The good folks of Chamberlain held their high school graduation ceremony yesterday. Students sat through the standard White/Western formalities organized by the majority culture inside the high school. After that ceremony, students received a second ceremonial recognition from members of the minority culture. Members of the Crow Creek and Lower Brule tribes, who said they were forbidden from assembling on school grounds, stood across the street from Chamberlain High School and drummed out their Lakota honor song, not just for the one third of the graduating seniors who are Indian, but for all of Chamberlain's graduates.
Maybe I'm just a colonialist poser, but the sound of Lakota voices raised in sincere, passionate, and defiant song stirs me more than any mechanical, occasionally flat rendition of Edward Algar's orchestral work. It's more authentic and dignified than marching students out to a recording of the Black Eyed Peas. (Such were the processional and recessional music choices here at Spearfish Sunday.) The Lakota honor song is music from the land we inhabit/occupy. It is a powerful reminder to the graduates of the challenges their home state faces and the reconciliation they must work to forge as they join us as full adult members of South Dakota society.
Meanwhile, Spearfish graduates, teachers, family, and friends, were treated to a different show of majority culture arrogance. There was no controversy leading up to the Spearfish graduation. Salutatorian Samantha Sleep came to the podium to make a speech with fellow salutatorian Elise Reid. After thanking Mr. Pat Gainey for his excellent Constitutional Government class, Miss Sleep called on everyone in the public school gymnasium to bow his or her head in prayer with her. With her father, school board member Jeff Sleep, duly bowed in his seat behind her at the podium, Samantha invoked the Heavenly Father (just one, just male). She quoted Jeremiah from the Christian Bible. She thanked that Heavenly Father for "granting us life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," thus conflating the Bible and the Declaration of Independence.
Most of the audience applauded this public display of majority piety, giving Miss Sleep that collective, smug, winking pat on the back that says, "Boy, you showed them!"... where the only them being showed is decent folks who recognize the wisdom of the Founding Fathers in protecting the integrity of both church and state by keeping them separate.
The Lakota honor song can include all students. The tribal members who offered their voices in praise of Chamberlain's graduates could have broken the rules, brought it inside, and interrupted the graduation ceremony with an act of civil disobedience. Instead, they respected the stated policy of their school board and offered their song afterward, off school grounds.
A Christian prayer excludes some students. The graduate who snuck her prayer (and she had to sneak it through, without school review, for it to have a chance of being legal) into the ceremony took advantage of public resources to engage in the sort of subtle psychological coercion that, if conducted by school officials like her dad at the very same microphone would have violated the Constitution.
We don't need more prayers in school. We could use more Lakota honor songs.
Mr. Yellow Thunder sang a Lakota Honoring Song at RC Central's commencement yesterday.
Mr. Bad Moccasin did an Honor Song for the T. F. Riggs graduates in Pierre on Sunday. One of the student speakers briefly encouraged the graduates to follow Christian-based values but there were no prayers.
Cory, your comment about the Black Eyed Peas sparked an idea in my head; couldn't the entire student body vote on choosing an honor song/chant for their class song? It'd be a heckuva lot better than playing some canned pop song... and would have the force of the student body behind it.
If you would like to see Sid Bad Moccasin, Jr.'s performance at the Riggs High School commencement, you can go to: http://www.oahetv.com and it's about 12 minutes into the program.
Eliminate all ethnically-slanted or religious mythology or music at graduation ceremonies. Neither Pomp and Circumstance nor Native American humbug nor odes to Scandinavian gods nor English drinking songs, not even :Happy Days are here Again". Make sure graduation is just as boring as most high school classes.
I have yet to hear from any apologists of stone-age culture of the actual wonders of such flawed culture that have any relevance whatsoever to the needs and aspirations of current students..
And then force everyone to wear silver lame jumpsuits and combine their zygotes in test tubes, because making the world devoid of all natural culture will make it a perfect utopia.
Bravo DW Bravo That"s the only way it will work for everyone. Total exclusion or total inclusion, it should be all or nothing.
The Bllindman
Shouldn't graduation be all about graduating ? Isn't culture another thing all together?
Culture and religion are a lot alike. They are better served within the circle of their particular church or ethnic group.
The Blindman
Now days we teach kids in school to accept other cultures and see good in each group and their differences and similarities. The whole reason for a graduation is to honor the graduates. Honoring their own cultures and religious freedoms could include Honor songs and Prayers, or we could just not do that and teach them by our actions that what we taught them all along is not workable.
Where I grew up they had a saying, 'Your actions speak louder than your words'. So banning the honor song or a prayer teaches the kids that you can not tollerate differences no matter what you tried to teach them.
Alas, Wayne, the Black Eyed Peas song was chosen by the seniors as their class song.
Culture is the soup in which we swim. We cannot conduct a culture-free commencement. We wear clothes, we open our mouths to speak -- boom! Culture.
Allowing a Lakota honor song doesn't entail sanctifying every cultural practice and historical action of the Lakota people any more than saying "Shalom" to Stan Adelstein says we think turning Jesus in to Pilate was a good idea.
Well: no wonder Democrats are losing South Dakota if comments in this thread are any indicator. You got your wish, Cory.
"Now days we teach kids in school to accept other cultures and see good in each group and their differences and similarities. The whole reason for a graduation is to honor the graduates."
Roger that in itself is the very thing that I'm trying to get across. But then you wrote this.
"Honoring their own cultures and religious freedoms could include Honor songs and Prayers, or we could just not do that and teach them by our actions that what we taught them all along is not workable."
No that's not it at all. Lets say there are some that are a quarter Korean, do we then celebrate their culture to? How about someone that is Spanish? Do we "oh my gosh" celebrate someone that is part Arab? When did graduation become a culture honoring event?
And then this. "Where I grew up they had a saying, 'Your actions speak louder than your words'. So banning the honor song or a prayer teaches the kids that you can not tolerate differences no matter what you tried to teach them."
