't get from halls and classrooms only.
    If a person takes the time to check the schedules of the Community Center gyms, the DSU Fieldhouse, and the Middle School gym, you will find a pretty full slate, which results in inexperienced drivers driving to and from school in the dark just to be a participant.
    The grade school and downtown armory gyms should not be considered when discussing high school athletics, even though the armory does get used for sports like softball, volleyball, and basketball. The teams need to practice, and they practice where they can. For lack of a better word, the participants deserve to perform at their own facility, with more than mom & dad standing on the sides watching.

  36. Tyler Crissman 2011.09.27

    And, like so many people who hate P.E. and sports Cory, you're UNDERestimating the academic benefits of a physical education class...

    If you have a competent P.E. teacher, that teacher can teach students how the heart will work in direct relation to physical exercise; that teacher can teach students how, if you're not properly hydrated, your kidney's wont work properly and you performance (and overall well being) will be degraded. In basketball or baseball for instance, a competent gym teacher can teach students physics by demonstrating the proper force and energy needed to throw a strike in baseball, or the proper force and energy need to shoot a three pointer.

    In regards to state content standards, you're right, debate does address many language arts standards. However, just try and think about how many state content standards are addressed through sports... and you don't have to limit yourself to just one content area; a first grader can learn to recognize vocabulary terms by playing basketball. A third grader can learn multiplication (as Mr. Pay cites) by learning to compute the score in football. A sixth grader can recognize how the muscular system will function better with proper exercise. A freshman in high school can learn statistics by computing what his or her shooting average might be by playing basketball. I'll give you debate and chorus, they can help build teamwork and community spirit, but science labs can help build teamwork? Community spirit? How? If you're working in the science lab, 9 times out of 10 you're working individually (at least from my personal experiences that I observed while doing research in a lab)... very rarely are you working as part of a larger team. Thus Cory, I ask the question, if you cite the same things as I have (teamwork and community spirit) and say that they can be built in debate, chorus and the science lab, and I say that they can be built by watching or playing, basketball, football or track, what suddenly makes debate/chorus/orchestra any more important to a schools mission than athletic participation might be if they build the same things? Is it because you think that you have to be "smart" to be in debate/chorus/orchestra, and you make the assumption that all athletes are dumb jocks? Some of the most intelligent people I know where student athletes. As you have cited, and as I have just cited above, if they build the same things, it seems to me they both play an equal role in the "mission of a school".

    Finally Cory, you end with a blanket and incorrect statement. A minority of students may get athletic scholarships, but close to a majority of all athletes do get some sort of scholarship if they choose to compete in athletics after high school. Also, where did I say that you have to play sports in order to boost your academic success? You made the statement that far too often academics takes a back seat to athletics, yet I pointed out that it is increasingly common for colleges especially to emphasize the concept of the student-athlete. Nowhere did I say that anyone had to invest time or effort in athletics to increase their academic performance.

    Cory, the difference between our views is not what you cite, but I would put it closer to me saying: "If you want to learn physics, take physics... but the classroom doesn't end at the classroom door" whereas you are simply saying "If you want to learn physics, take physics".

  37. Tyler Crissman 2011.09.27

    *Slight correction to that last statement of my last post: I would put it closer to me saying: "If you want to learn physics, take physics... but the classroom doesn't end at A classroom door" whereas you are simply saying "If you want to learn physics, take physics"

  38. Michael Black 2011.09.27

    Cory, are you going to ramp up the blog posts directed toward the renovation as the vote gets closer?

    Do you feel that any of the discussion on the Madville Times has made a difference in people's minds or has it been a waste of bandwidth (the minds have already been made up)?

  39. Douglas Wiken 2011.09.27

    How many exercycles can be stuck in a 20 x 30 room? 20 perhaps? That is 10 more than can play basketball on a 50 x100 area or whatever BB floors are these days.

    Want to learn physics, mechanics, gear ratios, torque, think about an exercycle or treadmill.

    How many students can be in a swimming pool at one time? How many South Dakotans die each year because they never learned to swim? How many die each year because they never got on the A-Team for basketball or football.

    How many physics students have destroyed their knees, ruptured their spleens, suffered concussions because they took physics or even math for that matter?

    The highschool or gradeschool course most used in these forums is not stuffing a ball in a net, kicking a football or passing a football, but typing or keyboarding depending on time of learning.

