The NAACP booed Mitt Romney Wednesday for telling them he'd repeal ObamaCare. He probably wanted them to boo.
Yesterday the NAACP booed Vice President Joe Biden... for finishing his speech.
Of course, when the Vice President of the United States stands up for expanding voting rights and empowering more citizens, everyone should want to hear more:
On civil rights, your raison d'être &ndash the reason for our existence. And by the way, I want to remind everybody of one thing &ndash remember what this at its core was all about &ndash why this organization at its core was all about. It was the franchise. It was about the right to vote.
Because when you have the right to vote, you have the right to change things.
And we &ndash the President and I and Eric [Holder] and all of us &ndash we see a future where those rights are expanded not diminished, where racial profiling is a thing of the past...
Where access to the ballot is expanded and unencumbered, where there are no distinctions made on the basis of race or gender in access to housing and lending.
And so much more. Did you think we'd be fighting these battles again? [Vice President Joe Biden, speech to NAACP, transcript from Jenny Jiang, WhatTheFolly.com, 2012.07.12]
Attorney General Eric Holder criticized one key part of Republican efforts to turn the clock back on voting rights: voter ID laws. Addressing the NAACP Tuesday, he highlighted the clear discrimination written into a Texas voter ID law that favors shooters over students:
Attorney General Eric Holder deviated from his prepared remarks during a speech before the NAACP on Tuesday and called voter ID laws "poll taxes."
"Under the proposed law, concealed handgun licenses would be acceptable forms of photo ID, but student IDs would not," Holder said, referring specifically to the voter ID law passed in Texas. "Many of those without IDs would have to travel great distances to get them, and some would struggle to pay for the documents they might need to obtain them. We call those poll taxes" [emphasis original; Ryan J. Reilly, "Holder Calls Voter ID Laws 'Poll Taxes'," TPM:Muckraker, 2012.07.10]
Team Romney and the Republicans don't care if the NAACP boos; the GOP intends to kick them out of the voting booth. Biden, Holder, and Team Obama want the NAACP and every other American at the table, voting and enjoying an equal shot at the blessings of American liberty.
This guy is our attorney general? Really? And he doesn't get the difference between concealed weapons permits and student id's. Let me explain it to him.
Texas concealed weapons permits are issued by the Govt. College ID's are not. Texas law accepts to ID voter any govt. issued ID (federal or state).
By the way, Holder's own dept. will not accept a college ID to buy a gun.
CH, argue the merits of whether it is good or not to ensure valid voters are not canceled out by an invalid voter but you probably shouldn't advertise our AG is an idiot. He has enough problems right now.
Holder is absolutely correct, it cost my retired mother $200 to get her driver's license. RealID is being sold as stopping the illegals from voting but in reality is is a way to stop the 'wrong' people from voting. You know the wrong ones, the outsiders of the wrong colors, creeds, beliefs and any other prejudice.
I'm having a hard time finding any documentation of voter fraud in Texas significant enough to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters. Apparently I'm not the only one:
http://www.khou.com/news/Political-analyst-Texas-voter-ID-fraud-is-not-rampant-162147655.html
Excerpt:
"Doing the math on that, if you assume that all 62 of the AG’s cases are valid, the percentage of fraud by comparison is .0001 percent.
There is another problem, according to Bob Stein.
“When voter fraud occurs it most likely occurs in this state when somebody illegally requests for somebody other than themselves a mail in ballot,†he said.
We find that in the AG’s cases, as many as 40 involved mail ballots, and that is something that the voter ID law would not prevent."
This GOP strategy is one of their party's greatest sins of late and there is no excuse for it. Troy, please... please don't try to defend the indefensible.
You're a far better American than that.
Right Bill, we need more dead people voting so that young living citizens be forced to take out health insurance or pay a real tax. This poll tax lie is only theatre to fire up the Communist/New Age Marxist base for the Democrats.
Steve, call a cab to take you to Yankton today. Have them send me the bill.
There are claims that when Romney addressed the NAACP, he had flown in a group so he'd get some applause. He also was heard to say, "If you want more free stuff, vote for the other guy.". (stereotyping, condescending, and wrong on the ACA.)
Ah, but Mitt has bigger problems ahead -- a "Bain" of his existence, so to speak, that isn't going away.
AG Holder may be poised to indict former AG Alberto Gonzales:
"Given the facts now revealed in the Tijerina Herrera case, it seems hard to justify why the ATF did not act earlier against him, at least as far back as 2008, when evidence of his illegal gun purchases popped up on the agency’s radar."
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2012/07/texas-case-raises-troubling-questions-about-atf-gunwalking
Sibby, when the money is followed it is termed Election Fraud and not Voter Fraud. The example given by Bill is similar to organized conspiracies most often linked to GOP leaning groups. The GOP has been deep into Election Fraud schemes since the mid 1960's. In the 1980's the GOP was found guilty of voter caging and put under court supervision.
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When the national Democratic party organizes the masses, as Howard Dean did in 2008, they win fair and square. In order to have national GOP wins, there must be organized Election Fraud / voter suppression to limit who can vote. Voter Fraud will not change elections, Election Fraud does. Our SOS office is institutionalizing the fraud system. RealID is an integral part of this fraud system. It is an inconvenient truth based on real facts.
Bill, don't get sanctimonious. I want assurance that everyone who votes is who they say they are. Period. I'll even agree to pay for the government issued ID.
P.S. It really raises my antennae too on why certain people are so adamant in opposition. It says alot.
In most parts of SD with relatively stable populations, the voters are pretty much recognized when they walk up to the election workers.
The myth of voter fraud is another bit of ALEC humbug aimed at preventing those without driver licenses, etc from voting.
SD Driver licensing laws are another ripoff for women who have been married more than once or who were born or married in other states even if they have lived in the same SD house for the last 50 years.
