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Colorado Movie Shooter 12 Drops in Bucket: Half-Staff Forever

Last updated on 2013.09.12

I come home from France to find the Stars and Stripes at half-mast. I am disappointed.

The Center for Disease Control says that we murder 16,800 people in America each year. 11,500 of those victims die by firearm. That's an average of 31 of us shot to death every day. By year-end, Friday's death toll in Aurora will be a mere 0.1% drop in America's bloody bucket.

I suggest two proper responses to this half-staff nonsense. Use the moment to make a political statement (everyone else is) by defying the President and the Governor and, to some extent, the killer by flying your flag at full mast.

Or lower your flag to mourning position and leave it there, always, to acknowledge the utter unexceptionality of the Aurora shootings in the midst of America's ongoing gun violence.

Related Reading: Messrs. Wiken, Kallis, Ehrisman, and Newquist find little hope for positive problem-solving discourse to arise from the ritualized show-grief we practice to assuage our consciences over the violence we teach our children to embrace. Mr. White falls into an original-sin despair that absolves conservatives of seeking policy solutions. And Gordon and Ed are just Gordon and Ed, compensating for their failed worldview.

156 Comments

  1. Dougal 2012.07.23

    The most truthful statement on this came yesterday from Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who said there is no public mandate to bother with proposing gun control. She’s right (does the name Harvey Milk ring a bell?). Frankly, the Colorado massacre wasn’t bad or big enough. As long as goons for the gun lobby continue to reign virtually unchallenged in off line and online commentaries with their illogical pandering and paranoia, there will be nutjobs carrying assault rifles and pistols to make bigger and bigger splashes in America’s 24/7 news cycle. There is no will in the American psyche to reverse this culture of deadly violence. Not today and maybe never.

  2. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "There is no will in the American psyche to reverse this culture of deadly violence."

    As long as there is a Federal Department of Education, you are right.

  3. Aaron Heidelberger 2012.07.23

    That theater was a "gun free zone"............well that worked well.

  4. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    Choose your opponent for today, Steve, or go away.

  5. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    And, Aaron? You're way over your head in here.

  6. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.23

    Aaron's logic: Schools are drug-free zones, but kids still get arrested for bringing drugs to school; therefore, everyone should be able to carry drugs at school.

    America has the fewest restrictions of any Western nation on carrying firearms in public (I'm guessing—I welcome correction). By one count, only South Africa, Colombia, and Thailand have more firearm homocides annually. Aaron's thesis that we'd be safer if it were easier to carry firearms is crap.

  7. WayneB 2012.07.23

    I found this Harpers commentary especially impactful. I encourage everyone to read it and contemplate it.

    There's a lot to digest about American culture - much that should get examined at times like these. Why did Holmes do this? Why did nobody - the professors and advisors, his friends or family - see the warning signs? He had no criminal or mental health history - nothing worse than traffic violations. Nothing would indicate he should be on government watch lists or any of that.

    This guy wanted to cause harm. The evidence of explosives and flammables at his home suggest he was willing and perhaps capable to go much much further. I still keenly sympathize for the loss of life, but frankly, I'm relieved it was just 12 people killed, rather than the hundreds which could've been killed in a McVeigh-styled bombing.

  8. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "Aaron’s thesis that we’d be safer if it were easier to carry firearms is crap."

    So you Obama supporters do want to ban guns.

    [CAH: Notice that I said no such thing and advocate no such policy. Neither does President Obama. #redherring]

  9. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Grade 1 - "Super Me"

    Grade One focuses on three of the senses – taste, touch, and smell. Students learn that their bodies are precious "machines" that enable them to have healthy and active lives. Students use a stethoscope to listen to the heart, the engine that runs the "Super Machine." Using the magnifying glass, students study their taste buds and later, perform an experiment to find which part of the tongue experiences sweet, sour, etc… Students participate in a variety of discussions designed to build their assertiveness skills and their self-esteem.

    http://www.wflboces.org/departments.cfm?subpage=1176

  10. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    Obama supporters want universal mental health care so you and Aaron are identified early.

