Last updated on 2013.08.29
A Madison neighbor just got a mystery PAC attack robocall from the same number associated with Tuesday's assault on the SDGOP leadership. Pat Powers reports the same from another source.
Much has been said here in the blogosphere about the form (cheap, chickenly anonymous, but punchy) and legality (yup, legal) of the coordinated and anonymous PAC attack on SDGOP House leaders David Lust, Justin Cronin, and Brian Gosch and Senate Majority Leader Russell Olson. But what of the substance?
The PAC attack postcard cites six bills from the 2011 Legislative session and one from 2012 dealing with veterans issues. Here's the table from the card; I add Senator Olson's votes where applicable. From the postcarders' point of view, nays are anti-veteran votes on all but 2011's SB 188:
| Bill | Lust | Cronin | Gosch | Olson |
| 2011-HB1083"Revise ineffective veterans education statute" | Nay | Nay | Nay | |
| 2011-HB1125"Increase certain veteran bonus payments" | Nay | Nay | Nay | |
| 2011-HB1163"Allow disabled veterans to obtain handicap hunting permits" | Yea | Yea | Nay | |
| 2011-HB1196"Establish veteran centers at state colleges" | Nay | Nay | Nay | Nay |
| 2011-HB1253"Establish provisions for military & overseas voters" | Nay | Nay | *excused* | |
| 2011-SB188"Abolish select education benefits for SD National Guard" | Yea | Yea | Yea | Yea |
| 2012-HB1106"Restore funds to veterans service officer programs" | Nay | Nay | Nay |
The only error I find in the vote counts is the postcard's claim that Rep. Gosch voted against 2011 HB1253. He was in fact excused from that State Affairs Committee vote.
Now some notes on each bill:
2011 House Bill 1083: Veterans get free tuition to South Dakota public universities. HB 1083 would have extended that deal to our vo-techs. The bill did not provide funding to help the Board of Regents cover the expenses of educating those veterans without tuition support.
2011 HB 1125 was a mostly Democratic measure to increase state bonus payments to veterans, in some cases double or more. It included no funding mechanism.
2011 HB 1163: Current law allows folks who can't walk or who have a really hard time doing so to obtain "disabled hunter permits" and shoot from their vehicles. HB 1163 would have extended that privilege to veterans with a Department of Veterans Affairs disability rating of at least 30%. If I understand this chart on disability ratings correctly, that provision would have included vets with an amputatedthumb or trigger finger, a missing eye, hearing impairment, or certain levels of depression.
2011 HB 1196 would have created veterans resources centers at each South Dakota public university. The bill passed the House, even though it was an unfunded mandate; a watered-down version ("may" replaced "shall") failed in the Senate. School of Mines has established a VRC anyway, and other Regental campuses are looking for similar ways to better serve the incoming wave of degree-seeking veterans.
2011 HB 1253: House State Affairs tabled this bill at prime sponsor Rep. Marc Feinstein's request. Rep. Feinstein said in committee on Feb. 9, 2011, that his bill was put together "hurriedly" and was "not ready for prime time." He said the measure passed immediately before his bill came to House State Affairs, HB 1130, covered similar ground. Since then, Secretary of State Jason Gant appears to be using federal grants to help military and overseas voters in the way this bill intended... not that we should take much comfort in anything Secretary Gant is in charge of.
2011 Senate Bill 188 sought to abolish the 50% tuition break given to National Guard members seeking graduate degrees at South Dakota public universities. Governor Daugaard requested the bill. It passed the Senate 31 to 4, but failed in the House.
2012 HB 1106 would have restored cuts made to veterans services officers in Governor Daugaard's hack-happy first budget in 2011. Those cuts passed almost unanimously in 2011, with the onlynay coming from Democratic Senator Jason Frerichs. The cuts apparently cost no jobs, but they are another pointed example, as Rep. Spence Hawley (D-7/Brookings) pointed out to House Appropriations on Feb. 2, 2012, of the state shifting costs to the counties.
The PAC postcard lists legislator votes mostly accurately. However, the key word in the postcard seems to be "niggardly," characterizing the legislators of concern as declining to extend government largesse to veterans. Only one of the bills (2012 HB 1106) would have provided any more money for veteran services. Only on one other bill (2011 SB 188) did the attacked SDGOP leaders actually vote to take a financial benefit away from veterans. Three of the bills the leaders opposed (2011 HB 1083, 1125, and 1196) provided no funding to pay for the veterans benefits that sponsors wanted. And on two of the bills (2011 HB 1196 and 1253), it appears the state is working to address those issues despite the failure of those bills.
If we look at the details surrounding the legislation listed, we may find the picture of Reps. Lust, Cronin, and Gosch, and Sen. Olson as "niggards" toward veterans is no more slam-dunkily clear than the identity of the people behind these anonymous PAC attacks. But the PAC-men know that when they launch an attack like this, not everyone will look at the record. Even the silliest attack can chip away at the walls. If these opponents of the GOP leadership can extend these attacks from one early August raid to an ongoing barrage, Republicans like Lust, Cronin, Gosch, and Olson may have to expend more resources than they want to maintain their grip on power.