The real irony is that women must have a driver license to get copies of their birth certificates, marriage, and divorce papers, etc. This bullshit can cost anywhere from $15 to several hundred plus all the frustration when often any courthouse employee could vouch for the actual ID.
Why women haven't raised hell about this discriminatory foolishness is beyond me. I am waiting to see if a marriage license if acceptable as an ID for a male.
It says the same thing as it said in the '60s and 70's when people were prohibited from voting Troy. And before that, when Black people and Indians and Women were. "Sanctimonious" is the wrong word. The correct word is "democratic."
Troy, the reason for the RealID has nothing to do with keeping the illegals from voting or stealing my election by the masses. The purpose for RealID is we the people paying to 'cleanup' the ChoicePoint databases. The links to people for data collection and selling purposes were so bad, the Bush Administration at the urging of Papa Bush's companies used the 9/11 tragedy to institute the scam. The need for the RealID was fought successfully when it was presented head-on by Bush. So the RealID has been instituted through the the voter ID scam.
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It is an ALEC pushed program now to eliminate millions of Americans who cannot afford to meet all the rules and the money required. It is a Poll Tax made unconstitutional by the 24th Amendment to the US Constitution in 1964.
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Troy, quit apologizing and pushing the lies of the ALEC based racism movements of the Old South. Someday you will not be needed by the ALEC movement and your right to vote will be stripped 'legally'.
"When the national Democratic party organizes the masses, as Howard Dean did in 2008, they win fair and square."
You must have forgotten about ACORN and the Black Panthers.
Is the real reason why most don't vote in America today, or is it they don't care just as long as they get food stamps, housing assistance, energy assistance, and can have a cigarette in their mouth, a cell phone in their ear, and free sex.
Lesson I learned for the day: Just ignore Sibson.
Sibby, you will never win points bringing up the FOX created scams called ACORN and Black Panthers. Both of these were created by Roger Ailes to get low information Americans excited by black people trying to vote.
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I wish we still had ACORN. It did more good for American than all the FOX broadcasts ever made. At one time in my life I did not understand the mission of ACORN and was concerned by its ability to turn people out to vote. As I researched the organization, I realized it was a group with the power to make all Americans full voting citizens. For this reason the scam news network went after ACORN.
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The 'New' BP movement was a creation of media spin to be also sucked up by low information speakers, to get other low information listeners excited. It makes great hate speech and leave the speech maker looking like a fool.
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I pity the fool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=b7VSkKVqcUs
Can someone tell me if these stats are wrong?
". . . between 2000 and 2010 . . . . just 13 people were convicted of impersonating someone else in order to vote in their name, according to research by Justin Levitt, associate professor of law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles."
Meanwhile,
"Each year, 15 Americans are crushed to death by their furniture or televisions. Fourteen are injured by exploding toilets, and 100 are accidentally set on fire by their doctors during surgery."
Any voter fraud is bad, but if these number are close to accurate, a national id is solution looking for a problem.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48098099/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.UABSlZFFnqc
MJL and others who care, Sibson has followers who get hurt by being sucked in with the cliche'. These low information followers then get to hurt the rest of us. There should never be a drop of their vial ignored. Keep it clean and not personal. Once the Sibbys or Troys see you crack, they feel like they just won. Beat them with facts and tenacity. They will crack and make the Gant / PP type of mistakes.
LK, your facts are close to correct. There has been discussion of numbers based on the laws of each of the 50 states. Because of the ALEC inspired laws and rules, we see Election Fraud advertised as Voter Fraud. The lines have been blurred intentionally.
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A report
~ There were 649 million votes cast in general elections
~ There were 47,000 UFO sightings
~ 441 Americans killed by lightning
~ And there were 13 credible cases of in-person voter impersonation
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Only 13 cases yet since 2001 nearly 1,000 bills that would tighten voting laws have been introduced in 46 states and 24 voting restrictions have passed in 17 states since 2011, says the report.
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And this fall new laws could affect more than 5 million voters in states representing 179 of the 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency.
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The Mitch Daniels, governor of Indiana, has been attempting to reinstate his SOS who was convicted of Voter Fraud while campaigning of the evils of Voter Fraud. He was doing the classic 'do as I say, not as I do'.
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RealID are a scam to help clean datamining systems owned by large corporations like ChoicePoint.
@Bill Maybe 100 years ago when people knew everybody in a community. Troy is right on this, a person has to have an ID in today's society, it is not a burden to expect someone to prove who they are when they go to vote.
Rep. Nelson,
Why is it valid to argue the slippery slope when it comes to the ACA? The story goes something like this: ACA leads to death panels leads to socialistic nation that combines the worst of Greece and the USSR.
Meanwhile, these same people argue it's not valid to argue that a national id card will not create a world where one will be habitually stopped and asked "Ihre papieren, bitte"
Given the track record of the social security number, the latter seems far more likely. Quite frankly, not being able to walk to the grocery store without an ID is a far bigger concern than "not getting the doctor of my choice."
Oh good goddess: asking a 90-year old tribal elder to flash her ID to vote is a sin so hideous even Stace Nelson couldn't commit it.
You Teavangelicals are infecting Montana's political process, too.
Exploding toilets?! Holy crap!
Troy, argue the merits of whether it is good or not to ensure that valid voters are canceled out by the extreme, unneeded and perhaps unconstitutional requirements backed by and being enacted by the GOP.
According to Wendy R. Weiser, co-author of Voting Law Changes in 2011 and Director of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center, the changes to the voting laws enacted since 2008 were unnecessary and often radical. "They especially hurt those who have been historically locked out of our electoral system, like minorities, poor people, and students." She said. "Often they seem precisely targeted to exclude certain voters. After the Florida election fiasco in 2000, it became clear that the rules of election administration could affect outcomes. This time, those rules are being altered in a way that will likely hurt millions."