Lets be honest about this. The school district didn't really ban the honor song did they? No what they did do was not allow the honor song to be done in the first place. Big difference isn't it? Isn't an honor song at graduation like giving a special honor to someone that is of a certain race because they are specifically of a certain race?
For me it has nothing to do with tolerating or not tolerating differences. If you teach your child the difference they will be ok. What graduation means to me is that all the children did the very same thing, they graduated, together. Sure some had better grades then others but they graduated together. From that point of what they do has everything to do with personal responsibility and fortitude, not what did or didn't happen during graduation.
The Blindman
What part of "the school is 30% native" don't you understand? Not to mention the school accomodates the students of two SEPARATE NATIONS.
They will be lucky if someone doesn't sue the Spearfish School District and School Board, Mr. Sleep in his public and private status, and if Ms. Sleep is 18, then her too. Evidently Ms. Sleep failed to learn the vital constitutional government lessons of religious tolerance and accommodation lessons the founding fathers learned from Europe's religious wars and the imposition of religious clan membership in many colonies (later states) as requirements to vote, hold office, attend school, or even engage in some forms of commerce. Apparently they violated not only the Constitution, but also the command of their deity (Matthew 6:5-6). Sad day for Spearfish. Perhaps Spearfish needs to allow students to speak in a private venue but not at public graduation.
I don't think being a jerk is considered a violation of the Constitution.
" What part of "the school is 30% native" don't you understand?"
Believe me Bree I understand every word you have written. Why should that percentage mean anything? If everyone is equal, everyone is equal, or are you implying that isn't the case?
"Not to mention the school accommodates the students of two SEPARATE NATIONS."
And all of those kids are going to the same school in Chamberlain in South Dakota, a state in the United States of America. If the very same students were going to a reservation based school the shoe would be on the other foot, but it isn't. You seem to want the graduation class separated by culture and race. I like everyone treated the same.
By the way all native students that graduate twelfth grade get star quilts that are enrolled in the tribe here on the Pine Ridge whether they live on or off of the reservation. Now I'm not complaining here but what message does that send to the students of other cultures and races that are not native American?
Bree this isn't about cultural diversity, its about recognizing cultural differences but understanding that even with those differences we are all one people here on this earth. We as a human race wont survive any other way. That's why the pledge used to say "one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all," not liberty and justice for certain people.
The Blindman
I love the definition of mandated sameness by liberals like you for the word "equal."
I don't even know where you find in my statements any suggestion that I want to separate the class by culture and race. Mind-boggling.
Your last sentence supports my argument, and not yours. I don't think you even have the slightest comprehension what the word "liberty" means. Or the word "justice." Because if you understood the meaning of those words then you would comprehend that a JUST majority supports the FREEDOM of a minority to be different.
In fact, I find myself struggling to respond to your post, because I find it incoherent and nonsensical. Your logical circles appear to be squares.
Bree I've straddled this cultural fence that I'm setting on for a long time. In July it will be sixty years. In that time I have had verbal stones thrown at me from both sides of that fence.
On the one side are some people that would very much like to be living back in the forties or fifties of the last century. On the other side are a few that would like to go clear back to the seventeen and eighteen hundreds.
Fortunately there are a lot of clear headed people that live on either side of the fence that understand the year is now 2013 not either of the above. We cant go back, we can only go forward. That's not just life but reality. Nuff Said
The Blindman
And life goes on.
The Blindman
Chamberlain is in the US of America. I am pretty sure. I have seen children from Italy and Sweden and Ireland and Germany and Botswana graduate in schools around South Dakota. Nobody played O'Canada for them.
Yup Bree that's how I feel some times. Like a square in a circle. Just for you.
http://grooveshark.com/s/Square+In+A+Circle/3eQVls?src=5
This is not about equality, it is about special privileges for a minority and denial of that equality for other minorities.
As for pulling tribal money out of banks, sounds like that is their right and apparently there are banks on the reservation anyway...at least the tribal rush to pick up checks there collapsed the bank floor a few months ago.
The tribe can also set up their own grocery store. That too seems perfectly OK to me.
Grudznick, if a school was 30% students of another nation (let's say Canada) requesting the playing of the Canadian National Anthem would be entirely reasonable.
If you asked Ron Paul about the Indian Reservations, I'm pretty sure he'd tell you they are separate nations.
We don't get to cherry-pick the Constitution, and it would be dishonest to renege on past treaties. The law isn't about convenience.
What does the US Constitution have to do with the "right" to demand special privileges?
Interesting that we honored the memory of Governor George Mickelson this year as a great leader. Unfortunately, part of his legacy has been trashed by those that claim to honor him.
http://www.sdpb.org/tv/shows.aspx?MediaID=57879&ParmAccessLevel=sdpb-all&Parmtype=RADIO
Mickelson says, “Reconciliation must be an encouragement of all South Dakotan’s to educate each other to improve communication and to share with each other so the end result is a mutual understanding and respect.”
..."Mickelson’s Year of Reconciliation is his greatest legacy. Unfortunately, though, after Mickelson’s tragic death in 1993 efforts set forth from the Year of Reconciliation fizzled out."
Mickelson says, “Reconciliation must be an encouragement of all South Dakotan’s to educate each other to improve communication and to share with each other so the end result is a mutual understanding and respect.”
The Chamberlain leaders either hated Mickelson or they flunked South Dakota history. Guessing that they reluctantly lowered their flags to half staff to honor the fallen Governor and his ideals.
Apparently, Wiken, you don't believe the citizens of a sovereign nation have any rights. We should all beg for scraps from the government instead - so that we can all be "equal."
Yesterday was a first for The Blindman. Last evening I was setting on a park bench on main street Madville with my vaporizer in my hand talking to the people passing by. It was fun and we were having some good discussions when BAM Bree came around the corner riding her Schwinn going like a bat out of hell.
"Your a jerk" she yelled, and then something about the constitution, but by then she was down the block and I couldn't really hear her to good.