Very good Cory. Sometimes your, mine, and other posters is to just provide facts and information to serve the public good. Thank you.
One of the glaring common "deficiencies" of the bill is what the bill would cost. No matter the cause, supporting a bill that doesn't disclose the appropriation is in my mind a deriliction of duty. And, any legislator who proposes such a bill without presenting the cost should not expect support from the legislature, especially fiscally conservative Republicans.
It appears Schoenbeck might be right and the people behind this are fiscally irresposible liberals. :)
Stacey Nelson: do you have anything to do with these robocalls and/or mailers in any capacity, from the conception, distribution, implementation or funding of them?
Taunia, the parallels between this push and the report cards issued by our local conservatives last winter (focus on voting records, GOP platform, party purity) strongly inclines me toward believing there's a connection.
Troy, thank you and you're welcome. I suspect you and Lee and I could come up with a list of bills where the votes tell a pretty simple story about where a legislator stands on certain issues. The bills listed above are at least an improvement over Gordon Howie's arbitrary cherry-picking in that this PAC attack is at least focusing on several bills in one subject area, veterans issues. But this attack still cherry-picks, ignoring several other veterans bills floated in 2011 and 2012. (Hey: that could be another blog post, breaking down votes on all veterans isues!) And the simple listing of yeas and nays ignores the full reasons legislators voted the way they did.
Yeah, those darn liberals...
"Yeah, those darn liberals…"
will come together from both parties when their system designed to centralize and control comes under attack. First step, find out who so that the retaliation can begin. Anybody still wonder why liberal and tyranny are bcoming synonymous?
When someone finds out where the robocalls/mailers came from, please don't tell Steve. He doesn't want to know so he can keep himself out of the fray.
Taunia, my hunch is, Steve knows exactly who is making the calls.
But he's sworn to secrecy by some occult crypto-Lutheran blood oath.
I think they have their meetings over lime & pineapple jello salad at the Golden Corral. The secret handshake is to be sure to have a fried chicken wing on a plate in your left hand.
Don't ask me how I know this.
If I told you, I'd have to shoot you.
So Fleming, is that what you group does? And why would you shoot people who you told?
It doesn't surprise me Cory. We lost a strong advocate for Veteran's Affairs when they voted Stephanie out of office for Kristi.
On which planet is this true: "Anybody still wonder why liberal and tyranny are bcoming synonymous?"
Can I answer a question with a question? Which planet does Steve live on?
Nice job cory keep it up as a veteran, its easy to see who the republicans are for.
[CAH: Thank you, Moses!]
Steve Sibson: do/did you have anything to do with these robocalls and/or mailers in any capacity, from the conception, distribution, implementation or funding of them?
Wiken: that statement is not true on the planet Earth. I cannot vouch for the 8, including Pluto.
Good questions of Steve and Stace. And fair. Let's see if they have the integrity, honor and honesty to answer them.
Unfortunately David Montgomery didn't ask his question as well as Taunia when he got this quote: “I didn’t put the postcard out and I didn’t make the telephone call,â€
To clarify, that was a quote from Nelson.
Cory - nicely done. You know there is one other fundamental problem with the calls --- the caller may well be a fake. Most vets I know, like my uncle that emails me daily, are pretty fiscally conservative. They would understand and agree with your analysis. The caller, obviously, is not. It is a real problem in our contry that you have these phonies claiming to be vets - when they aren't -- or their service records are very different that what they publicly say.
I suspect this phonie desecrating vets is hiding because he is just another chicken wing (neither left or right wing just chicken) faking to be a vet. They should hang people like that from their toenails
When presented with a well drafted piece of legislation that makes sense, the whole legislature supports veterans. SB 96 from 2007 is an example (Lust was a co-sponsor). It exempted the first $100K of value of a home from property taxes for 100% disabled vets (about $1,500 a year). It didn't have a negative vote in either chamber, committee or floor.
That was Sen. McCracken's bill. And you are absolutely right Corey, there were questions about the cost. Sen. McCracken explained the minimal cost for the exemption in his testimony.
To answer your question, it's this simple: Pat Powers got caught, he know's he did wrong, and after years of acting like a big shot, the big shot ain't such a big shot anymore. It's that simple :)
@Les
I don't think this is about people lying about their service records or not being "real conservatives". It's about anonymous people misleading on voting records. And probably executed by the people who commonly post here telling Troy he isn't a "real conservative".
Justin,
Sometimes, I think people don't even think I'm a real person. :)
But you raise a good point. The people who people suspect might be involved are eerily quiet. Personally, if I were being accused of being involved in something I wasn't, I'd set the record straight. And, since we know they post here, their silence is damning.