And I thought the GOP disdained regulations. Why do they adore these new rules that have such a chilling effect on the electoral process?
Troy, do the names Edward Weidenbener, Darwin Spinks, Paul Carroll, Ms. Applewhite, Dorothy Cooper, Thelma Mitchell mean anything to you? Didn't think so.
The last time we went through this discussion I gave you a similar scenario to show how this is very much like a poll tax.
So here's your challenge....again...
You are a single woman who is fresh out of a divorce from an abusive husband. She now needs a photo ID to be considered a real American who can vote.
She is afraid to retrieve her marriage certificate and birth certificate. She was born in another state and would have to have her birth records sent to her, but they need a form of ID to release those records. Considering she doesn't drive or have a phone and is living in a shelter for abused women, doesn't have a utility bill or any credit cards...how much time and treasure will it cost her to prove she can vote? Is she still less of an American to you? Keep in mind, she was pissed that Republicans were against the Violence Against Women Act.
Go ahead Troy, tell us how this new law is not an impediment to voting and the costs are not an underhanded version of a poll tax.
Oh, and while you are at, it tell us the facts on how many cases of voter fraud there are...we'll wait.
There is now evidence that WWII vets are being denied access to the ballot box they fought to defend, or of the 93 year old woman who has never missed a vote and remembers what it was like to be discriminated against simply because they had a vagina...and were black!
So screw em, right Troy?
I can see the hamsters running around in your thought process and it keeps wanting to say out loud "If it doesn't affect me, it's OK...especially if they are more predisposed to vote for the Democratic party."
Seems to me there were some South Dakota convictions for voter fraud back in 2004...do you remember that Troy?
Was it people voting without proper ID? Nope.
Was it people claiming to be someone they weren't? Nope
Maybe you can tell us Troy.
What happened to those people who tried to game our South Dakota system of democracy. I heard the Republicans made sure they got cushy jobs in government and one even got elected.
The voter photo ID scam put forward by ALEC and sucked in hook-line-and-sinker by the-bogey-man-of-the-day Republicans is a joke that even the convicted Medicare fraudster Governor of Florida embraces.
This is nothing more than a means to make sure that people who have traditionally voted with the Democratic party are denied or obstructed their right to vote.
Stace. Yes it is.
Stace.
"Use the Google" and look up some predecessors of yours who fought for this country and now can't vote thanks to elitists like yourself.
What's sad is that you already knew these people were denied the right to vote and didn't care.
If you didn't know that these WWII Vets were denied the very right they defended and lost friends for...then you are just choosing to be blissfully ignorant or just don't care about the sacrifices made by those in WWII.
I'll give you a hint. Google Paul Carroll, Edward Weidenbener and Darwin Spinks.
Then you get back to us on how great your proposed system is working for everyone.
OK Stace...here's your challenge. Let's say that you and your wife were living in the flooded part of Ft. Pierre (in Governor Rounds' basement) and her legal documents were destroyed.
What would be the effort and the cost in time and money for her to replace those documents. (Oh yeah and she can't drive and can't use anything other than a public phone.)
We'll wait.
Or should she just accept that she is not allowed all the rights of being a citizen of these United States that you and she worked so hard to achieve?
During the last RC Mayoral election I went to my polling place to vote and showed my ID to the nice pollwatcher lady. She and another worker looked at each other, looked at their roster, then at my driver's license again, then whispered some more, and finally called me off to the side, out of the line.
"It looks like you've already voted," one of the ladies said.
"No I haven't," I said.
"Well, we have your name crossed off on our sheet." she said.
"How come?" I said.
"Well, we might have crossed it off by mistake, " she said.
"Oh." I said. "So now what?" I said.
Long and short of it, I filled out a provisional ballot and they said they would let me know by mail whether or not my vote counted. They didn't.
Come the runoff a few weeks later, I decide to vote absentee over at the courthouse instead of going back where they cross my name off the list accidentally and screw up my voting. (Notice that it didn't make one bit of difference that I had my ID with me. None. Zippo.)
When I asked the auditor if my vote counted last time, she went away and seemed to be checking on something, then returned and said "Yes, your vote counted." How did she know.
I cast my absentee ballot then. I have no idea whether or not it was counted. How would I?
Stace, Troy. Let's not pretend like our voting system is a good one, okay? Or that photo IDs make any difference whatsoever. If I'm a registered voter, my name is on the list, and most of the time, I get to vote.
But not always.
That's just the way it is, boys.
An imperfect system.
Deal with it.
"Both of these were created by Roger Ailes to get low information Americans excited by black people trying to vote."
These were created by those who believe that through a democracy we can take over the government and redistribute the wealth. Those who attack the messenger do so because they don't and can't argue against the truth. The video of two BPs with sticks in front of a polling location is impossible to argue with. Of course the Obama Brotherhood did not prosecute because Masonic Brothers stick together no matter what .
And I am no Fox Kool-aid drinker. I watch with the same entertainment value I do when I watch MSNBC.
p.s. As luck would have it, my friend Bill Harlan and his wife Marge (also my friend) came in while I was sitting over at the "naughty voter" table filling out my provisional ballot. After they got done breezing through the line, they came over and asked me WTF? I started to explain, and the poll watcher lady started to explain that there might have been a mistake made (no doubt remembering that Harlan was once a RCJ reporter.)
Sweet Marge looked at the poor lady and said, "Well, of course Fleming's not to be trusted." And then she chuckled a little. The pollwatcher lady got a nonplussed look on her face... I looked at my feet...
Marge is always so helpful.
The thing I can't understand is most of the states instituting these "papers, please" laws are red states that have been red states for generations. Doesn't the belief by Republicans that there is massive voter fraud in the states they control indicate they have corrupt and incompetent leadership?