  11. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    WayneB, indeed, this is perhaps a better time to pause and pay close attention to what did happen than it is to listen to our relentless egos prattle on and on about what woulda, shoulda, coulda happened. There are profound stories coming out. Let's listen.

    I will say that those who are blaming the victims for not being prepared enough to handle this situation properly and speculating as to how- had they themselves only been there - they could have saved the day are simply delusional. But then, considering the identity of those making such claims, that's not really new news, is it?

    [CAH: Excellent point, Bill. How can we call ourselves a civilized society if we tell people, "Sure, you can go out, but you better bring firearms wherever you go"?]< ?em>

  12. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    Different dealio, Steve: those are for non-whites.

  13. Aaron Heidelberger 2012.07.23

    A drug free zone is not a good analogy. How does bringing drugs into a drug free zone protect others? It is good thing this wasn't gun free zone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTct7OB_n78&feature=player_embedded

    [CAH: No, perfectly valid analogy. You're saying, "Policy zero-X doesn't stop use of X; therefore, we should not have Policy anti-X." Larry's right: your logic leads to body armor and drugs for everyone.]

  14. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Cory, what is wrong with a Movie Theatre having the property rights to allow citizens to protect the safety of their children attending a movie by implementing their Second Amendment right?

    And if it true that the Colorado theatre did not allow that right, then the business better have good insurance.

    [CAH: Seriously? Are listening to yourself? Think: What happens to your insurance premiums when you invite people to bring loaded weapons onto your property?]

  15. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Aaron, which Amendment provides for the right to bear drugs?

  16. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    full metal jackets and drugs for everybody!

  17. Fred Garvin 2012.07.23

    "acknowledge the utter unexceptionality of the Aurora shootings."

    Actually, random murders are VERY rare; random shootings of more than one person are soooo rare as to be well, worthy of a weekend+ of frantic all day & night "news" coverage". And another opportunity for liberals to use senseless violence to further an agenda.

    Check the FBL crime stats.

  18. Fred Garvin 2012.07.23

    "does the name Harvey Milk ring a bell?)"

    Sure does--another victim of a liberal murderer who used his gov't issued gun to kill Harvey Milk.

    And of course, another opportunistic liberal (Feinstein) used and still uses the murders to further her own political career.

    The ironies are endless.

  19. Fred Garvin 2012.07.23

    Follow Cory's logic:

    This murderer used the internet to learn how to create household bombs and booby-trap his apartment. BILLIONS of people (including the French) use the internet for criminal purposes.

    So, let's ban the internet, or limit its use to licensed users?

    That's not a logical argument--its an emotion-based political agenda.

    [CAH: not my logic: again, nowhere am I advocating a ban on guns. I'm rejecting Aaron's thesis that looser gun laws make us safer. Reality is a harsh mistress.]

  20. mike 2012.07.23

    I enjoyed the movie! Not as good as The Dark Knight but it was still good if over long and slow at the begining. TDK just had better plot, acting and characters. It was much more believable than TDKR.

  21. Eve Fisher 2012.07.23

    If you believe that the world would be safer if everyone was allowed to carry a weapon, then obviously you should support every country's right to have nuclear weapons.
    Secondly, those who say, "well, if those people in the theater had had guns, they'd have been able to defend themselves" - get real. I can assure you that in real life, under real stress conditions (i.e., not on the firing range), most people are lousy shots. The adrenaline and the fear make them shoot at anything that moves - including a whole lot of innocent people. And they only get worse when their life is in danger, and when they're in the dark, and when people are going hysterical all around them.

  22. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Fred, follow this logic... we US citizens appear to agree that our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms doesn't extend to our being able to each individually own predator drones, rocketlaunchers, hand grenades, etc. And that if one is going to conceal carry, s/he needs a permit.

    Is that correct?

    If so, then you should be able to put the rest of it together on your own.

  23. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "1st and 10th, Steve."

    Based on the right of religion larry? That is New Age Religion?

  24. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "US citizens appear to agree that our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms doesn’t extend to our being able to each individually own predator drones, rocketlaunchers, hand grenades, etc. And that if one is going to conceal carry, s/he needs a permit.

    Is that correct?

    If so, then you should be able to put the rest of it together on your own."