Just wondering if these guys got their ideas from:
A) Saul Alinsky - currently a best seller with the Republican party
B) Karl Rove - who can forget the hatchet job on war hero John McCain
C) Lee Atwater - the godfather of the dark arts.
Youngsters like Rove, Jones and Lee trained under Atwater back in the 70's. Maybe they know some of his other SD students. Lee, Troy who were the other jedi knights who went to the dark side.
Personally, I'm voting for a young trainee of the John Birch Society as the culprit. After all, there are plenty of fans of the Koch brothers in SD and we know what organization their father founded.
Jana,
Maybe they got the idea from the guy who produced the Obama ad starring the guy who is using his wife's tragic death and lies to accuse Romney of killing his wife.
you should say the "pro Obama" ad. It is a SuperPAC ad, just like the 3 minute video "When Romney Came to Town" that Sheldon Adelstein (who now supports Romney) ran against Romney in South Carolina to support Newt Gingrich.
Troy, yes it could be as they did jump the shark a little with the wife dying...kind of like the Romney ad that says Obama is gutting the welfare to work system by giving states more control...you know the kind of control that Governors Romney, Huckabee, Rick Perry, Barbour, Pawlenty et. al. were requesting.
Just guessing that pro Obama superPAC guys are all too busy on national campaigns to bother with 3 electoral votes in South Dakota. That and I don't think they've put out books or anything that could inspire locals. And it's not like Ed, Gordie and friends would ever read it anyway.
But it is the silly season and I'm guessing we'll see more of these type ads from both of the super PACs.
Heck, I can't even imagine what they would do with the whole Romney as governor giving cars, titles, fees, repairs and AAA memberships to welfare recipients. That could get overblown into a whole Welfare Queen - Willie Horton type smear campaign.
So did you really study under Atwater? I just thought that was around your era of young republicanism. In certain circles, I bet that looks great on a resume.
Jana,
So now you ask a question whether I "studied" under Atwater? Before you just made the charge. But no. Everything I know about politics I learned from Jim Abdnor and George Mickelson.
(Hey, Bill: "crypto" and "Lutheran" just don't go together. Lutherans are some of the least mysterious people I know. A few misguided members do the Via de Cristo thing, but for the most part, the blandness you see is the blandness you get... with the exception of my entirely non-bland, wholly delicious seminarian wife. ;-) )
Lee, I appreciate your revision to "chicken wing." I'm perfectly comfortable leveling that charge on anyone who won't put his or her name to public statements impugning public officials... even if those public officials deserve a good impugning.
Jana: Alinsky? Alinsky! Now you've got me thinking....
Cory, I completely agree. Sibby is, in fact, the only crypto-Lutheran I know.
You will perhaps recall this thread where we found him out:
https://madvilletimes.com/2012/04/teen-birth-rates-down-across-u-s-whither-moral-decline/
"Steve Sibson: do/did you have anything to do with these robocalls and/or mailers in any capacity, from the conception, distribution, implementation or funding of them?"
Would "anything" that include verbally supporting any and all efforts by citizens who want to hold their legislators accountable for their voting records by excercising their First Amendment right to anonymous speech to prevent retaliation from the SDGOP Establishment thugs (including Pat Powers, Troy Jones and Lee Schoenbeck)?
And would supporting the First Amendment right of anonymous free speech include those who would do a witch on hunt to identify such citizens? Or would that better describe fascists and communists?
"Most vets I know, like my uncle that emails me daily, are pretty fiscally conservative."
Lee, do they know the amount of the FY2013 state budget including federal funding versus the amount spent in the year Obama was elected president?
"I suspect this phonie desecrating vets is hiding because he is just another chicken wing (neither left or right wing just chicken) faking to be a vet. They should hang people like that from their toenails"
Lee, now that you proved by point about retailiation from SDGOP Establishment thugs who would hanb people by thier toenails, would you be a courageous for walking into a lions den stand face to face with a lion and punch it between the eyeballs? Or would you come up with something with a little less risk without being afraid of beind called a chicken?
Steve,
Lee is using figurative speech. But to the point, the people behind this are sucker punching (as you admit chicken to go face to face which textbook cowardly behaviour).
Steve,did you have a role, direct or indirect, in this postcard or robocall? Are you aware of who was involved? Are either Gordon Howie or Stace Nelson?
Steve I think knowing where and from whom these calls and postcards are coming from would give a much better understanding of why for all of us. Obviously my name is not on them but I work with every one of the mentioned politicians and look forward to working with them for at least two more years. I actually look forward to seeing and working with all the Democrat legislators too as I'm just smart enough to know no one party has all the answers. If these attack maniacs actually are current legislators who are denigrating the open and trusted style of goverment we enjoy here in SD it opens up the legitimate question of why propaganda intended to place just a certain few legislators in negative views are being spewed into the communications channels. What they must interpret the rest of the legislature to be are robots voting exactly as leadership tells them. That is a damning proposition for anyone to make against the entire legisature and we all know totally untrue. Cory's postings here with many bills outlying disproves every negative attack ad they have sent. What is most troubling to me though is their usage of a child obviously reading a script some adult put in front of her telling her to read it. You of all people should be incensed by this and if you want to know why read this.
http://www.essortment.com/children-were-indoctrinated-third-reich-56687.html
Yes or no, Sibby. No waffleling.