It was still pretty early in the evening, and I have never let a little name calling stop me from enjoying myself, so I decided just to stay put for a couple of hours. Then WAM down the street comes DB with his Harley chopper demanding that I give his man thing another look with my measuring tape.
Well DB I'm sorry if I stepped on that monster hanging between your legs, you should really find some way to confine the beast before it gets a case of road rash.
There I hope I've fixed everything that was broken. Now on to other things. First this from Bree.
"I love the definition of mandated sameness by liberals like you for the word "equal."
I have never heard of " mandated sameness" let alone tried to give a definition of what it is. Stop trying to put words in my mouth that I haven't said.
Then this nugget. "I don't even know where you find in my statements any suggestion that I want to separate the class by culture and race."
And all the time I thought that was what we were talking about, adding to a graduation ceremony for a certain segment of the population. Then this.
"Your last sentence supports my argument, and not yours. I don't think you even have the slightest comprehension what the word "liberty" means. Or the word "justice."
Lets see here.
1.
freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
2.
freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
3.
freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.
4.
freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.
5.
permission granted to a sailor, especially in the navy, to go ashore.
Nope I understand what liberty means. How about 'justice"
Variations of justice
Utilitarianism is a form of consequentialism, where punishment is forward-looking. Justified by the ability to achieve future social benefits resulting in crime reduction, the moral worth of an action is determined by its outcome.
Retributive justice regulates proportionate response to crime proven by lawful evidence, so that punishment is justly imposed and considered as morally correct and fully deserved. The law of retaliation (lex talionis) is a military theory of retributive justice, which says that reciprocity should be equal to the wrong suffered; "life for life, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."[13]
Restorative justice is concerned not so much with retribution and punishment as with (a) making the victim whole and (b) reintegrating the offender into society. This approach frequently brings an offender and a victim together, so that the offender can better understand the effect his/her offense had on the victim.
Distributive justice is directed at the proper allocation of things—wealth, power, reward, respect—among different people.
No problem there either.
Bree either a thought is logical or it isn't. I've never claimed to be a wordsmith but after rereading my post I found that my intentions were clear. Maybe a remedial reading course is in order for you.
Now I'm sure that Grudz can defend his own self but let me in on that little bit of wisdom you shot at him.
"Grudznick, if a school was 30% students of another nation (let's say Canada) requesting the playing of the Canadian National Anthem would be entirely reasonable"
I'm not sure why we keep talking about 30% being special. After all this school isn't on the reservation it is in the state of SD. And no I could care less if the Canadians want their national anthem played or not if they are going to school in the US.
While I'm here, why would I ask Ron Paul about anything when I have lived here my whole life. I have stated a couple of years ago that Ron is like a crazy relative that you go to visit in the mental institution. He's fun to be around for a couple of hours but you sure as hell don't want him living with ya.
"We don't get to cherry-pick the Constitution, and it would be dishonest to renege on past treaties. The law isn't about convenience."
How did I know that we would get around to that.
The treaties that you speak of were broken by both parties and yet? At what point do we consider a treaty irrelevant? Would that be when the percentage of native blood can no longer be measured because the Europeans whose blood also flows through their veins is just to strong? Or would that be when the last person has an Indian thought?
Like it or not that time is coming sooner or later. Fewer full bloods and half-bloods , "the very ones that the treaties were signed with in the first place," and more of less and less blood percentage all the time.
How do we logically continue down this same road? Just asking.
"Apparently, Wiken, you don't believe the citizens of a sovereign nation have any rights. We should all beg for scraps from the government instead - so that we can all be "equal."
Isn't that the very thing that is happening now? How's that working out for ya?
I'm looking for a better way of life for my Indian friends, not more of the same. I want them to give themselves opportunities that free them from the binds or the federal government. I'm looking for equality for all peoples, not special treatment for some because of failed treaty.
I didn't write the treaties and I didn't break the treaties. You didn't write the treaties and you didn't break the treaties. That happened long before either of us were a thought in our ancestors brains. Why do we continue to beat each other up for something we had no control over?
The answer to that question is simple. Because there are people that want to be treated equal, but in a special way. Therein lies the rub.
The Blindman
It's clear that some people have no honor.
WORDS.
The Blindman
Also, I never called you a jerk. Go back and reread.
Cutting and pasting the intellectual definition of the word "liberty" does not demonstrate a comprehension of meaning.
Wow. Do you have any idea what you have said when you stated "WHEN THE LAST PERSON HAS AN INDIAN THOUGHT." I can't even put into words my shock at that statement.
This is my last post on the subject so lets just cut right to the chase. I have one question for you Bree. If you can answer it without getting all fired up about what has been said by me we might get something accomplished here.
What is it exactly that you want for our native friends?
The Blindman
I have walked around the house this entire time in a disbelieving haze that you could even make that statement, and it has taken me until now to come out of that shock and become angry. Better that you had said "when the last Indian has been put to the knife" than what you stated - because then at least the thoughts of a people have a chance to live on.
I want for them what I want for every nation, every people - I WANT THEM TO BE FREE.
The humbug about a special honor song and resistance is just another good excuse for failure by Native Americans. Many of them want to do good work and improve their and their families lot, but far too many are looking for excuses to justify failure.
Who are you to dictate to a people a "better way of life?"
Bree I'm going to break my own rule and post again. Please dont take what I have written and misquote or take it out of context. You know very well that it was not a statement but a question, hense the ? after the question.
Now why arent the natives free? Simple question how about an answer of some kind. "I want for them what I want for every nation, every people - I WANT THEM TO BE FREE." just seems to be side stepping the question.
The Blindman
They're not free because people like you issue formal apologies and then trample on their rights.
I'm having trouble here, "can't tell the players without a score card." Are any of you posters members of a Native American tribe? Just wondering.
And now there are two more questions. Why would I apologize if I didn't do anything in the first place?
And second. How exactly did I trample on their rights without even knowing about it?
I'm already fuming mad, do you want to pick a fight?
That last post was to Jesse.
Bill Dithmer, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Go buy a copy of the CONSTITUTION and read it.