    Dumping taxpayer money into more spectator sports facilities is a huge misuse and mindless diversion of scarce taxpayer resources.

  40. Tyler Crissman 2011.09.27

    Uh wow Doug, you're kind of all across the board on this one, so let me see if I can decipher what you're saying...

    In your first statement, you seem to be advocating personal fitness. I actually do agree with you, we need to increase personal fitness of the general populace, but you do realize that personal fitness and physical education are two different things, right? Personal fitness is what you do on your own time to stay healthy, and generally you get a basis on how to increase your personal fitness in a physical education class. As a sidenote, what's the difference between running around on a basketball court, or running on a treadmill? Seems to me like you're running both places, yet you get more out of being on a basketball court...

    Next up, I'm not quite sure the statement you're going for with your swimming pool analogy... are you advocating for personal fitness? Trying to advocate for swimming lessons? All of these can be learned in a physical education, or "spectator sport facility".

    After that, you verge into another completely different matter and try to differentiate between physics students and athletes... you do understand the concept of a "student" athlete, right? You can take physics (thus be a physics students), and still play a various sport, and still risk injury. To find out how many physics students have risked injury, you'll have to ask a student athlete that question.

    Dumping taxpayer money into more spectator sport facilities isn't the issue. In Madison, from what I understand, the gym renovation issue is being discussed along with remodeling the school. It sounds like you're going to have to do one to get the other. Finally, if you want more taxpayer dollars for more schools, don't build any more "spectator sport facilities". Watch all the little towns in South Dakota dry up to do the lack of athletics... you will have plenty more taxpayer dollars if there are less schools under your thinking.

  41. John Hess 2011.09.27

    If you support the gym there's no reason to get all hyped up. The thing is gonna pass. Doug makes good points there are more efficient ways to create a healthy environment for all the kids, but we know that's not what this is about. Little towns dry up for many more reasons than athletics, like jobs and affordable places to shop. With these school improvements Madison remains a long way from being a competitive community. What's next on the list? New grocery store? Big box retailer? If you think the kids deserve this school the rest of the community deserves better jobs and more affordable places to shop.

  42. Tyler Crissman 2011.09.27

    You're right John, jobs do impact dwindling communities, but many times, small communities will rally around a school and by default a sports team when they have nothing left. If you lose the school and thus the sports teams, the nail has generally been put in the coffin of a small town.

  43. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.27

    John, on your question: it sounds like classic negotiation tactics. Propose something outlandish, take the 1 in 100 chance it might fly, then propose what you really had in mind and package it as compromise. This plan isn't really compromise; it's a return to the 2007 new gym plan, almost right down to the dollar figure. Clever.

  44. Douglas Wiken 2011.09.27

    "Uh wow Doug, you’re kind of all across the board on this one, so let me see if I can decipher what you’re saying…"

    Good thing you don't work in the CIA as a decoder...not even as Fargo North, Decoder.

    Heaven forbid that PE would lead to physical fitness.

    Physical exercise of the kind on stationary machines has been shown to increase grades and

  45. Douglas Wiken 2011.09.27

    Check the latest Atlantic monthly on the meaning of "student athlete".

    Previous post locked up at "and". The end would have been " and physical health." That kind of "PE" program was an PBS special on educational innovations that actually worked. There were several more.

    As for this little bit of snark:
    "but you do realize that personal fitness and physical education are two different things, right? Personal fitness is what you do on your own time to stay healthy, and generally you get a basis on how to increase your personal fitness in a physical education class. "

    Defining your irrelevant terms in irrelevant ways is almost as good as an outright strawman argument.

    I do not remember learning anything of any consequence in any PE course I ever had unless of course, "Jocks and coaches are not the smartest people in the world even if they may be among the most arrogant" counts.

  46. Michael Black 2011.09.27

    To get real exercise you need a radical trainer...Operation Osmin

  47. caheidelberger Post author | 2011.09.27

    Michael: you're kidding, right? I get lots of real exercise. I've never spent a penny on a trainer. I feel great.

    I did pay tuition for the best P.E. classes I ever took: camping and canoeing with Linda Sandness at SDSU. Great lifelong learning activity. No spectators, all doers. Good campfire stories, too.

  48. Michael Black 2011.09.27

    Did you follow the link? It is well worth the entertainment.

  49. Michael Black 2011.09.27

    No sense of humor at all...

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