"Steve,did you have a role, direct or indirect, in this postcard or robocall? Are you aware of who was involved? Are either Gordon Howie or Stace Nelson?"
And would supporting the First Amendment right of anonymous free speech include those who would do a witch on hunt to identify such citizens? Or would that better describe fascists and communists?
"If these attack maniacs actually are current legislators who are denigrating the open and trusted style of goverment we enjoy here in SD"
Charlie, the subjects on the postcard are these legislators who hold closed-door legislative caucuses.
" What they must interpret the rest of the legislature to be are robots voting exactly as leadership tells them."
Referred Law 14 proved that to be true. And how did the reversal happen on the amendment to turn the $8 million for Common Core training for the teachers into an increase in state aid?
"as you admit chicken to go face to face which textbook cowardly behaviour"
Yes but they seem to be smart chickens. Now will there be a serious effort to open the Republican legislative caucus and rules enforced that disallow executive branch interference next session Charlie? Or are you chickens going to continue to do things behind closed doors and not come face to face?
And note that I am disclosing my true identity here and the result is pressure to violating citizens' First Amendment right to free anonymous speech.
Charlie,
Exposing a legislator's voting record seems very mild compared to an anonymous Blog Watch Man starting a movement that included the depiction of ones family as a bunch of inbreed hillbillies on an anonymous web site that was promoted by Pat Powers and Todd Epp. Cory, did you promote that web site too?
Sibby the CryptoKnight, guarding the closet Clark Kent chicken wingnuts.
Which one is going to rip open his shirt and show us his big red "S?"
Bill, you are only showing more reason to protect the First Amendment right to anonymous free speech.
Steve I just find it really absurd that anyone would call these four South Dakotan's Anti-Veteran in three different communications without putting forth a name of another South Dakotan making the accusations. Let me be the first to say I met no one who was anti-veteran while serving in the legislature. I voted against ending the open fields doctrine though so if you use the theory these yahoos do I must be anti-hunting. Steve I think you are a pretty good guy and a pretty smart guy, but even smart good guys are wrong once in a while. :) And on this my friend you and the people putting out these negative communications are dead wrong.
The fact that you have a First Amendment right to anonymous free speech does not change the fact that such speech is morally inferior to nymous statements. Knowing who makes a statement is important so that we may understand motives and money behind such speech.
Steve, do you even listen to yourself.
When you say "Yes but they seem to be smart chickens. Now will there be a serious effort to open the Republican legislative caucus and rules enforced that disallow executive branch interference next session Charlie?" you are admitting the purpose of the postcard and robocall was directly motivated by legislative process, procedures and conduct you don't like.
So, these "smart chickens" used veterans to serve a purpose totally unrelated to veterans. And, at the same time characterized these three members of legislative leadership as "anti-veteran."
The hypocracy is tangible and self-convicting on the surface, the duplicity is obvious, and now the intentional deciet is admitted.
And, here is the worst rub. You preach Scripture and following Christ yet you should know it is never permissable to do evil to accomplish good. NEVER.
So rather than condoning/endorsing this behaviour as "smart", you should be condemning it for what it is- clear hypocracy, duplicity, and intentional deceipt.
Steve, privately and publicly I've come to your defense with regard to the goodness in your character (even when I've disagreed with you). All of us make mistakes (you have referenced the "depravity of man"), sometimes with good intentions in our zeal we don't see the action clearly. But, it is incumbent to sometimes step back and admit it was improper.
"you are admitting the purpose of the postcard and robocall was directly motivated by legislative process, procedures and conduct you don’t like."
No it was in response to those who call those citizens implementing their First Amendment right to anonymous free speech chickens. Second it was to point out that the SDGOP leadership also have secret political meetings themselves.
Cory I agree and I do disclose my identity. At the same time, I will protect the constitutional rights of those I disagree with.
Stop beating around the bush, Sibby. The question on the table is whether or not you personally had anything to do with this. So are you pleading the 5th or the 1st or what?
"the people putting out these negative communications are dead wrong."
Charlie, why is putting forward the voting records of legislators "negative communications"?
And another example of the proof a retaliation on those citizens who expose voting records is the treatment by legislators toward the SDGOs. So is the witch hunt here is to find out who so that any future legislative action can be discarded without considering the merit, but instead retribution for exposing votes of legislators to the citizens. So much for the open and trusted process that you claim Charlie. We have clear proof that some votes are for reasons more important to certain SDGOP thugs than protecting gun rights or free speech.
Fleming what is this to do about you a Democrat? Why are you and Cory defending RINOs and attacking the free speech of fellow citizens? Typical of fascists and communists.