No, Bree, I'm not looking to pick a fight. I've no idea who any of you are and I'm wondering where you are coming from in your opinions. I thought I was asking a simple question.
No Jessie I'm not a member of a tribe. I was born and raised here on the Pine Ridge and have lived here my entire life. Like I said before I ride a cultural fence when it comes to native issues. Sometimes its like a bucking barrel and is hard to stay on but that's just the way it is.
I am what you would call an osmosis Indian. I have lived their problems for so long it is a part of me now. I have never wanted anything but better things for my native friends and neighbors. That's it.
The Blindman
I'm a Constitutionalist Republican and that is where I am coming from. Wiken is a Socialist Democrat. I don't know about Dithmer but he's clearly quite liberal.
Dithmer, it's beyond me how you could live so close to a people and yet develop so little respect for their culture that you would discuss nonchalantly the supposedly inevitable destruction of their entire way of life, the swallowing of their nation by European blood, until finally no more does any person have an Indian thought.
Hold on Bree, I have only the deepest respect for the culture, so dont even go there. I do not ask these questions "nonchalantly" I ask because I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. After all I live here I think I've earned the right to ask.
The Blindman
Bill and Bree, thank you for answering my question.
All you do is talk in circles. You speak and say nothing, and bleat out both sides of your mouth. You have no respect for truth.
Sorry, Jessie that was to Dithmer lol.
Are you native american Bree?
The Blindman
Am I required to be Native American to have an opinion on this? I am a typical American mutt and my heritage is none of your concern.
What a coincidence so am I
The Blindman
Do you live on a reservation Bree?
The Blindman
I am already aware of the fact that since you live on a Reservation you think your opinions have a greater weight. There is no need to carry your lame argument to its conclusion.
And yet you dare to question my respect for the culture that has always surrounded me. Now that's sad.
The Blindman
Oh, you went there anyway. Go tell your neighbors how their grandchildren will never have an Indian thought.
Anyway, the only American Indian in this discussion was Jesse, which I see now that I've calmed down.
Bree I'm going to try to give you an idea of how I feel about where I live and who I am.
I have walked among the ghost of a people that lived here long before the white man came.
I have set alone at night many times on Pass Creek and heard the sound of beating hooves when there were no animals around to make that sound.
I have felt the hot breath of the buffalo when there were no buffalo any where near.
I have seen things that cant be explained and met men that made shivers run down my body just to be near them.
And I have heard the drums when no drums could be found. I wrote a song about those drums many years ago and it is as true today as it was then.
I have lived this way my whole life. It isn't just something that comes and goes like it is for many others. It is a feeling for the past that gives me hope for the future. It might be hard or impossible for someone to understand these feelings that hasn't lived this life. All I can say to that is I try to do no harm to the people or the planet, is it to much to expect the same from others?
The Blindman
Pretender.
Interesting discussion. I'll chime in with a little tangent and see how it plays. I submit that "thought" is a function of language. And if I'm right, Dithmer's point of no return for indigenous culture comes when the language dies, and the corresponding indigenous internal dialogue ceases. Jared Diamond writes at length about this in his books "The Third Chimpanzee" and "Guns, Germs and Steel," bemoaning the fact that the languages of the world are all dying. Interestingly, around half of the "living" languages on our planet are in New Guinea.
Sidenote: It's refreshing to see Bree taking the position she is, and even more so that I find myself agreeing with her for a change.
Carry on friends. Sorry for the little aside.
BF you are right sir.
The Blindman
Thanks, Bill D. Now, come on Bree. Argue with me about thought being more than language... and how it's also present in music, artwork, dance and cooking. ;-)
I don't speak any native languages, so I don't know how well certain words or spiritual concepts important to a culture can be translated into English. Obviously the Mind of people is not doomed to death if their language should die out, but I think all efforts should be made by a people to save their native tongue. Just because someone tells you that something can't be done, that you are too small and they are too big - is no reason to give up.
Music is powerful. It also shows respect.
I remember when there was a German foreign exchange student in our town. She couldn't go home for Christmas and spent it with us and at our candlelight Christmas eve service. That night we all learned how to sing Stille Nacht. The rest of the Christmas Carols were in English, but for one very short glorious moment, the whole church realized that they could make a difference for one young 17 year old girl. There wasn't a dry eye in the house as they watched her face and tears as we all showed that her culture mattered at a time so important as Christmas.
None of us were offended, but rather moved by incorporating something in our ceremony to honor another. But then, that was a Norwegian church...and you know how they are...
BF we are already headed in that direction. The language that I grew up around in the late fifties and early sixties is almost unrecognizable today. Just like a lot of speech it has been slanged. One night when I drove my old friend Blaine Little Thunder who is now in his late eighties, home from the Norris Pool Hall I asked him about it and he said . "Its street talk now, we didn't use to talk like that."
If the language is to be saved it will only be done through the music, not through a mandated learning program. The songs written so long ago are still the same language in its purest form.
The culture will live on through the art work for a lot longer period of time. Like the cave paintings and the petroglyphs, time will cease to move and the stories will tell themselves. If you have walked through the schools on the reservations you know what I mean. Crazy Horse School has some of the finest wall mural's that have ever been painted. They don't need any explanations, they tell their own stories.
Dance as an art form has also changed. Not the steps, but the people on the outside of the circle. Part of it is the language, but there is that other thing. It is more competitive then it was back then. That's what big money will do to a culture. Believe it or not when I was between the age of four and twelve I went to at least one PowWow a year, and I danced with my friends. In some ways we have moved forward from that time, and in some ways we have moved back.
I live down Hey Creek and up Pass Creek from where the Sun Dance was held for years. We could hear the drums when the wind was right. That was at Selo Black Crow's and it was almost five miles away as the crow flies. The end of that dance in that place came quickly with the proliferation of hard drugs and booze. They never used to be a problem fifty years ago. At that time it was about spiritualism and friends, not getting high. The same thing has killed a lot of other cultures.
