Religion alert—Rep. Hickey got me in the Jesus swing!
Sioux Falls author Dianna Anderson published this August 29 blog post before Victoria Osteen confessed her secular hedonism dressed up as Christianity. But Anderson's critique of American evangelical Christianity's claim to subversive minority status seems relevant to Osteen's prosperity gospel and other robed delusions:
...[B]elieving in American evangelical Christianity is one of the least subversive things that exists. And that’s because American evangelical Christianity exists to maintain a status quo of current power structures....
We’ve been fed this falsehood about what subversion is in American evangelicalism. We worship a Christ in our own image – a European, cisgender, heterosexual Christ who is more interested in making sure you don’t have to provide your employees with birth control than with whether or not you just made someone homeless by firing them because they’re gay [Dianna Anderson, "Queering Theology: Subversion and Grace," blog, 2014.08.29].
As a Midwestern atheist, I have regularly chortled at the persecution complex feigned by certain Christians. Anderson contends that persecution complex is a survival strategy... or maybe just marketing:
...[W]ithout thinking they are in the minority, American evangelicalism would not have nearly the fervor and tribalism they exhibit now [Anderson, 2014.08.29].
Dang, if that's the effect perceiving oneself as an endangered, countercultural minority has, where's all the fervor and tribalism among my fellow South Dakota Democrats?
Oh no! SibCity Sirens are sounding.
Okay Madville types, let's all admit that we're apostates and skip that part of the conversation.
And recognize that like "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," "Christianity is defined by the beholder." Meaning, that whether we are Christian or not, is defined by us as the beholders.
Glad to see you in the Jesus swing! If we focus on him the world would be a better place.
The Rapture can't happen soon enough.
THE CHURCH OF BILL BIBLE
At first, There was the boss of all bosses. He was bored because he didnt have any toys so he started creating the world.
He did the whole shebang in six days. Days were a lot longer back then.
He wanted someone that looked like him so he made a man named Adam. When Adam got bored God made Lilith, a bitchy snaggled toothed vampire that tried to suck the life out of Adam.
It didnt take long and God and Adam agreed that Lilith had to go. There wasn't any divorce court back then so instead of Lilith getting 50% of everything, she just up and disappeared. So ends the story of Lilith.
Adam was again bored and complained to God. So one night while Adam was in a cannabis induced sleep, God ripped one of Adams ribs out of his body and created another woman, Eve.
Eve was easy on the eyes but had some psychological problems that showed up a few years later. She was a little slutty, and talked to much.
She started having a relationship with a snake. The two of them spent hours talking about how great it would be if they would just pick an apple from the tree of life put it in a nice fruit salad and live forever. God had listening devices all over so he knew what Eve was up to.
He told Adam, Adam confronted Eve, and she talked him into sharing the salad with her. Adam wasn't blessed with a high IQ and was easily manipulated. And besides sex was just atarting to be fun. Remember there wasn't any Nascar on tv yet.
God kicked both of them out of their perfect home because they had eaten the forbidden fruit salad. Adam and Eve then started down the long road of life, Adam having to listen to Eve's bitching, and Eve, between pregnancies, was blessed with perpetual PMS.
Adam and Eve had kids and led an incestuous lifestyle, the population of the world grew.
Things went along for a while, more people and animals. But all the time the damn snake kept causing trouble. Add to that the inbred genetic code and it was time for a change.
God decided enough was enough. He had screwed up so bad the first time the only thing to do was wipe the slate clean and start over. So he decided to have a flood.
He didnt want to go through all the work of designing people and all the animals again so he just picked one mans family to stand the test of time, Noah.
Now Noah was in pretty good shape for being 800 years old so God asked him to build a boat that would hold a male and female of every animal in the world. He was also to take his and his extended family on the new cruise ship.
Side note, personal perspective, if god knew about genetic codes, why did he force everyone from then on to be the result of incest?
God flooded the world. It was like a cow elephant pissing on a flat rock for 40 days, and 40 nights. Those that didnt get the written invite drowned. Those that did survived to breed and over populate the world as we know it.
So ends the ancient history in the bible dropped in the outbox at THE CHURCH OF BILL.
More in a few days.
The Blindman PS yes I'm an apostste, I think, maybe.
Meanwhile,on the other side of the world, irate Muslims are saying that if they just focus on Allah,the world would be a better place.