    That science and technology has obsoleted the Constitution? Or the moral depravity of humanity who believe we need to have such objects in this world has obsoleted the Constitution?

  25. Fred Garvin 2012.07.23

    "Secondly, those who say, “well, if those people in the theater had had guns, they’d have been able to defend themselves” – get real. I can assure you that in real life, under real stress conditions (i.e., not on the firing range), most people are lousy shots."

    No more real than those who say, "If we had more gun regulation, Aurora would not happen." Get real. I can assure you, that if we banned ALL firearms absolutely, Auroras would still happen.

  26. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Aaron, do you have the video of when those two guys walked into an internet cafe with gas masks and flack jackets on, laid down a layer of tear gas, hozed everybody down with a few shotgun blasts, and then pulled out assault rifles with 100 round magazines and started executing people? If so, which old guy with a little pistol took those guys out?

    Just keepin/ it real, man.

  27. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Fred, are you going to ignore my 2nd Amendment question? If so, why?

  28. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Fred, my 2nd Amendment Question repeated: "we US citizens appear to agree that our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms doesn’t extend to our being able to each individually own predator drones, rocketlaunchers, hand grenades, etc. And that if one is going to conceal carry, s/he needs a permit.

    Is that correct?"

  29. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    Thanks for stopping by, Fred: bye now.

  30. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    I have another (related) one, Fred. Do the actions of the Colorado shooter constitute "a well regulated militia?" Was he a militia of one? Can there be a militia of one? (...okay, I guess that's 3 more questions.)

  31. Aaron Heidelberger 2012.07.23

    Bill would rather have people bring a phone to a gun fight, how did that work out? I would rather have a small pistol where you might be out gunned, but you will most likely have the element of surprise. Guns in the hands of bad guys kill everyone, guns in the hands of good guys kill bad guys.

  32. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    And Bill, you have not address whether the obsolecense of Second Amendment is due to science and technology or human depravity. Certainly a righteous person could own a nuclear bomb and we all would be safe.

  33. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Do the actions of the Colorado shooter constitute “a well regulated militia?”

    No it constitutes one indoctrinated with the New Age Theological principle called artifical self-esteem.

  34. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Bill, instead of banning Bibles and guns in schools, perhaps we should ban science textbooks. It was science that greated nukes and it was the banning of Bibles that has cut loose depraved humans.

  35. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    .41 full metal jacket: this is a god.

  36. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    50 in a brick, bill: buy a bunch.

  37. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    The pragmatic left will never create their Utopia because they are not evolving, they are sinking deeper into depravity as they elevate their self-esteem.

  38. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    body armor sucks when it's 104 out.

  39. Anne 2012.07.23

    That's right. She had to come to the U.S. to get killed.

  40. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    next, canada will want to ban global warming.

  41. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    The question then Fred, is, should it be okay (while wearing a gas mask, a flack jacket, a bullet proof helment, kevlar leg and neck protection, etc.) to carry a loaded assault rifle with a 100 round magazine, a shotgun, two glocks and couple cans of tear gas into a crowded movie theatre? Is that the kind of gear you and Aarron think everybody should be wearing when they go to the movies or out to Cabela's to do a little shopping?

    i.e. when you guys walk around dressed like that, should we as a society feel safer, or less safe?

    By the way, you two do walk around like that, right?

    And if not, why not?

    How about you, Sibby?

    What color is your suit of armor, man?

    Or, conversely, Fred, can we agree that the "militia" needs to be a lot bit more "well regulated" than that?

  42. Anne 2012.07.23

    Larry and Bill, don't you just hate these days when someone leaves the gate to the funny farm open?

  43. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    "Guns in the hands of bad guys kill everyone, guns in the hands of good guys kill bad guys." Oh, please, Aaron. Who is it you think you're talking to here? There is not one fragment of that sentence that makes any sense. It's the kind of thing stupid people say and other stupid people think is smart.

  44. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    Pat Powers is blogging again you say, Anne?

  45. Aaron Heidelberger 2012.07.23

    Answer this Bill what would you do if you were sitting in that theater? and how is that better then what an armed citizen could do?