(...a quick scan of old Blogmore archives will demonstrate that Sibby has been merciless and patently unsympathetic to anonymous posters in the past. This is a whole new line of hypocritical BS from him. Either that or proof that we are indeed evolving. Even the Sibbatolah.)
According to Lee, Sibby, this is all the work of some clever, anonymous, insidious, duplicitous liberals. Are you saying you disagree with him about that?
Well we now know he was involved.
'why is putting forward the voting records of legislators "negative communications"'
I think the key phrase was "dead wrong". Because Cory has used the facts to show that you guys are intellectually dishonest.
I feel sorry for the child dragged into this too. For having to share sms with one of you.
Yes Bill, I agree that the people behind this are chicken. At the same time I understand that chickens deserve First Amendment protections too. If it was entirely up to me, I would say it would be better to disclose the identity. Unfortunately in politics retribution can be severe enough that some feel uncomfortable identifying themselves. It is a testament to the depravity of man. It is also a testament on how important political power is nowadays which is directly related to amount of wealth that is controlled by the various governmental authorities. It is indirectly the fault of all who believe government is always the solution as that mindset has centralized so much wealth and power and has invited corruption. If we want fewer problems, then we need to reduce the size of government.
And to Lee's belief that this is being done by liberals. We are liberals like you and Cory attacking those who sent these cards out if in fact they are fellow liberals? Bill Fleming hates conservatives, so if the subjects on these cards were someone like me, you not be concerned about who was putting them out.
"Because Cory has used the facts to show that you guys are intellectually dishonest."
No he hasn't. Besides Cory is a master at being intellectually dishonest himself. He is a master at twisting statistics.
A lot of jaw jacking by some high & mighty hypocrites does not change these three's crappy voting records on veterans' issues.
Slime? I agree this is a slime attack, their voting records on veterans issues are slimey. They own that, nobody else.
@Hoffman I am a veteran and I agree with the damn postcard. I witnessed the exact attitude that is suggested in the card from Gosch & Lust. Cronin appeared to be simply hanging out with the wrong crowd. You forget, it was 3 snakes (2 pictured on the postcard I am appreciating in my hand) that lied to the world and claimed I threatened to kill Moser AND claimed I was suffering from PTSD. And for the record, you voted AGAINST my bill to stop GF&P from entering properly illegally first in committee, then FOR it in committee (promised to support it at Murphy's dad's wake) and then voted AGAINST the bill on the House floor. One could claim you didn't support private property rights, which incidently is a SDGOP plank.
You wonder why people don't want to come out and identify themselves? Hell, look at the BS poor Pat Powers and his family just went through. Look at the cowardly attacks I went through for us simply asking questions about reports of misconduct by an LRC member!
You folks gave me all the credit for the report card last time, I told you I had very little involvement. Folks like honest people who stand up to this kind of BS, to the crooked politics in Pierre. They don't have a problem with people putting out information on voting records no matter how much the politicians and their wanna be power brokers scream.
I told Montegomery my involvement as I was walking out the door for vacation. I spent the last 4 days getting burnt to a crisp putting miles on my Harley.
Please! Give me undue credit like you did the last time!
Evil, Jones? Really? Moses! It's these guys' voting records, are you calling them evil? Heck, that is a little overboard.
I don't see a denial anywhere in there. Taunia asked a pretty specific question.
You were calling me a coward for posting anonymously, how does hypocrisy taste, coward?
@Justin Run along little fella, so cute! Like that cute litle Russian hamster http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/animals/Hamster_Attack/
I guess I see their point, Stace & Sibby.
Better to stay anonymous than to run the risk that our sly coven of sardonic liberals will call down the Great New Age Pumpkin's wrath of ridicule on their ridiculously puny cucumber patches, huh?
LOL
Representative Nelson it is going to be a very interesting session. Military leadership skills needed in taking out objectionary forces to the mission work very well in war time manuevers but in the real world of a democratic society politically speaking there are actually two opinions which matter. Yours and Mine. Or are we actually at war here in your mind and all that matters is what you want done and passed and put forth onto the Governors desk? For taking out everyone who does not agree with your way of thinking might be an old military tactic but in the legislature it does not seem to work very well; from what I have witnessed. Or are you an Aristotle Onassis fan and keep a black book on everyone who votes against one of your bills? Geeze if we all played that game than I should have put out postcards against everyone who voted against my bill transfering three day waterfowl tags out of the Missouri River basin where they were not being sold and called all those folks Communists and against economic integrity of our rural areas. The bill died , game over, work harder next year and bring a better bill. But for God's sake don't act like a little kid who had his sucker stolen and throw things at the bigger kids who took it away from you.
@Charlie Why is it that every time you throw the dance music out there you get peeved when someone calls you on it? You made the reference to the issue you voted against, I gave the proper historic context of the issue. It is what happened and it was your votes on the issue. As your constituent emailed me, the governor's office implimented my bill several months later.