I don't get around much anymore, but at one time I could have shown you these things along with many others. Bree I'm not the person that you seem to think I am. Sure we have different opinions on things but if we were to meet I'm sure we could find some common ground. Who knows I might even learn something.
The Blindman
Well, Silent Night started off in German.
http://german.about.com/od/christmas/a/StilleNacht.htm
Anybody know any good music that started off in Lakota or Dakota that has been translated to English?
I am almost certain Native American languages in South Dakota must have some concepts in single words or phrases that don't exist in English similar to Schadenfreude in German. Native Americans who wish to save anything of their language should do their best to get any such terms into English dictionaries. But that would be work and not pay well at all.
I have probably written this before here and elsewhere, but years ago, a Native American woman worked for SDPB-TV. She was good at what she did but I cannot remember her name. Anyway, she was interviewing three older Native American women who were writers and influential. That was when it was easy to call in and ask questions. After they had gone on for about 30 minutes talking generally about the wonders of native culture without ever mentioning anything remotely approaching specificity, I asked, "Would any of the discussion participants please list several specific parts of their culture they actually viewed as good?" There was dead silence for what seemed like two minutes, but probably wasn't. Finally one of them said, "The way we USED TO take care of our children." That was all they came up with. I am asking the question again. What specifically is their in SD Native American culture worth saving or adopting."?
Since they are legally sovereign nations, their culture is their own business and not yours Douglas Wiken. Hateful racist insane Marxists like you don't get to dictate to another nation what's worthwhile in their own culture.
And America started out as Native American...you walked into that one Doug.
But, the point is that who was hurt by breaking tradition to sing Stille Nacht and who would be hurt by the performance of the Lakota Honor Song?
More importantly, what is so bad about honoring a culture other than our own if it has a deep meaning to the people it is intended for?
That was the point of the Stille Nacht story and a young high schooler as a minority in a foreign country. People did the right thing, for the right reasons.
Here's a link to a cliff notes type summary of pain/atrocities we as a state and a country inflicted upon people...you know...human beings. Great-great grandparents, great grandparents, grandparents, parents, wives, husbands, sons and daughters.
http://www.enotes.com/native-americans-reference/native-americans
South Dakota was their land until it was forcibly and fraudulently, through broken treaties, taken away from them. They have lived for generations through the hell we created. We pay lip service to reconciliation and justice...but many still think of them as the enemy.
So how would anyone be hurt by playing the Lakota Honor Song? Help me see your point of view within the context of history and current societal prejudice.
Or America could honor her treaties in accordance with the law and we could all quit with the hippie apologism nonsense that accomplishes absolutely nothing. What is the point of America castigating herself for the past and nations hating each other? Maybe I should cut off my arm because of what some of my ancestors have done to the other. We can't rewrite the past but we can make real amends instead of spouting empty words. An honorable nation keeps its word. America in good faith must follow its own laws and with fair-mindedness settle these claims.
There are still people on the Pine Ridge, Rosebud, Standing Rock and Cheyenne Reservations who honor their ancient traditions. (Perhaps the other SD reservations, I simply don't know.) For example: They hold elders in high respect, remaining silent and keeping gaze down as she speaks. They greet Grandfather at every morning sunrise, use the language, care for those in need, etc.
Generalizations about a particular large demographic always contain many inaccuracies.
Pomp and Circumstance started out as British...you know the tyrants and oppressors that inspired the TEA Party.
The history of Pomp and Circumstance is also based on the glorification of war...not honoring academic achievement. Oh yeah...here are the words and meaning that Pomp and Circumstance are set to:
Like a proud music that draws men on to die
Madly upon the spears in martial ecstasy,
A measure that sets heaven in all their veins
And iron in their hands.
I hear the Nation march
Beneath her ensign as an eagle's wing;
O'er shield and sheeted targe
The banners of my faith most gaily swing;
Moving to victory with solemn noise,
With worship and with conquest, and the voice of myriads.
Although that doesn't seem to bother anyone since...well you know...no one has ever questioned it's origins for what ever reason. Although it likely isn't because we were worried about what country it came from or the meaning.
What is the meaning and thoughts behind the Lakota Honor song?
Regretfully, I don't know.
Maybe our friend Bill Dithmer, or someone else, can make us smarter about the song and meaning.
Then we can choose which has a more relevant meaning besides "it's got a good beat and I can dance to it" homage to American Bandstand.
Bree...hippie apologism? I certainly wouldn't say that to politicians catering to Israel in talking about forgetting genocide. See the double standard anywhere?
Heck, the Native Americans and the Jewish people have this much in common. After they lived through cultural genocide, they were given land.
The people of Israel were given the land of their origins...which as the Hebrew comedian said...God? Why did you give us the only land in the Middle East that had no oil?
The Native Americans weren't so lucky...they didn't get their land of religious importance.
I think the conversation went something like this in the treaty talks.
US: The Black Hills? You don't want that real estate...all those trees and beauty? You're obviously not looking ahead to the Pine Beetle problem. Heck, we've got some good land. It doesn't look like much...but it's got potential in the right hands. A little irrigation, landscaping and it will look just like barren, god forsaken prairie.
NA: But the Pahá Sápa has great cultural and religious meaning to us.
US: Sorry, we don't know how to spell that and we have more guns...so enjoy the walk to your new hell...ooops, we mean fixer up land.
Really, you'll love the wide open spaces and total isolation. But don't worry, we'll bring you forced schooling, teachers and religion to make you forget about everything...trust us. Hey, we'll even throw in a couple of diseases, cheap whiskey, bigotry and even promise to break some treaties for any inconvenience we may have caused.
Sorry Jana I dont know a darn thing about Pomp and Circumstance. Never cared for the song in the first place.
The Blindman
Sorry Bill. I was hoping you or someone else could give us the meaning behind the Lakota Honor Song...looking at my post, I could have been clearer.