  46. Justin 2012.07.23

    Where is there anything that says the theater was a gun free zone? There may be but I haven't seen it.

    I did hear somebody say that no permit is needed for open carry. That isn't true in Colorado.

    In SD as a business owner I can have a policy against concealed guns in my business but not openly carried guns.

  47. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    wearing a .41 in an underarm holster when it's 104 out really sucks.

  48. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Unlike you, Aaron, I have absolutely no idea what I would do in a chaotic situation like that. I like to think I would be as brave as many of the people in the theatre were.

    It's my understanding many lives were saved, some at the sacrifice of their own. Have you been listening to their stories? Or are you spending all your time in some imagined circumstance that bottom line had little or nothing to do with you?

    People like you, Arron just have to imagine themselves as the hero, it seems, completely disregarding the real heroes that were there, and instead, blaming the consequences of the actions of a madman on his victims.

    That's delusional.

    Wake up, man.

  49. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    and neighborhood watch personnel are so danged competent...

    i can see it now: "free movie admission for people wearing firearms with armor-piercing capability!"

  50. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "How about you, Sibby? "

    I am waiting for your answer. Why is the Second Amendment obsolete...sicence and technology or the depravity of humanity?

  51. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    How long does it take Planned Parenthood to kill 12 humans?

  52. Justin 2012.07.23

    * not intended to be a factual statement

  53. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    here we go 'round the mulberry bush
    so early in the morning

  54. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    How about if we get teh United Nations to pass an International Law that bans anybody from owning Guns, nukes, tanks, rocket launchers, grenades, and anything else that is considered a weapon. No more armies, not more police, no more gun deaths...right?

  55. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    ron paul was hitler's personal doctor.

  56. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Sibby, I don't maintain that the 2nd Amendment is obsolete. I am, in fact, a defender of it.

  57. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    what bill? you're no son of mine.

  58. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    President Jefferson said a Constitutional Convention should happen every generation: President Lincoln killed the current document.

  59. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.23

    If we have to carry guns to be safe, we have failed to build a civilized society.

  60. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    (which also bought alaska, btw)

  61. Justin 2012.07.23

    SD already has the most NRA friendly (written) gun laws in the country.

    I wish the people could get excited about good government with transparency and oversight given our current system that benefits nobody other than politicians trying to avoid jail.

    Look at Charlie's dodging in the other thread. In response to questioning ethics oversight, Charlie started talking about the NRA even though I never mentioned it. When a SD Republican leader is asked any difficult question, immediately the conversation goes to gun haters and baby killers.

    When the people take the same tact and think they are representing themselves well, I wish I had a Border Collie around to herd them up.

  62. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Aaron, maybe you should take that question up with, Jesus. You're a fan of his, yes?

  63. Aaron Heidelberger 2012.07.23

    @Cory, then we have failed because cops have been carrying guns for a long time now.

  64. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.23

    No, Aaron. The fewer people who have to carry guns, the better. Moving from a society where basic daily safety requires everyone to pack heat to one in which the burden of such vigilance may fall to just a few trained public servants is progress.

  65. Aaron Heidelberger 2012.07.23

    Cory, I agree. The problem is that as a society transitions from "safe" to "unsafe" who decides when and where we should be packing heat? The individual or the government.

    Bill, yes I'm a fan of Jesus. David had a sling and cut the head off a Giant. I would say a sling was the pocket pistol of the day.

  66. Justin 2012.07.23

    Well I don't think you can take a slingshot into a courthouse here but you can take a gun.

  67. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    i just got a wrist-rocket for my birthday: i'm shopping for pellets filled with napalm online...you know, for fishing.

  68. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    lake herman filled with blue-green algae yet?

  69. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "Sibby, I don’t maintain that the 2nd Amendment is obsolete. I am, in fact, a defender of it."

    Then when are you going to start defending it? You have been attacking it for years. Now anwer my questions.

  70. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "If we have to carry guns to be safe, we have failed to build a civilized society."

    That is right Cory. We have gone down hill, not progressed. This is why we need the Second Amendment more than ever.

    Cory, how long does it take Planned Parenthood to kill 12 humans?