In Wisconsin our elections are run by an independent board of ex-judges. This system was set up by Republicans, yet they have no faith in the system they set up. The Republican Attorney General here has prosecuted about 10 cases of supposed "voter fraud." Most such cases have come down to lack of knowledge about when and where a person can vote. Of course the more picky rules you have the more "voter fraud" you have, which has actually made voter frauds out of a couple Republican politicians,
I went to college in Minnesota and during that time voted in Minnesota. That system was excellent when it came to voting. It allowed same day registration and I simply brought down my college ID with me.
In Wisconsin, I read about the attempts to implement a voter ID law. "A government that undermines the very foundation of its existence - the people's inherent, pre-constitutional right to vote - imperils its legitimacy as a government by the people, for the people, and especially of the people," Dane County Circuit Judge Richard Niess wrote. "It sows the seeds for its own demise as a democratic institution. This is precisely what 2011 Wisconsin Act 23 does with its photo ID mandates."
The League of Women Voters, which filed one of four suits challenging the Wisconsin measure, in its own press statement disagreed.
“Voting is not like cashing a check or getting on an airplane,†state President Melanie Ramey said in the statement. “Those activities are not protected by the constitution.â€
Why do the Republicans need to change something that is fundamental to the Constitution?
I say let everybody vote; legal and not so legal residents, dead or alive, regardless of age. We do not have a national ID card therefore why should anyone(to include the government) have to right to require us to prove who we are, how old we are, where we live or if we are still alive. Everyone who lives in the U.S. is an honest person who would never lie, cheat or steal to get what they want.
Well, Joseph, we have plenty of non-Americans paying hundreds of millions of dollars to run political ads now, thanks to the Citizens United SCOTUS decision. Why should it just be the wealthy foreigners who get to have a say in our elections?
Isn't it funny how some people are in their rabid desires that they trip over themselves in their ignornat excitement of attacking the distorted picture they have created of someone?
http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2012/Bill.aspx?Bill=1169
The electoral process should be protected from fraud & abuses. The only way to do that is verifying who the person is attempting to register a vote. Because I support the protection of the one does not mean I am part of the problem of the other.
I hear Tabasco sauce is good for crow...
You believe that voter fraud gave Al Franken his Senate win using scant evidence, Rep. Nelson; now you say that your own prejudices don't obscure your vision of representative democracy: which is it?
Thanks for sticking up for women on the drivers' license thing Stace.
Good man.
p.s. Now, Stace, would you mind driving our pal Sibby down to Yankton for a little (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) R & R? I'll chip in some gas money.
@Bill Was also proud to help my friend Rep. Kevin Killer and my brother Lynn Hart get the respect they deserve http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2011/Bill.aspx?Bill=1242
P.S. if anybody gets a mental health R& R day, our names both come well before Sibby's! :-D
...if you say so, Stace. ;^)
Stace, the only way to stop fraud and abuse to any voting system is keeping the process very local, with local control. Neighbors who know neighbors. North Dakota does not require massive datamining ID systems to keep track of their neighbors. Why does South Dakota?
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Why should we or the state have to pay to clean up a private company's databases so they can sell our identities?
T15. Good point. At the same time I think it's wise not to let the "perfect" become the enemy of the "good." Our election system could perhaps use fome improvement, but hopely not to the point that a large segment of the population is banned from voting because of it.
...some... (...where did that f-ing f come from?)
Funny the Republicans will fight like hell to keep Americans from their God-given right to vote but they'll fight like hell to let anybody and mean anybody carry a gun.
maybe they should be consistent.
these voter ID laws are a soultion to no problem
the perfect is everyone who has the right to vote should not be encumbered in the process. In ND you walk in the door, give ypur address and vote. I know this a simplistic system but it works.
Actual election fraud is most likely to come from sabotage of voting machines that do not also generate a paper trail visible to the voter. There is little voter fraud because it is too expensive compared to hacking an election system of making sure corrupt officials lose a bunch of ballots. The actual problems are not at the very bottom, but in the middle and at the top....and in the corporate headquarters of companies manufacturing equipment designed to aid the Republicans they also contribute to.
Hear, hear Doug!
Those guys can change hundreds of thousands, even millions of votes. Ever wonder why, since the imposition of those paper-trail-less machines, suddenly exit polls are so far off? Voters are suddenly lying? After decades of decently accurate exit polls, the difference is the machines. Our elections are being stolen already, and it ain't voters doing the thievery.
Hear Hear DE. They're doing the markets with the high frequency trading(hft), data mining our internet and every other electronic communication we have, why not the electronic voting machines?
Most "election fraud" is actually not fraud at all. Fraud isn't committed when minorities, the elderly, students and people moving try to be good citizens and vote. Most of the "election fraud" is ex-felons not realizing they have been cleared to vote yet. They simply did not know they couldn't vote.
There are a couple instances in Wisconsin where two people were convicted of voting twice, what would be clear election fraud. No, they weren't minorities, or students, or the elderly. They wealthy enough to have several residences, and they were registered Republicans.
I doubt Romney was giving a speech to the audience in front of him. He was probably wanting to get a reaction like he got. The boos only make his base more fired up.
Sometimes, the best thing about coming here is becoming convinced the need is greater than I imagined.
I come here and not one liberal acknowledgment that my concern about canceled votes is legitimate.
Why do we even have voter registration rolls? Why do we even check off names?
I get a chuckle when people say "no evidence/no charges filed" which is analogous to a business who says "nobody steals from us". When asked how you know, "well, we have caught nobody." When asked how they audit to catch someone they say, "since nobody has been caught, we see no reason to audit."
People, your claim it never happens means nothing. Since you can't verify to me every voter was who he said he was, you can't claim it doesn't happen.
Thus, because you can't verify it doesn't happen yet you claim it doesn't, you are either an intentional liar or one insignificant concerned if what comes from your mouth is true.
So, your words are only convincing this needs to be done.