Yes, let's spout a bunch of banal sympathetic pleasantries while doing nothing. Do you think I'm going to shut up because you bring up unpleasant topics? So typical for a liberal to deflect and make a few empty expressions of outrage. You feel terrible for the American Indian - as long as it costs you nothing. I notice you don't say we should honor our treaties with them. I guess you forgot in the midst of all those crocodile tears.
Jana is Bree talking to me or you"
The BLindman
Jana I've listened to four Honoring songs tonight on the net, each one different. After a ph call it seems that there are in fact many Honoring songs that honor different things. I will know more in the morning.
The Blindman
That was aimed at Jana, Dithmer.
(Jessie: as far as I know, I have no Lakota blood in me. All muttly Euro.)
One does not need to be Native American to honor our elders. The Sioux moved into this area from further east. They slaughtered the tribes that were here already. It isn't like they were here for a few thousand years.
In any case, it is a defunct nomad culture locked in stone age mythology and it is mostly nonsense in this age.
Once again, your personal opinion on the value of their culture is irrelevent - BECAUSE THEY ARE SOVEREIGN NATIONS.
Bree, could you enlighten me, sans name calling and stereotypical generalizations? Why are you so angry about this, and so demeaning to liberals?
Your hypocrisy is flabbergasting Deb. I carefully examined all of my comments in this thread and the only evidence I can find of anything resembling name calling on my part was when I called Wiken a racist, and Dithmer a pretender. I stand by those accurate descriptions. Douglas Wiken has a clearly demonstrated himself to be a racist, and the same goes for Bill Dithmer being a pretender. It's interesting that after all of the absolutely horrid shocking comments made about native culture in this thread the only thing you manage to come away with is that I have been "demeaning to liberals." Your attempt to set up the poor wittle liberals in this thread as somehow a victim of myself is disgusting. Go back and read Wiken's and Dithmer's horrible comments and you may understand what I find despicable in their viewpoints.
Chamberlain is not in a "sovereign nation". The sovereignty is an illusion. The tribes in SD are nearly totally dependent upon federal and state largesse. What is the gross national product of these "sovereign nations?
Some of the tribal governments are progressive and honest, others are like the big city mobs of the US in the 1800's. If you want to actually hear real racism, get a Native American from outside South Dakota discussing the South Dakota tribes...maybe it isn't racism but just tribalism however. Take your pick.
The professionals of tribalism are not doing most Native Americans a bit of good. They get some publicity and maybe even a chance to line their own pockets. The mythology is destructive however.
The adoration of an idyllic native Garden of Eden makes no more sense than idealizing gun-toting cowboys, rustlers and murderers. Those days are gone forever no matter what some may wish.
I never stated that Chamberlain was a sovereign nation. I said the Indian tribal lands are sovereign nations, along with any settlements they may be due from the federal government. Sovereignty is not an illusion - it clearly states in the Constitution that the tribes are "foreign nations" and that treaties are the law of the land. A country must follow its own laws, or it is without merit. Your opinions on the value of these nations are ONCE AGAIN COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT because they are SOVEREIGN NATIONS and you don't get to rip up and throw away our Constitution.
It's interesting Bree that after all of our exchanges here you have come away with, "Bill Dithmer being a pretender," as something that set you off.
What exactly am I pretending to do? Being the person that I am?
What could I possibly accomplish by pretending to be something that I'm not? What would I have to gain by doing so?
Would that be money? I've had that several times in my life but for me it is a very poor way to measure success.
Respect? If that was the case I'm sure going about it in a bad way. When you have people throwing verbal stones from both directions that would be a tough sell.
Political gain? A fat, blind, liberal with conservative leanings in a GOP state like South Dakota isn't likely. Just my views on racism "of any kind" and women's rights, would preclude me from office in this state. Add to that my inability to put a coherent thought together and. Well you see where I'm at. It aint pretty but it's me.
Gratitude? Reread what was written about respect.
Power? Reread what was written about political gain.
Now lets look at this "Dithmer's horrible comments" What would those horrible comments be? Copy and paste those comments and remember that those punctuation marks at the end mean something. If you see a ? it means that is a question. If you see a . that means it is in fact a statement of some kind.
I've tried to be nice talking to you yet you seem to have nothing but hatred for me. I'm here to exchange ideas and different opinions nothing more. Well that's not exactly right either I like to have some verbal fun once in a while.
You have a hair trigger girl. If you want to run with the big dogs you have to learn to get along under the tree. If you were one of my coon dogs I'd sell ya for fighting.
The Blindman
Blindman is an appropriate name for you because you see nothing.
Huh, what, oh ya "I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya, that a woman that is supposed to be so in tune with the feelings of those that she thinks have no control over their future would resort to talking down about the disability of another human being. NOT.
Bree if you want to insult me you just have to do better then that, I've heard em all in my lifetime and you don't even rate on my insult meter.
One more thing. If you could see the grin on my face right now it would surely piss you off. Thanks for showing your true colors.
My work here is through.
The Blindman
I'm sorry you wouldn't answer my question Bree. I didn't ask you about the others you mentioned. I asked you about you. I'm familiar with Doug and the Blind man and others from following other blogs. I don't know you, and you've demonstrated very passionate feelings about this topic. That made me curious about why. So I asked you directly. You responded by describing me as a hypocrite. You offered no response to my question. You attacked me and other commenters. I wish you would lower your defenses and dial back your anger you might be able to help us understand what you want us to know. This is not about other commenters. It's about you.
Just have to mention the world's most unsuccessful salesman. Ole pushing a pushcart across the western plains yelling, "Lutefisk, Lutefisk".
What is Lakota for "Lutefisk", because that is what they are selling.
Deb you said this:
"Why are you so angry about this, and so demeaning to liberals?"
And I said this:
"Go back and read Wiken's and Dithmer's horrible comments and you may understand what I find despicable in their viewpoints."
And also I said this:
"It's interesting that after all of the absolutely horrid shocking comments made about native culture in this thread the only thing you manage to come away with is that I have been 'demeaning to liberals.'"
Clearly, I took the time to answer your question and you didn't like the answer I gave you. You just stated:
"I'm sorry you wouldn't answer my question Bree."