  71. Tim Higgins 2012.07.23

    Think: What happens to your insurance premiums when you invite people to bring loaded weapons onto your property?]

    Actually not much of anything Corey. There are thousands of people being invited to come on to private property each and every year, and there insurance premiums do not change. Pheasant hunters, deer hunters, water fowl hunters, etc.

  72. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Will somebody please explain to Aaron that Jesus and King David were two different guys? (Are you sure you're related to this Aaron, Cory?)

  73. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Sibby, I am defending it. Especially the misinterpretation and application of it.

  74. Tim Higgins 2012.07.23

    Any body posting here see the video of the 71 year old man in an internet cafe in Fl? Pretty good arugument for the 2nd amendment. No one except the thugs were injured. Proof as far as I am concerned that citizens carrying weapons save lives, and can stop a criminal act in progress.

  75. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Bill, your interpretatin is that it does not exist and it should not be applied. Your argument is that since we now have gone beyond guns and into nukes, it no longer applies, even to guns.

  76. sampeil 2012.07.23

    Tim,
    How often do armed citizens save the day as in the case with the cafe in Florida? What type of firearm did the robber in this case carry?

  77. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.23

    Fine anecdote, Tim, but the overall statistics say that no, looser gun laws and more carriers of guns do not make a safer society with less murder.

    When I was growing up, I wanted to be Han Solo with a big laser blaster on my hip. But Solo was living in the precarious and lawless world of smugglers. Do we all want to live as if we were on the run from Jabba the Hutt?

  78. Dave 2012.07.23

    In the times that I've had to get up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom in my own darkened house, I'm lucky if I can find the light switch on the first try.

    The last place I would want to be is in a darkened movie theatre filled with an audience packing heat. I think it's pretty much a given if that had been the case the Aurora -- in a poorly lit auditorium filled with tear gas and a perpetrator dressed in black wearing body armor -- many more innocent people would have died ... at the hands of everyday citizens trying to fulfill their second amendment right.

  79. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.23

    Tactically, you're right, Dave. You show that the gun-worshippers think violence plays the way it does in the movies, with close-ups, costuming, and ominous music to make perfectly clear who the bad guys are.

    Imagine Dave's scenario: dark, smoky, noisy... bedlam. Suppose you're not the fastest draw. By the tim you get your gun out, safety off, and are ready to peek up from the floor and consider a shot, you see and hear shots in two different places. Which one's the good guy? Which one's the bad guy?

  80. Tim Higgins 2012.07.23

    @sampeil

    I do notknow the answer to your first question, but I'm sure it has happened before, and it will happen again.

    As far as the weapons, one was armed with a baseball bat, not sure if he had a firearm or not. The other definatley had a hand gun and was waving it around and pointing it at clients in the cafe.

    As far as I am concerned, Dave you might want to turn on a night light it you have that much trouble finding your way to the toilet in your own home.

  81. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    Sibby, my interpretation is very straightforward, and related word for word as it appears in the Bill of Rights: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    I advocate for: 1. A well regulated militia 2. The security of a free state and finally 3. the right of the people to bear arms (toward those aforementioned ends).

    I do not advocate for the Colorado shooter's rights to the latter, because he had no intention of securing the former. He was neither a member of any militia, nor (obviously) was he trying to secure anyone's liberty (including his own). His was a perverse exercise of the right and hence a right he surrendered the moment he bore arms with intentions counter to those detailed in the Amendment.

  82. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Bill, it does not say that you have to be in a militia to have the right, "the People" goes beyond the scope of a "militia".

    Better stick to the argument that it has become obsolete due to science and the depravity of humanity due to its rejection of God and His Word.

  83. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    "many more innocent people would have died"

    No, the guy standing in front of a crowd that is packing heat would have had pounds of lead hitting him. Certainly would have been a major distraction.

  84. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Larry, how much are we paying Planned Parenthood to kill millions of human beings?

  85. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    If there were no reason for a well regulated militia, Sibby, there would be no reason for the Amendment. Why would those words be there if they didn't mean anything? Can you name any other part of the Constitution that uses meaningless phrases that don't speak to the main point?