That's incoherent, Troy. It's like saying "the fact that you've never seen a dragon proves there are dragons." Dumb.
With the Executive Orders coming at record pace one must wonder when one having the Federal Government take over all the voter registrations currently being conducted by the inept, overly cautious, horribly expensive, and inconsistent states are today. The Feds fixed illegal immigration so why can't they fix a little voter fraud mirage? What illegals? (Sarcasm is so much fun.)
Charlie, the difference between non-existant voter fraud people and undocumented workers is that the former can't roof your house and mow your lawn. (i.e. with the latter, you can find them when you need to. ;^)
Charlie, you're almost as bad as Sibby at shoehorning your preferred talking points into every discussion. Whatever executive orders you're hot and bothered about, the fact remains that voter fraud is as big a GOP bogeyman argument as creeping socialism.
People like Troy prove why we must be vigilant in our work to educate all to the difference between Election Fraud and Voter Fraud.
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Even Troy cannot provide examples of Voter Fraud, especially of the scope to change an election. Donald Pay's GOP voter double voting at multiple residences has been verified. I have actually known people who have lake homes who think it gives them the right to vote at both because they own property.
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What is proven in courts over and over again throughout the United States is Election Fraud where entire groups of citizens are blocked from having their votes counted. South Dakota 2004, Ohio 2004, New Hampshire 2002, Jim Crow south and spreading north for 150+ years are all documented examples of Election Fraud with convictions.
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Anytime the party of restriction sees they are about to be pushed out of office by the people due to their subservience to the landed aristocracy, methods are found to limit access to the polls. In other words, the upper 1% cheats the 99%. The GOP is a wholly owned subsidiary of Roger Ailes and Faux News implementing his 1971 plan written for Richard Nixon. to dominate.
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Troy becomes a spokesman for the cheaters when he legitimizes the cheating of the 1% over the rest of us. They know winning elections fair and square is not possible when voicing their real message, so Election Fraud is used implementing Voter Suppression methods. It is the only way to retain power.
Under their voter ID law W would be purged as ineligible from voter rolls in Texas:
http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/07/13/oops-george-w-bushs-name-on-list-of-texas-residents-who-would-be-ineligible-to-vote/
Dang, Larry: I guess voter ID laws really can tackle frauds.
Troy, your vote is "cancelled" by anyone who votes differently than you do. It's a one-to-one proposition. Conversely, if by gerrymandering and overly restricting a class of voters (who are known statistically to vote differently than you do) in such a way as to ensure that they don't vote against you at all, your vote is amplified. That's not "equality."
How about this? Anyone who makes over $100k a year in personal income doesn't get to vote. Sound fair?
Gentlemen the facts speak otherwise when dealing with the current administration though. Holder being ordered to cease and desist all charges against the Black Panthers when they blocked access to a polling/voting location, Obama ordering ICE to not respond to AZ's illegal immigrant arrests, Obama telling America the Private Sector is doing fine it's just the Public sector which is hurting all tell a different tale than you have proposed. I'd say most of us here in SD have blinders on as to what really happens in the big city when it comes to fraud, of all kinds not just voter.
And I'd call the current food stamp increases creeping socialism. American's are the fattest race in the world; but we don't get enough to eat. Just does not add up to creeping self reliance on the work to eat plan our grandparents grew up with. But the new Executive Order stopping all welfare recipients from needing to be looking for work in order to continue government assistance is a sure vote getter. Capitalism that is not.
And Cory I find the correlation between the Feds lack of security on our borders exactly as suspicious as them saying we do not have any voter fraud in America. (So group me up with Sibby as we agree on much more than we disagree.)
Here's what the "public v. private sector" point is all about, Charlie:
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/03/public-and-private-sector-payroll-jobs.html
As for Arizona, the Supreme court has upheld the President's (and Holder's) position. Did you miss that part?
Also, did you miss the fact that in many markets there are no jobs, but that people still need to eat? And that those welfare dollars go right back into the economy (as opposed to stashing them away in the Caymans or Swiss bank accounts.)?
Keep posting Charlie. We'll get your head screwed back on right yet. Meanwhile, Sibby just called. Says to tell you he wants his tin-foil hat back.
You know, the one with the propellers.
Lack of border security and voter fraud? Charlie, are you trying to get us off track? Let me just note that the Bush administration didn't stop 12 million illegal immigrants from crossing the border to help industry keep costs low. Under Obama, we actually have fewer illegal immigrants.
And for Pete's sake, do you really think Illegal immigrants are swamping the polls? Do you think they are taking time off work to go vote?
Statehood for the tribes, Quebec, Mexico...and Cuba.
Bill now I'm laughing out loud! Cory I know the problems with our border were not a high priority in past administrations either but someone someday truly needs to get a handle on this ever growing problem and saying to AZ that we are not coming to help is surely not the answer. Being able to prove that you are in fact a resident of the county you are voting in before voting surely is not too much to ask though. Texas was correct.
A lot of copy and pasting going on here to prove all kinds of points. How many countries of the world do not have honest elections and how are we better than them?
It would be nice if this was just a one party problem, but with corruption rampant in the top 1% and it is the top 1% who control our government, I have no doubt anything they can corrupt will be corrupt.
I'm sure both sides on this little discussion will take ammunition from this article: http://nj1015.com/a-new-generation-of-fake-ids-and-licenses-pose-security-risks-audio/
The key paragraphs:
"Homeland Security officials and State Motor Vehicles Agencies are worried about a new generation of phony driver’s licenses and I-D’s that can get past the newest digital security systems.
"No longer the domain of backroom cottage industries, this fake document business is state of the art.
"The documents are being peddled from websites overseas…many in China. Their holograms, even the PVC plastic on the cards, has been faithfully replicated. Andrew Meehan of the Coalition for a Secure Driver’s License says they are so good that when scanned by a machine, the fake is going to come up as a valid I-D when the so-called, “machine readable zone†is scanned.