The opinions that should matter to you are South Dakotans, because they are the ones that truly matter.
Black book? No; however, would I not be a fool to remember the absolute promise you made to me and Murphy of your support for the bill and the shock of then having you get up and do ANOTHER 180 against the bill after your passioned statement & promise of support?
Ironic you meantion that bill of yours, I told you I would support it and I did.
Funny you should frame it such a fashion. You mentioned once that you knew their claims were a lie that I had threatened to kill Moser, and yet you stood by and not only allowed them to do that you did nothing when they even talked of trying to concoct another dog and pony show to throw me out of the legislature. What really bothers you is not your lack of effort to do the right thing, but the grating knowledge that I demonstrated ("chicken sh*t" protest on gerrymandering) that I would have never allowed them to do that to you, Lora Hubbel, or even Frank Kloucek, without expending every effort to oppose such wrong doing.
In my experience, the sucker stealers get their just deserves in the end. It may take time, but I trust the Good Lord to work His will in the end.
"but in the legislature it does not seem to work very well"
Pragmatism over priniples is a very dangerous trap Charlie.
With a lot boiling in the pot now, let me zero in on a couple of statements:
(1) Stace, using Pat to make your argument about anonymity isn't the best tack. Part of the decline in quality in Pat's blog came from the anonymity and non-engagement of its author, "Bill Clay." (My latest theory: BC is a Gant flunky who's too busy now picking up the office slack from Pat's departure to spare any brain cells for blogging, which was clearly above BC's abilities even when Gant gave him time to do it.) DWC's readworthiness (and rebut-worthiness) has increased since Pat's return specifically because we know who the speaker is and can hold him accountable if necessary.
I do not think it is "evil" or "slimy" to attack a criticize legislators for their votes. Saying, "You voted for Bad Bill X; what's up with that?" is a great political strategy, and a cornerstone of my own blogging. (Folks running against Gosch, Lust, Olson, Hickey, et al. should pound the crap out of them for voting for HB 1234.) Such attacks force candidates to put down the babies and puppies and flags they're cuddling and explain real policy. Such responses offer great insight into whether candidates know their stuff or whether (as will prove to be the case when they offer their hommina-homminas to defend HB 1234) they are dopes or dupes.
In this post, I'm simply pointing out some responses Lust et al. might offer to these attacks. The bills aren't slam-dunk "We love veterans!" policies. Three of them were unfunded mandates proposed during a session working on historic fiscal austerity. One was withdrawn by its own sponsor as not ready for consideration.
It's important to know who the players in this attack are and what their agenda is. (And I will happily grant them big blog coverage if they want to grant me an exclusive interview... or they could just hit the comment section with their own words!) But even as we establish those facts, it is important that we use their criticism of the GOP leadership's voting record as a launching point for a discussion of the policy needs of veterans and other citizens, not a name-calling slugfest (stern hint! ;-) ).
Nice job staying above the fray, Cory. I on the other hand should probably go to confession or something. Mea maxima culpa.
I just know we'll never resolve who can knock whom out, Stace or Charlie (though we could sell tickets to that match, and have Dean Schrempp ref!).
Maybe they could have a wedgie contest.
Representative Nelson your actions on the House floor were unbecoming of a State Legislator. Had I thought you were going to kill Moser I would have called 911 and while you had him backing up with your loud booming voice he did stop and take it quite well. Had the heated exchange happened outside on the parking lot it would not have been a big deal.
My votes on the Open Fields doctrine were ebbing and flowing and though I ended up not voting along with you I have learned a very good lesson. Never ever tell anyone you are going to vote for or against any bill until after hearing all testimony in committee and on the House floor. BTW if you re-read your bill and then look at the dictation the Governor gave the GF&P; common ground was found with part of but not the entire bill. I find it interesting how you seem to throw me under the bus for voting against this bill in the interest of landowner rights but we find your name on 2011's HB 1068 which would have stripped all landowners rights away from selling their own land to whomever they please. Common law dictates otherwise yet this picking and choosing specific votes to slam those you find antagonistic do not look like that of a Stateman Sir!! I could find more which if taken alone would make you look quite liberal. Enough though. This Tit for Tat gets us nowhere and the PEOPLE want us to work together so before I make that impossible I am going to appologize for voting against your bill Stace and honestly I; after hearing testimony on the House Floor, will work with you on any good legislation also good for District 23 and the entire State of SD. Truly on my part enough has been said.
"Never ever tell anyone you are going to vote for or against any bill until after hearing all testimony in committee and on the House floor."
Is that the advice you get in the closed door caucus Charlie?
Guys I'm back on the treadmill after seeing how great Speaker Gosch looks and know that by January I will be able to run faster scared than Nelson can mad. :) JOKE!!! Sarcasm...............:)
Sibby I am done here my friend. Los Lobos!!!!!!