That statement is clearly a lie, and you are a hypocritic. Your attempts at spin and redirection are amateurish at best. Since you are apparently incapable of reading Wiken's and Dithmer's comments to see what I am angry about I will repost some of their statements.
Statements by Douglas Wiken in this thread:
"I have yet to hear from any apologists of stone-age culture of the actual wonders of such flawed culture that have any relevance whatsoever to the needs and aspirations of current students.."
"The humbug about a special honor song and resistance is just another good excuse for failure by Native Americans. Many of them want to do good work and improve their and their families lot, but far too many are looking for excuses to justify failure."
"Native Americans who wish to save anything of their language should do their best to get any such terms into English dictionaries. But that would be work and not pay well at all."
"What specifically is their in SD Native American culture worth saving or adopting."?"
"In any case, it is a defunct nomad culture locked in stone age mythology and it is mostly nonsense in this age."
Statements by Bill Dithmer in this thread:
"Bravo DW Bravo That"s the only way it will work for everyone. Total exclusion or total inclusion, it should be all or nothing."
"On the one side are some people that would very much like to be living back in the forties or fifties of the last century. On the other side are a few that would like to go clear back to the seventeen and eighteen hundreds.
Fortunately there are a lot of clear headed people that live on either side of the fence that understand the year is now 2013 not either of the above. We cant go back, we can only go forward. That's not just life but reality. Nuff Said"
"The treaties that you speak of were broken by both parties and yet? At what point do we consider a treaty irrelevant? Would that be when the percentage of native blood can no longer be measured because the Europeans whose blood also flows through their veins is just to strong? Or would that be when the last person has an Indian thought?"
And it's that last statement I find the most upsetting, even more so than Wiken's amazing comments - because Dithmer states that the end of a way of life and thinking for a people is inevitable. And I know that the Spirit I follow will not allow such destruction of the Mind of a great people whose thoughts add great spiritual value to the universe, and help to keep the waters of the world clean. The fact that Dithmer can even write those words explain why I hardly ever read his posts - because there is little truth to be found in his thoughts.
I called you a hypocrite because you clearly are a hypocrite, Deb Geelsdottir. I speak the truth as I see it without deference to imagined offense. I have not been "demeaning to liberals" as you state - I have said only the truth and will continue to speak only the truth in response to hypocrisy and circuitous lies.
By the way, Deb Geelsdottir, if you are waiting for me to "lower my defenses" you will be waiting a very long time.
Oh, and if you want to know who I am - I suggest you ask Bill Fleming and Troy Jones.
Okay Bree. I give up. I guess we're not going to have a civil conversation. Your choice.
Okay Bree. I give up. I guess we're not going to have a civil conversation. Your choice. I asked you about your passion, not Bill or Troy. I don't understand, but I guess I have to join the Blindman.
Boy, I leave you kids alone for a minute, and this kind of fight breaks out? Let's take a break and sleep on it. Bill, park that B-word. Before we have any chance of reviving Mickelson's reconciliation effort, we're going to need to get along better here in our own sweat lodge.
And yet you let her say things about me that you know are not true? Thanks Cory
The Blindman
Bill has a good point Cory.
(You can call out untruth in countless ways that won't draw my intervention. Most of the post I deleted did that. But the B-word shows we're getting away from a productive discussion.)
So Bree, what is racist about my observations? What is not factual? What of them is not based on reality?
In any case, try answering the questions. Still haven't heard anything about the gross national product of these "sovereign nations?.
It is always easier to dismiss tough questions by labeling them as inappropriate rather than actually making sensible responses.
You said that their culture is "flawed" and not relevant. That is a value statement that implies your culture is better. You said the reasonable request to have their Honor Song played at the graduation ceremony was an "excuse for failure." I find that statement entirely incoherent, but once again it implies superiority on your part. You again state that "they" are looking for "excuses for failure" rather than "want[ing] to do good work" which suggests you think they're lazy. While there are lazy people all over the world in all cultures, in combination with your other statements - it once again implies superiority on your part. You state in order to save any words from their language those words need to be printed in an English dictionary - which besides being arrogant suggests that their oral tradition isn't as good as our written tradition. Your statement "but that would be work and not pay well" clears up for us the question of whether or not you think they are lazy. You ask what is worth saving in their culture - which shows that you don't think their culture has any value. You then call their culture "defunct" and "nonsense" which are once again value statements.
OK, Bree, for the sake of argument, assume you are correct in your assertions about my perspective. Demonstrate by facts that your assumption that their so-called values are superior to the interests of the 70% majority in Chamberlain. And, again, what is the gross national product of these "sovereign nations"? And, I realize that considering a positive GNP versus a negative GNP also values one more than the other.
What is the value of an oral tradition without a written language or other written language to record it..or for that matter with the evil white eyes electronic recording technology? Do you have a Lakota dictionary? If you do, who wrote and published it?
A culture based primarily on conditions that no longer exist or environments that no longer exist is fundamentally defective or irrelevant no matter how you spin values or non-values.
Why is their request for a special privilege, implying their interests are superior to say "Pomp and Circumstance" a "reasonable request"?
We view all other cultures in terms of comparison with our own. Apparently you view so-called "white culture" defective in comparison to Native American culture. Perhaps you can explain the basis for your values assumption.
I ask what is worth saving (or superior to "white culture") in their culture because I want to know. I have yet to get a single bit of evidence of any such thing which is very disappointing and depressing to me considering how many blanket assertions are made.
Your attempts at intellectual superiority have no bearing on the law of the land - which is the Constitution. The Constitution clearly states that the tribes are foreign nations, and that the treaties our government engages in are law. Your opinion on their culture, values ("so-called" was the adjective you used), economy or any other topics you may choose to denigrate in the future are ENTIRELY IRRELEVENT to the argument. In fact, you would make a terrible lawyer and would quickly end up in contempt of court for your pointless sideshow. Nothing, absolutely nothing, you bring up has anything to do with the LAW OF THE LAND.