"And he says there’s a lot more at stake here than just college kids getting past the bartender. Meehan says where ID cheats pose a very serious risk is to our homeland and National security."
My take aways
1) If one is worried about voter fraud, one isn't worried about three liberals in Spearfish voting twice to cancel out the good conservatives in Sioux Falls, one is really concerned about large scale organized efforts.
2) It will always be possible to fake ids.
3) Someone will always be able to develop fakes that are better than the technology designed to catch fakes.
4) Money is not really a problem. Contributors have millions. If they want to rig the game, they'll spend the money on fake IDs instead of contributing to a candidate.
5) Money and technology will combine to make a National ID card a worthless tool unable to stop voter fraud. People who want to commit voter fraud will be able to do so under a National ID system just like people who want to commit identity theft do now.
The bug-a-boo in this thread is amazing. Charlie, Sibby and others are performing their subterfuge as usual. When their logic gets thin, they move the conversation to the boogeyman in the corner arguments. Instead of seeing the root causes of the problem they go to the results of the corruption effects / affects. Instead of finding a solution to the root cause of the problem, they try fixing the problem with retribution methods.
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There is almost no influx of illegal aliens right now by 'brown' people from south of the border. In fact an outflow is widely reported. The influx being reported usually has to do with families trying to reunite. We can have discussions about this issue but it has nothing to do with this thread.
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The destruction of the American economy by rich (and pretend rich) Americans & international corporations are intentionally trying to destroy economic and political systems as we have known them.
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Everytime the fringe right takes the conversation into their realm, we hear toilets flushing the 10 Commandments and Constitution out of our lives.
What LK's 5 points illustrate are not Vote Fraud but Election Fraud. Any organized effort to subvert the system is Election Fraud. Election Fraud can be accomplished today as a conspiracy of one or many participants.
I'll take the distinction Testor15. I want to stop both voter and election fraud.
I wanted to point out that a National ID will do nothing to stop either.
Very good LK. Testor, what do you call our state officials when they jump on Real ID and the ACA as quickly as a fly to manure? One party rule?
When you've got the Republican Party trying to establish various ways to criminalize voting against them, we aren't very far from a totalitarian state. The people who support these sorts of laws against people voting are traitors.
In our ALEC controlled state, we are financing the cleaning of ChoicePoint's datamining system. RealID / National ID are scams. The Social Security Card we all have to carry has illegally been made into a type of ID system by many companies. All of these databases should be destroyed by law and practice. The feds, states and companies should not have the level of information these systems hold.
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Our state with its one party rule and control is floundering right now looking for real leaders. We have a state government being controlled by small minded people doing the work for the past and present members of ALEC.
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LK is correct, the ID systems being implemented are not for stopping illegals from voting, it is a method of cleaning corporate databases for the purpose of tracking us from cradle to grave.
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Did you know, the feds no longer have to get a search warrant to dig into your life? Thanks to the Bush administration's post 911 rush to usurp our rights and privacy, government and private investigators can now just order your private data using a purchase order. This change is because your data is now 'commercially' available so not 'private' any longer.
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I work with data everyday. You who don't, would be amazed what we can find out about you and yours. The data is often incorrect, so the RealID system is an attempt to correct the databases.
So tell us Testor, in a non Sibby sort of way, if you can, about the data harvesting at Camp Williams. Just a million square feet and a simple 65 mega watts of power to run that computer behemoth.
During the post 911 frenzy to know who the 'terrorists' were the Bush administration came up with the plan for the 'Total awareness' system. The NSA and other spook sites were going to collect every bit of data they could find. By using it in conjunction with the databases maintained by datamining companies like ChoicePoint, our spooks and companies who could afford to access it would be able to control everything about us.
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Facebook CEO Zuckerburg stated it correctly a while back when he said no one should should expect any privacy any longer. Everything on Facebook, Google / Bing / Yahoo searches will be saved for their uses. For this and more, I recommend my customers NOT under any circumstance use Facebook.
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I know you wanted a non-Sibby answer but consider the Tom Cruise movie of a few years ago and how it played on the concept of an all knowing state anticipating your thoughts. This ability to anticipate has been studied for 60 years in psych labs. There were research project at USD in the 1970's I was able to watch.
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We all have profiles already in these databases, based on our personal activities, already collected by them. This data can be used to set your scores, credit and personality. All data centers send information through 'gates' controlled by the NSA type agencies. This is supposed to catch terrorists when in actuality most of it is to control the public for the use of the 1%.
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Listen to how the definition of terrorist activity has changed in recent years. The Faux News channel builds a common meme for us to accept when discussing the Occupy / ACORN / ACLU or other citizen's movements. These and any other non 1% controlled organizations are likely to be called Terrorist groups with all the build-up necessary to stir up the fear in their listeners.
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The 'Total Awareness' was supposed to be killed off but Michael Chertoff continued to find ways to push it forward into a same thing by a different name.
All of these posts about election/voter fraud and no one mentions the problems - and possible investigation - of your SoS office and the loss of integrity there.
Gant's still the election authority there, right?
Under SD law he is and will be unless he resigns or is impeached beforehand.
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Keeping pressure on him will allow us more access to the process. It is called sunshine, the light of day will allow all to see into the process.
So, if the accusations I've seen are anywhere near correct, and Gant/office shows some favoritism towards some candidates over others (notary signatures, etc.), and other possible improprieties in that office...
Has anyone checked the purged voter lists?
From Twitter:
@LOLGOP: Fake voter fraud accusations are the domestic version [of] the Iraq weapons of mass destruction charges.
Larry's much better at this cut/paste/link stuff than me.
the computerized voter rolls are an area pp and Gant were instituting. Sen A should also make sure he covers it.