  86. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    You may have broken federal law, Steve:

    "The Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act makes it illegal to intentionally use force, the threat of force, or physical obstruction to injure, intimidate, interfere with, or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with individuals obtaining or providing reproductive health care services. FACE also punishes anyone who intentionally damages or destroys a facility that provides reproductive health services."

    http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/face_act.html

  87. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Bill, "the People" knowing how to shoot was necessary for a well trained militia does not mean that only militia members could have a firearm. There is nothing in American history that supports the premise that only militia members could bear arms.

  88. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    Abortion is not reproductive health Larry, it ends reproduction.

  89. Steve Sibson 2012.07.23

    No BIll, only if you were between 17 and 45. You are still in a hole. Prove that the founders banned guns, unless you were a member of the militia.

    larry, I was not advocating attacks on Planned Parenthood. I was making the point the Planned Parenthood kills more humans than those who use guns.

  90. larry kurtz 2012.07.23

    "Guns don't kill humans, Americans kill humans." Michael Moore.

  91. Bill Fleming 2012.07.23

    I don't intend to prove that, Sibby. That's your claim, not mine. You're the one who's claiming the Amendment is obsolete. To me, it means the same as it always has.

  92. Bob Newland 2012.07.23

    As long as you folks endorse the policy that we are not competent to determine the proper stuff to put into our bodies, your crying over a few people shot in Colorado rings hollow. Tens of thousands of people are doing time for doing nothing that a sane person considers a crime, but you don't cry over that.

  93. John 2012.07.24

    cah "The fewer people who have to carry guns, the better. Moving from a society where basic daily safety requires everyone to pack heat to one in which the burden of such vigilance may fall to just a few trained public servants is progress."

    'espalin that to the family members of the 69 victims killed at the Utøya massacre in Norway in 2011. And 'esplain why Switzerland has a government issued automatic rifle in virtually the home of every able bodied man. The point is - it's the culture; our juvenile culture is more concerned with faux freedom than with civic responsibility and accountability.

  94. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    Norway: yup, bad things happen everywhere. But look at the big picture: Norway's murder rate is one eighth of ours, their incarceration rate is a tenth, and their recidivism rate is a fifth.

    Switzerland: ah, they are living out the true spirit of the Second Amendment, arming a national militia.

    I agree whole-heartedly that something is wrong with our culture. We fixate on guns, which are not the solution to any of our major social problems.

  95. Charlie Hoffman 2012.07.24

    Cory American's don't fixate on guns. How can you honestly say that three percent of the general public who are insane and commit horrible crimes designate the rest of us into a grouped sociopathic mind set? Certainly there are also some who carry around loaded firearms everywhere they go but the normal law abiding American trusts law inforcement to bring certain and quick justice to anyone breaking the law. How many people die on highways in America every year? And how many people are murdered with guns every year in America. 6720 highway deaths in the first quarter of 2012. That would lead into 24,000 for the entire year. For the entire year of 2010 there were around 12,000 gun murders. Outlawing automobiles obviously would save more lives than outlawing guns.

    One would suspect that those American's who don't own a firearm would be fixated with guns though. I get that for sure Cory.

  96. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    Charlie, please clarify: what do you think I mean when I say "fixate on guns"?

  97. Charlie Hoffman 2012.07.24

    To me being fixated with something means I think about it all the time and am enamored with it. Maybe I'm different than the normal American but the only time I have ever been fixated with a gun was when two of them were stolen from me.

  98. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    Charlie, in our politics, I think we are fixated with guns. The amount of money and influence coming from the gun lobby is wholly out of proportion to the relevance of guns to the major problems we have to solve at the state and national level. If you and your Pierre colleagues were half as quick to respond to threats from lobbyists calling for more education funding as you are to respond to NRA and SDGO when they call for more guns in our pockets, we'd see much better social results.

  99. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    I'd also cite a broader cultural fixation captured in our entertainment. Our films portray guns as central tools in solving problems with much higher frequency than guns solve problems in our daily lives.