Bill, you can keep me and my weiner out of this. I know well enough not to touch indian issues b/c I've lived on 2 reservations and I have some of the best/worst opinions out there on native Americans. I can tell you one thing, the offspring are nothing like their elders and I'm sure you've experienced something similar being on the reservation. However, it looks like you could win the measuring contest against Bree, assuming she is a female. :)
Bree I'm sorry I called you a female dog. I think we can get past that if you in turn stop calling me names.
Now lets get to the real important things. You seem to set great store in the complete implementation of the treaties signed more then a hundred years ago. That's fine with me, but there are a few questions that need to be answered before that could ever happen.
First, how do we deal with Indian allotments? They are those special pieces of ground that that were divided up for the individual Indians to do with as they wished. Remember that some of these pieces of ground now have hundreds of decendents. Who gets what?
Now how about those allotments that were sold to non natives? Remember those contracts were completely legal. That is the way that this ranch was created.
How are you going to deal with trust ground? More special property that the government holds in trust that cant be taxed by the county, state, or the federal government. Are you willing to just say lets just go ahead and divide that land up between everyone? That sounds good unless you are an Indian setting on trust ground.
How about the people that live in the towns on the old reservation? Do they still own their houses, land, businesses, health care facilities? Remember you want to go back to the agreement that was signed when the treaties were made. Stanford Lab would be a thing of the past. I doubt that they would just walk away without a fight, do you?
There were no roads back then. Life would be tough without an interstate road system, a state road system, or a county. No forget it there wouldn't be any counties so that isn't important. What would be important to know is no roads.
And then there is the REA, That wasn't a part of the original agreement. A phone system, nope that wasn't there either. Public housing in its present form? No. Rural water? Only in your dreams without any of the above.
The tribes want the Black Hill's back. That's fine with me if they can talk those that live there into leaving without just compensation. Do you really see that happening?
Now lets talk about who would run the nations if these things were to actually happen. Would that be the same people that run them now? Or would that be a newly elected more corrupt bunch? Either way eventually it would be toughest one rules. Lets face it the days of Crazy Horse and Red Cloud are long gone. Those men were fair and just with their people, you wont find that today.
If they can get by all of those things it would be one hell of a job of nation building. That is what you want isnt it? A self supporting nation.
Now I'm going to make a bet with you. I bet that you cant find ten natives that are willing to live for a year without electricity, having to haul water without gas engines, chopping wood, a phone, or anyone that has those things helping them get by. If you can and can document what you say I will give you my ranch. If not you have to walk down Rapid Cities main street at noon on the first of April in two years naked singing Oh what a beautiful morning.
I can already tell you, nobody wants to go back to those days.
Now I'm putting up one of the best ranches in the country, that would be free to you to use as you choose. Give it to an Indian family, give it to the tribe, or use it yourself. although that would be hypocritical don't you think?
Its time to put up or shut up Bree, which is it going to be?
The Blindman
Bill,
Like you I enjoy sitting on Madville's Main Street and conversing. I can't talk gardening as well as you can; I don't have an affinity for herbs, but I enjoy sipping a Diet Mt. Dew and reading what loquacious folks like you have to say.
On this bet thing, I think you are setting up a bit of a false premise. If Native Americans were suddenly to truly be able to set up their own nation, I doubt the REA lines, the roads, and cell towers would be removed.
It might be more like the break up of the USSR. Estonia left to become it's own country after decades and the Russians didn't come in and tear up the improvements they put in. The same holds true for the country of Georgia.
I spent the first 18 years of my life lugging water from a well to the house. My legs used to bleed in the winter because I spilled water on the back of my leg at 20 below and the water froze my pants and long johns to my leg. I'm pretty sure you won't find 10 people to take up your conditions, but if you're going to make a bet like that it seems like it should be based on the right premise.
So, have we accepted the knowledge of the law - that the tribes are sovereign nations - and moved on to attempting to prove such freedom is impossible? The people of each tribal nation should decide for themselves what they want to do about these issues. They should decide how they wish to govern themselves, as well as the status of their relationship with America.
I am not going to write a fiction novel describing in minute detail what I think each tribal nation should do in regard to policy, diplomacy, infrastructure, government structure.. etc. etc. ..because I don't have an opinion regarding these issues and also it goes against my personal beliefs to stick my nose in another nation's business.
"If Native Americans were suddenly to truly be able to set up their own nation, I doubt the REA lines, the roads, and cell towers would be removed."
Well of course not. But who would pay for the maintenance of those things when the companies that are there now no longer receive money for doing that? Would we be right back to where we are?
Would the US be willing to take on the responsibility of maintaining those things? After all that wasn't a part of the original treaties. Like it or not We, US cant keep the road systems going that we have now. How long do you think the rest of the country would put up with maintenance in the new nations within the US while the rest of the country falls apart?
Do you really think that the power companies would give free power to the new native rural electric coop? How about ph service same holds true for that. Here the tribes are supposed to own the water that flows in the rivers so if they could just keep the pumps running and in good repair that wouldn't be a problem but that to takes money.
Nothing is free anymore and maybe the tribes should be given what was originally promised. I just don't see how that would help them. There are just so many unanswered questions about how it would work. Who gets to stay, who has to go? Who gets to make that decision? I have a hundred year stake in that decision so nobody can say I don't have a dog in the fight.
It absolutely looks like the tribes will end up exactly like they are now being wards of the state. If someone can show me how it could be otherwise I would sure be glad to listen.
And yes I know the bet was loaded. I made that bet to make a point. The total futility of the situation would be hard to overcome.
The Blindman
"tribes are sovereign nations" Nope. In name only not in actions.
The Blindman
Kal LIs the true leaders of the nations are asking themselves and each other the same questions that I have been asking here. And like me they dont have any answers either. Add to this the total mistrust of the members for each other and it makes the answers harder to find and the rules to live by that would make everyone happy. Lets face it if you dont know the rules it isnt any fun to play the game.
The Blindman