And all from the minds which called Troy Jones dumb. Bugaboo is you!!
Thanks Testor, the non Sibby remark was simply my twist to get your statement validating some info that is all lumped as crazy Sib. Ive been in the electronics communications industry for close to 4 decades, though Sibby marches to the beat of his own drum, there is enough here to concern me and he is far from the craziest element in our world.
Voting is the least of my concern when the manipulation can come at our own behest through the social networking and executive orders that continue enhancing homeland security.
Cory, there may be a good reason to crack down on election fraud, but not to suppress minority voters like the Republicans want. We need it to protect America from the Republican Party! Why, it was only in 2004 when we had a clear cut case of Republicans committing election fraud and we saw this breaking story in the news:
Earlier this week, John Thune, the man challenging Tom Daschle in South Dakota found himself in the midst of a family voter fraud scandal. The Thune campaign dismissed the report as a misstatement by a volunteer. Now, it looks like the fraud is much more widespread than previously reported. According to today's Sioux Falls Argus Leader, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General, are investigating the allegedly illegal actions of Jeff Thune, John Thune's nephew, and Rachel Hoff, a woman employed by the state Republican party. The fraud is allegedly happening in a number of communities across the state, and local auditors are holding questionable documents that seem to be illegally notarized [by Jeff Thune who apparently claimed falsely to registrants that he was a Notary].
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This was in the Argus Leader as the voter fraud case proceeded:
Six Republican notary publics face a misdemeanor charge in connection with absentee ballot applications filled out on South Dakota college campuses, but there's no evidence of voter fraud, Attorney General Larry Long said Friday.
Long and Secretary of State Chris Nelson outlined a two-week investigation in a document faxed to county auditors and state's attorneys.
The document states "it is a near certainty that all absentee voters that had their application notarized by one of the six notaries" will be challenged in court.
"Lawyers who represent the Democrats have written to us and told us that," Long told reporters.
Several attorneys have contacted him, he said.
He, Chris Nelson, Minnehaha County State's Attorney Dave Nelson and Minnehaha County Auditor Sue Roust briefed reporters on the investigation.
Five of the Republican notaries were charged in Minnehaha County since the ballot applications were all processed in Sioux Falls, even though some were gathered elsewhere.
Those five are: Joseph Alick, 28; Nathan Mertz, 20; Todd Schlekeway, 27; Rachel Hoff, 22; and Eric Fahrendorf, 24. Another GOP worker, Jennifer Giannonatti, will be charged in Pennington County because of ballots collected in Rapid City, Long said.
Campuses included in the investigation include South Dakota State, University of South Dakota, Augustana College, Mount Marty College, Black Hills State, Dakota State, Northern State and the School of Mines & Technology.
Dave Nelson said the six are charged with improper use of a notary commission, a Class 2 misdemeanor punishable by up to a month in jail and a $200 fine. They can also lose their notary licenses.
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They were found guilty and punished. But instead of wasting great talent like these guys (one of whom later was rewarded with getting elected to the legislature), the Republican Party transferred them to Ohio where the GOP ran one of the meanest and ugliest voter suppression campaigns ever in the closing days of the 2004 election. Here’s the link where you can see this and other dirty work committed by Thuniacs and the state GOP right here in South Dakota: http://vote2004.eriposte.com/redstates/southdakota.htm .
This case goes to show that if you kiss up as a Republican operative in South Dakota, there will always be folks there to take care of you – even when you get caught breaking election laws.
Unlike the GOP, I don’t favor Jim Crow laws that clearly seek to suppress Native Americans, African Americans and other minorities from their most sacred right to vote. I do favor increasing the penalties on those found guilty of election fraud. The Thuniac 6 described above got misdemeanor charges. If those laws carried felony penalties and mandatory prison sentences, their attempts to violate election laws would be far, far fewer in South Dakota.
Dougal, you are definitely giving fantastic examples of Election Fraud. No Voter instigation in these actions, so not Voter Fraud. There was a conspiracy to commit Election Fraud. Voter Suppression is a form of Election Fraud. Remember the native Americans chased from voting in Lake Andes in 2004 and the efforts against the 2010 Pow Wow events of the 2010 season.
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One of my main missions in this matter is education. There is a difference between Election Fraud and Voter Fraud. We need to make sure when people are discussion these issues, the correct definition and understandings are consistent.
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With proper education, we can then fight the battles with the right data. Having the right knowledge we will know the answers to the Faux News talking points.
The voter ID requirements are a joke considering all of the RVers that are allowed to use their campground receipts as proof of residence to get SD licenses and therefore the right to vote. Can anyone point out what these "residents" bring to the table besides ducking taxes in their actual home states.
Charlie, Troy's not dumb. His argument is dumb. So are yours to the degree that you fail to provide evidence to back them up.
What a contrast to Czech Days! Just spent most of the afternoon at the Santa Fe International Folk Art Market.
Democrats are such different colors while that other party is clearly not.
Santa Fe was just one town where persons of Japanese ancestry were 'interned' during WWII: so was Missoula, Heart Mt, Wyoming, and Ft. Lincoln, ND.
Art-of-Fact from those camps is shown at the Museum of International Folk Art.
American Exceptionalism, indeed.
Back atcha, Taunia:
@billmaher Mitt demanding Obama apology for Bain ads - cuz they're working! Hope my money bought them! Dems finally learning (from Reps!)how to be mean
The VoterID fraud, of course it has Karl Rove:
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/07/voter-id-laws-are-last-gasp-fading-gop-strategy.
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Who else would be so color centric, anti-Semitic and racist but Rove.
It amazes me how many countries do have an electronic ids. How long will it be before they implanted chips, as we certainly have the technology? Did anyone believe back in the 70's we could be tracked as we are today?