  100. Charlie Hoffman 2012.07.24

    You have made valid points here Cory which I believe the majority of us also have reservations. Last year when the open ended carry concealed bill; which would have made the permitting process moot, received a Nay vote from the majority of the legislature many of the NRA sponsored legislators took political pot shots from a certain group. Common sense does prevail here in South Dakota. Trust me I am not a lifer politician but will be a lifer South Dakotan so any legislation which I feel might not be good for my grandkids or myself in the future will get the axe if I have anything to do about it.

  101. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    Gun shops are reporting only tiny bumps in sales: anyone who is going to kill someone with a gun already has one or sixteen.

    Newland is right: South Dakota needs to disarm her legislature and return to a kinder, gentler time when civil liberties meant something.

  102. Charlie Hoffman 2012.07.24

    Back at you later Cory. Tomato's need some watering and fertilizing. On another note we will find the highest amount of corn zeroed out in history this year and that spells trouble for many industries which rely on corn for a portion or all of their business. True wealth only comes from the land, and this year our wealth is going to be throttled back in a big way. ( I love changing the subject; but that is what guys with perpetual ADD do!)

  103. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    Colorado's rabid red state legislature also killed civil unions as well as a bunch of theater goers.

  104. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    A guy's got to work, Charlie! I appreciate your taking time to wrestle with tough questions here. Enjoy the garden.

    While Charlie spreads a different form of fertilizer, let me note that I'm not convinced common sense always prevails here in South Dakota. We are as prone to bad legislation as any other fallible human beings.

  105. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    "That’s your claim, not mine."

    No Bill, it was your logic:

    1) The right to bear arms includes nukes
    2) Citizens can't have nukes
    3) Citizens can't bear arms, including concealed carry.

  106. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    "For the entire year of 2010 there were around 12,000 gun murders"

    How many humans were killed by Planned Parenthood in 2010?

    Yes there is something terribly wrong with our culture.

  107. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    "Common sense does prevail here in South Dakota."

    Common sense means compromising rights for the sake of safety? What did Benjamin Franklin say about that? (Here is where Bill comes in with, but there were no nukes back then)

  108. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Do you support citizens having nukes, Sibby? How about predator drones?

  109. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Do you carry your assault rifle with you every where you go?

  110. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    If not, why not? Like I said, it's your argument, not mine. I understand what the 2nd Amendment says and am not lobbying to change it. If you believe you have a right to keep tactical nukes, preditor drones and assault rifles in your basement, the rest of us have a right to know who you are and what you're up to. Because we need to be sure you don't intend to limit our liberty or security. Call us the "well regulated militia" if it helps you get you mind around the concept, Steve.

  111. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    Bill, I would trust someone like Jesus Christ with nukes and drones, but not Romney or Obama.

  112. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    "I understand what the 2nd Amendment says and am not lobbying to change it."

    You changed the meaning of "well regulated":

    "Call us the “well regulated militia” "

  113. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Not keeping track of who has muskets would be "unregulated" Sibby. And why in the world would Jesus ever need a nuke? Wasn't he the one who told Peter to put his sword away?

  114. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    Expect funding for drones to patrol South Dakota highways soon, boys: travel only on overcast days and invest in cloaking technologies.

  115. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    "...one if by land, two if by Google."

  116. sampeil 2012.07.24

    Tim,
    Do you think the number of cases where an armed citizen shoots an attacker is greater than the number of cases where an innocent person is shot due to mistaken identity or accident?

    The following link discusses the use of guns for self-defense:

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

    "Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens

    Using data from surveys of detainees in six jails from around the nation, we worked with a prison physician to determine whether criminals seek hospital medical care when they are shot. Criminals almost always go to the hospital when they are shot. To believe fully the claims of millions of self-defense gun uses each year would mean believing that decent law-abiding citizens shot hundreds of thousands of criminals. But the data from emergency departments belie this claim, unless hundreds of thousands of wounded criminals are afraid to seek medical care. But virtually all criminals who have been shot went to the hospital, and can describe in detail what happened there."

  117. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Which one did you get, Kurtz?
    How is it working?
    Has Sibby tried to tap you yet?

  118. Tim Higgins 2012.07.24

    Bill, I know your question was not adressed to me, but I do carry a concealed weapon with me almost all the time.