@Charlie In addition to being a windvane politician you have just graduated to the ranks of a first class liar. Regardless, in my old line of work we call what you just typed an admission! You admitted before that you knew the story that I threatened to kill him was a lie, and you just confirmed it again here! Now you feel the need to justify their misconduct and your cowardice by fabricating more to justify you and these other scoundrels dishonesty.
FACT: There were Legislators on the floor still at their desks that NEVER heard a word of the conversation nor knew that Moser and I had exchanged MUTUAL unpleasent comments in the conversation.
FACT: The chamber is designed for voices to carry and legislators are oft warned to becareful in their conversations lest people overhear in the gallery that they don't want to!
FACT: I was moving away from Moser when I made my comments and there were several desks between us. He never moved from where he stood.
While Moser and my conversation was an unfortunate mutual disagreement, you and your sucker stealing friends lying about it and claiming it was something more than what it was to try and ILLEGALY get rid of a fellow legislator, that is a conspiracy to commit a felonious crime.
Lastly, it's your own voting record that throws you under the bus as well as your windvane ways. You bragged to your own constituent that you weren't voting on the merits of bills but how leadership instructed you.
Well, Charlie, as long as you can curry favor enough to get that position on the GF&P Commission you are always talking about, I am sure you will vote whichever way that wind blows.
Now scurry off and join the rest of your sucker stealing friends.
And people ask me why I won't get involved in politics at any level.
Caramel or butter flavored popcorn for sale! nom nom
Taunia you and I are of similar minds I was about to post the exact same thing! I guess ill have to grab a tray of cotton candy and see if anybody is hungry for that.
In regards to Rep. Hoffman's comments about 2011's HB 1068, please reread them and then read the bill http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2011/index.aspx as the bill would indicate, it was a great traditional Republican bill to reign in government spending as well as the spread of government control of land. Charlie, and his sucker stealing buddies killed it in State Affairs committee so that the House couldn't vote on it. Imagine that..
http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2011/Bill.aspx?Bill=1068
Charlie says: "...HB 1068 which would have stripped all landowners rights away from selling their own land to whomever they please." Reading the act, that part must be between the lines. Can you guys explain this to us? How could what Charlie's talking about become the net effect?
The fact that you have a First Amendment right to anonymous free speech ???
I know this is different than the little tit for tat Charlie, Stace, and Steve, but this is a big problem. Free Speech is never guaranteed to anonymous. That is the problem with non-discloser of funding since the Supreme Court has ruled that money is speech. If Cory wanted everyone to verify their identity before posting, that is his right to not post. He choose to allow people to post without revealing their full identity since it would probably have a chilling effect and decrease the comments. If someone chooses to make a comment to the general public attacking another and causing potential harm it should never be in the dark.
I know that I do not post my full name, but that is because of attacks in the past and I choose to challenge ideas and not make attacks against a certain person. If I want to write a letter condemning to an editor of the paper, I would post my correct identity. If I want to speak up against a specific rule or person, I won't hide behind a sheet, but will speak out loud. If I decide that the risk is too great, the cost to much, then I will choose to hold my tongue.
The billl basically removed the authority for the GF&P, DENR, Board of Regents, etc. from buying land over 80 acres without specific legislative approval.
From the standpoint of the seller, the delay to get approval (and uncertainty) could have a chilling effect on the willingness to deal with the state. It could also remove the state agency from being a legitimate buyer (ie seller is distressed) and effectively decreasing the price because their is fewer bidders. Thus resulting in the stripping away of rights, even if he is willing to sell for a cheaper price becuase the seller prefers the purpose of the GF&P or DENR for instance.
MJL,
On one hand I disagree with you. I do think anonymous speech is generally allowed. In fact, I think the court recently ruled on this.
This said, you raise a greater point. We have the "right" to do a lot of despicable things. But it doesn't mean it is moral, good or just.
Personally, I think if you are going to denigrate a person's character, you should be willing to place your own character and name under the same scrutiny. Failure to do so, even out of fear of retaliatoin (as in similar castigation and not being put in a prison) does not pass a moral, just, good test for me. In fact, I think personal criticism of another's motive/character demands you disclose your name.
Ah. Good explanation, Troy. Thanks. Sounds like Charlie has a legitimate point then. Stace, have you considered that your bill may have unintended consequences?
Out for a couple hours of work and all H__l breaks loose once again with integrity of unintended consequences coming full circle in this idiotic game of "I WANT TO BE MAJORITY LEADER!!!"
Representative Nelson you are always right. You are always the only TRUE Republican. You are the only person South Dakota can trust. And hollering at Representative Moser; "I will eat you alive!" was just a fun little exercise in rough diplomacy meant only for fun!!
Go find something to do with yourself Representative Nelson!!
"Go find something to do with yourself Representative Nelson!!"
translation: GFY?
lol
@Bill I have ocean front property in Hanson County if you truly bought Troy's explanation of how “…HB 1068 which would have stripped all landowners rights away from selling their own land to whomever they please.†I notice Troy runs from discussing the Republican aspects of the bill.