Recently I had to renew my driver’s license. I have been married twice, but never changed my name; hence my birth certificate says the name I have always had, or at least since I was adopted. I DID NOT take in my divorce papers. The process is really flawed and very discriminatory to women. Personally, I wonder why it is legal.
In the eyes of the right wing you, PrairieLady are amongst the chattel class. You are the property of the menu you have married.
It would be interesting to see current and previous statistics on ticketing for SDCL 32-12-22. Â Prohibition against driving without license. According to above postings there should be a notable increase to substantiate claims and clarify situation. Smart cards are used in various sectors including military ID and provide greater versatility in capabilities and increased security. Large metropolitan areas face different voter ID concerns that are not relevant to a SD town of 500. Be interesting to hear county auditor perception on voter ID laws and possible changes.
Hey Stace and Troy...let's get back to the subject at hand on the ALEC driven laws on photo ID being a poll tax.
I asked each of you to imagine a scenario and then tell us how much it would cost in time and treasure for current eligible voters to keep their rights that they have exercised faithfully...you have both courageously ignored those scenarios because it's largely inconvenient.
I gave examples of WWII vets being denied the right to vote that they risked their lives for and watched their friends die for...but that was not good enough for you guys. Screw em right?
Oh that's right, Troy said he would pay for anyone who just need the photo ID...between Florida and PA, I'm thinking Troy is on the hook for billions of dollars.
Way to go Troy...you are going to make T. Denny Sanford look like a piker.
Wait...what...you won't pay for everyone's costs and time in making sure they can retain the rights they already have?
So, Troy and Stace... are you guys afraid of disagreeing with ALEC and the latest fad, or is it you are afraid that the population of America has passed you and your dogma goodbye.
Troy, you are so worried that a vote will be canceled out that you can't even see the injustice of denying, by process and its associated expense, millions of legitimate voters from the same rights you enjoy?
Again gentlemen...show us how our biggest worry is voter fraud based on historical evidence and how your solution to a problem, that doesn't exist, is worth denying/pricing citizens out of their right to vote.
See, there is no proof that the current system isn't working...but there is proof that if the 3/5ths crowd and the Republican idiots that are saying we were better off when women didn't have the vote want to turn the clock back as America passes them by.
Tell us again, with the two simple scenarios I offered, how the grand Republican/ALEC plan has the best interests of all legitimate voters as their intent.
Immigrants are saving small town America:
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2012/07/24/immigrants-hazleton-pennsylvania
Troy and Stace are still cowards...and here's why.
Just under 2 weeks ago we had a lively discussion on the ALEC inspired voter id laws that both supported on the phantom thought that there was a voter fraud problem to be solved.
Here was my challenge to them:
I asked each of you to imagine a scenario and then tell us how much it would cost in time and treasure for current eligible voters to keep their rights that they have exercised faithfully…you have both courageously ignored those scenarios because it’s largely inconvenient.
I gave examples of WWII vets being denied the right to vote that they risked their lives for and watched their friends die for…but that was not good enough for you guys.
Screw em right? Freaking Democrats...
Oh that’s right, Troy said he would pay for anyone who just need the photo ID…between Florida and PA, I’m thinking Troy is on the hook for billions of dollars.
Troy, does your wife know you volunteered to pay for anyone that needed a photo ID and all of the supporting documents that they will need? That really is the kind of thing that a husband and wife should talk about...don't you think Troy?
Today under oath, the backers (and the state of PA) of the ALEC voter ID laws in PA said they were blowing smoke up everyone's skirt...
"The state signed a stipulation agreement with lawyers for the plaintiffs which acknowledges there “have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states.â€
Additionally, the agreement states Pennsylvania “will not offer any evidence in this action that in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred in Pennsylvania and elsewhere†or even argue “that in person voter fraud is likely to occur in November 2012 in the absense of the Photo ID law.â€
"Pennsylvania has said that over 750,000 registered voters do not have ID from the Transportation Department, a problem more concentrated in urban centers like Philadelphia. One top state Republican has claimed the voter ID law would help Mitt Romney win the Keystone state and Democrats have already altered their campaign plans should the law survives legal challenges."
Then of course there is those noble Wisconsin Republicans weighing in on their efforts.
Here's the champion of voter ID laws in Wisconsin, State Senate Minority Assistant Leader Glenn Grothman (R) in an interview...
KEYES: If it were upheld and in place in time for the November election, do you think — polls have shown a pretty razor-thin margin — do you think it might ultimately help Romney’s campaign here in the state?
GROTHMAN: Yes. Right. I think we believe that insofar as there are inappropriate things, people who vote inappropriately are more likely to vote Democrat.
KEYES: So if these protections are in place of voter ID, that might ultimately help him in a close race?
GROTHMAN: Right. I think if people cheat, we believe the people who cheat are more likely to vote against us.
Stace, when you took the same oath that my son took...did you have your fingers crossed that you would only defend people you agreed with politically? Didn't think so...
One would think that with the anonymity that the Citizens United ruling provides, that you two patriots would be far more concerned about foreigners trying to fraudulently influence our elections...as opposed to making sure that World War II vets were denied their rights.
But not a peep out of Stace and Troy...
Stace?...Troy?...Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller? Anyone?
Speaking of foreign influence made real through Citizens United...I would think that Troy and Stace would have some serious concerns about Cory's recent trip to France.
Never know boys...Cory could have been hatching a plan to get back at you two for the whole 'Freedom Fries' thing...not to mention recruiting active financial involvement in the politics of South Dakota.
I've heard through back channels that he is looking to make French the official language of South Dakota.
Or he was just taking a group of French students on an educational trip...but how do you really know...maybe we should ban foreign language teachers the right to vote. After all...they didn't choose to teach American...I mean English.
Hey, if your conspiracy radar goes off with WWII vets and little old ladies...Cory's trip has got to be pegging out that radar.
(Dang: I forgot to order French fries while I was there! Good duck, though!)