  119. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    "Not keeping track of who has muskets would be “unregulated” Sibby."

    There you go changing the meaning of the founders "regulated" again.

    Bill, would you trust Romney with nukes?

  120. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    Would you trust Dan Lederman with nukes, Sibby?

  121. Rorschach 2012.07.24

    The way I see it, some nut job is gonna go on a rampage from time to time and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

    But I'm not gonna delegate to some politician the decision of when I should fly my flag at half-staff. I have noticed that politicians are completely arbitrary about when they recommend lowering the flag. This death - yes. This death - no comment. I have noticed that in SD government flags get lowered more often when old Republicans die than when old Democrats die, and it doesn't seem to be simply because there are more old Republicans here, but perhaps a function of which decedent is a friend (or a friend of a friend) to the governor. I suspect when Charlie Hoffman dies SD flags will fly half staff. When Ed Iron Cloud dies probably not. Arbitrary. Subjective. When politicians run anything, including flagpoles, you can't count on them playing it straight.

  122. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Tim, do you intend to shoot someone with it?

  123. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    "Caller yesterday had interesting idea: mandating a doctor's note certifying psychological stability in order to purchase an assault weapon." @davidsirota.

  124. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Is there a similar certification required to join the armed services and/or the police, FBI, etc., Larry? ...Larry? ...Anyone? ...Anyone? ...Buehler?

    How about being elected to public office? Sanity test? Or no?

  125. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    Curious, Tim, if I may ask, how many times have you used that weapon?

  126. Steve Sibson 2012.07.24

    The restated Second Amendment:

    You have the right to bear arms, but only when you use it.

  127. Tim Higgins 2012.07.24

    Corey: Iuse the weapon quite often. I hunt with it, and I practice every chance I have.

    Bill: I have never had to use it to defend myself, but it is reassuring to know that I have it if I need it.

    Come or break into my house univited and threaten my family or property you will be met with deadly force.

  128. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    Tim clearly had to pass neither a psych eval nor an IQ test to get a permit.

  129. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    Hunt, practice—cool. But the concealed aspect... the main use there seems to be to protect oneself from unsuspecting bad dudes (because when you're hunting wabbits, you need to conceal yourself, not just your weapon). Have you ever had cause to use it in a setting where you were carrying concealed?

    Note that I'm not setting up some argument to say you shouldn't carry it. I love to wear my Swiss Army knife (on my belt, rarely concealed), even though I don't use it that much.

  130. Tim Higgins 2012.07.24

    Never had to use or was never threatened when it was in my possession (sp?) but if I need it I have it (No I do not have it concealed when attending city commission meetings).

    I very rarely take shots at posters here but in Larry's case I will make exception. Nope changed my mind, I will not stoop to his level.

  131. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.07.24

    [Tweet! Flag on Larry! I know Tim. He's neither dumb nor crazy. Mistaken on various issues, but sufficiently competent to handle a firearm.]

    Here's where my thinking is going, Tim: I know that a normal cost-benefit analysis doesn't make perfect sense with a concealed weapon. The one time you use it, the one time you save your wife or children from harm, its value becomes infinite. But we make an awfully big deal of protecting a right that almost no one really uses for its ultimate purpose. The tangible positive results of owning firearms seem minute compared to the basic everyday needs of most Americans.

    That observation may not tell us anything about the sanctity or wisdom of the Second Amendment. I haven't made much use of the Third Amendment lately, but I'm not calling for its repeal.

  132. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    So the answer is yes, then Tim? By carrying a concealed weapon, you intend to shoot someone with it (not everyone, of course, just a "bad guy." ...even so...) I think it's important to be clear about this. A handgun is not a security blanket, right? p.s. thanks, Tim, for being candid.

  133. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    Wearing a .41 Magnum when it's 104 out sucks; but it does protect me from christians.

  134. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    Kurtz, you are so full of baloney sometimes. Cut back on those cactus buttons, bro.

  135. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    I worry for my daughters living in Rapid City, Bill: should I buy them firearms?

  136. Bill Fleming 2012.07.24

    No, introduce them to my kids and their pals instead.

  137. larry kurtz 2012.07.24

    They know each other other already: theater people.

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