@Charlie I have personally told you I am NOT interested and am NOT running for any position if the folks here deem fit to re-elect me. So more dishonest Charlie H. BS.
One of the great things about getting suspects to talk, is they can never keep their lies straight over the period of the interview. What is it, Charlie? Which one of each of the statements you made is it? I threatened to kill him, I didn't threaten to kill him? I said "I would bury you (Moser) alive" ? or "I will eat you (Moser) alive" ? or as testified and submitted in a sworn statement "Stop the personal attacks in debates or I will return the favor during debates and eat you alive on the floor."
What kind of man swears on his honor at another man's dad's funeral to do something and then wind vanes because of his GF&P Commission aspirations would be hurt if he honored his word? word = $ 0.00
180, 360, 540, 720... round and round he goes, where he stops, only the directions of the politically advantageous wind vane knows.
Only smart thing Charlie said all day was to go do something.
On the Jim River? How much, Stace? Any tax liens on it?
Come on, man, explain to us why Troy's explanation isn't sufficient enough to vote no on your bill. It clearly prohibits a person from "selling to whomever they please" under the circumstances Troy listed, and might well result in a person getting a lower than market price for the land. I would probably vote against your bill too unless you found a way to deal with those concerns.
You need to learn how not to believe everything you think, Stace. There are lots of other people around as smart as you are. Some maybe even smarter. I'm just sayin'.
GFY: That was my interpretation of that too, Justin.
Btw, have either Stacey or Steve answered the previous question(s) concerning their involvement? I see all kinds of breakdancing.
breakdancing. good one.
Mr. Nelson is insaner than most, but he is not behind these cowardly and niggardly phone calls. The crows might be pickin' at his flesh and he's got no control of the sitchiation.
I got a post card too and I fear I may know which ostrich belt wearing slimenuks are behind this. Worse yet I fear that the Conservatives with Common Sense bear some of the blame.
A few years ago at the annual CWCS board meeting at VFW post 9273 there was a lot of discussion about this exact tactic. It was soundly shouted down as cowardly and niggardly, but three members chose to leave our group that day and one went as far as dumping his taters and sausages and gravy into the bin untasted.
I think one of these insaner people took this idea and ran with it. I am to blame. Do not throw your hate on Mr. Nelson as he has never been invited to join the Conservatives with Common Sense, he is but a pawn in some devil's game.
The First Amendment does protect anonymous speech. See the Electronic Frontier Foundation's really good brief on the topic, with citation of the apparently important McIntyre vs. Ohio Elections Commission. However, MJL is right that the First Amendment does not require me or your local newspaper to permit anonymous speech on our pages.
Stace,
I was asked a specific question by Bill. I answered that question. I was not asked to discuss any other aspects of the bill. But you notice and presume anything your pretty little mind wants. You really do make me laugh, in a bimbo sort of way.
Next PAC attack postcard topic: list of votes on bills concerning property rights! I'd love to see these mystery men follow Charlie and Stace down their path and look at our legislators' votes on eminent domain and all of Betty Olson's GF&P-hatin' bills (like HB 1068) that end up restricting landowners' ability to practice conservation.
@Troy Jones While we have never met, and thus I have never heard what I would imagine to be your girlish laugh, I would bet you to be correct and that it surely is in a bimbo sort of way..
Stace, really? That's it?
We give you a chance to explain why your bill was needed and an opportunity to give counter arguments critical to it in front of a thoughtful audience, and the best you can come up with is to insult someone you've never met about how you think his laugh might sound?
Is that how you explain your bills to your consituents? Especially one who might agree with Charlie? WTF?
Come on, man, act like a legislator will ya?
And if you don't like being called a clown, stop acting like one.
@Bill Good to see you calling the shots in a fair & balanced fashion. I simply returned his asinine comment to the fold where that chicken came from.
The bill was not mine. Regardless, there is no thoughtful discussion about the merits of that bill here nor in the legislature. According to you & Jones' logic above, you think you should be able to approach any state employee and be allowed to convince them to purchase your property on behalf of the citizens of SD, or your "rights" are being violated.
The rest of your comments, water off a duck's back. I confess the irony of being told by YOU to man up, act like a legislator, and being called a clown by YOU does tickle my funny bone. Thanks for the laughs.
Allowing GFP or DENR to buy any land in the state is a direct assault against the tribes, any legislator opposing these criminal acts is okay by me.
DENR is out to buy up all the reservation land so they can build dams and kill kitties.
If I were a legislator I would answer your question and refrain from acting like a jackass.
Grudz, go get me a cheeseburger or sometning.
Double cheese, extra mustard, light sprinkling of coriander on its way. To Ifrits like usual, or to D&D's over on the 600 block of East Blvd, like the old days?
Coriander? Nice touch! A gourmand and a contrarian. Interesting.