We all should have compassion for those individuals who live in such fear that they can only try to find comfort in a magical uber-world. We need to help them understand what benefits this world offers them and what joy they could experience by joining their fellow human beings rather than isolating themselves out of fear. If they could experience the pleasure of seeing the joy in another's face without judgment or condemnation, think of the freedom they might experience. That is the evangelism that could benefit us all.
My optimism might seem naive, but some scholars seem to be making progress:
http://www.salon.com/2014/09/01/5_reasons_to_suspect_that_jesus_never_existed/?source=newsletter
"but some scholars seem to be making progress"
BCB, did you notice the salon link said the work of the atheist contains "known errors"?
Sibby, I did see that comment and thought that recognizing such errors gave the entire article more credibility. I enjoyed reviewing the arguments on both sides and I hope you did too!
"But Anderson's critique of American evangelical Christianity's claim to subversive minority status seems relevant to Osteen's prosperity gospel and other robed delusions"
Cory, Osteen is part of the Mega Church movement, which means that his heresy is the majority view among those who call themselves evangelical Christians. It is not an example of what Anderson is critical of. Anderson would be welcomed at Lakewood's church of secular hedonism.
I would gather a guess and say that most of those on this web site would say that my viewpoint is a minority view.
You need to rethink this post Cory.
@Beschizza · 7m
Victims, ranked
3. Women receiving death threats
2. Misogynist manbabies
1. Nice guys with valid critiques who hate to be lumped in with 2.
Don't worry, little Stevie. We'll make sure you're always the most ridiculed minority in South Dakota, because we all know you just wouldn't be happy having it any other way.
Besides, how could there possibly be any minority smaller than a minority of 1/2? (I say "1/2" because you spend at least half of your time here arguing with yourself.)
http://www.politicususa.com/2014/09/02/rapture-enthusiasts-fantasize-post-rapture-america-ruled-atheists.html
Yup. Kurtz nails it.
Interesting link larry. The discussion of Revelation and the absence of any language mentioning a "rapture" seems to support Deb's earlier argument that Revelation was merely written in code to protest Roman repression. What seems more curious, however, is the proposition that Christians were no more persecuted way back then by the Romans than they are being persecuted today.
And Bill, I read Beyond Religion last weekend and was quite impressed. It is a book I will encourage my children and grandchildren to read. I was surprised that the Dalai Lama points fit so squarely in my own existentialist worldview.
Awww shucks, fellers: you made me dribble a little in my pants.
Ha ha! Great, BCB. I've been saying for quite sometime that you and Cory might be surprised to learn that you are actually "closet buddhists." I know I was!
Larry, hey, it happens, especially at our age.
You're incontinent,not because you are physically here,but because you covet being on this continent. It is a Sibby type disease. Once it starts,it is hard to stop it.
Bill, I can't quite go that far since I have my doubts about karma, which seems to be a requisite of Buddhism. And the Dalai Lama claimed to be writing for all people, including existentialist atheists. His ethics construct, however, does not depend on karma nor any other reward or punishment, thus fitting my personal outlook quite well.
"closet buddhists"
In other words "New Agers".
And you should understand that atheists cannot be spiritual, even though they make themselves into gods by rejecting the supernatural.
And thanks Bill for backing up my argument in typical left-wing hate speech.
you must have missed this, sib:
http://thecrookedmouth.com/a-brief-guide-to-donuts/
LOL. Christians are actually the "New Agers" when it comes to Buddhism, Sibby. Nice try though.
What BCB is talking about is a core philosophy/worldview that is present in most, if not all religions. He uses a metaphor of water and tea. The water is the essential ingredient, and the tea (various religious dogmas) give the water a unique, distinct flavor.
And finally, Sibby, you understand that there is a distinct difference between "spirituality" and "religion" don't you? (Wait... what am I thinking? ...of course you don't. That's your problem.)
"Wait... what am I thinking?"
So it is you that argues with yourself.
All the time, Sibby. That's what thinking is. You should try it sometime.
So Bill, when you do it, it is thinking, when I do it, is arguing with myself. Time to end the conversation.
Your problem isn't the internal argument, Steve it's that the wrong Sibby usually wins.
Larry, that link was outstanding.
The knowledge that rapture is a purely human construct is not limited to a few outliers. It's just that the people who accept the full Biblical writings in their historical context are rarely the noisy ones that news outlets get juicy quotes from.
Christian persecution was mostly limited to the first 2-3 centuries of the last millennium. Once Constantine adopted it as the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity became the most powerful religion of Europe and large swaths of Asia and Africa.
Since then Christianity has been deformed into a cruel and bloodthirsty power focused faithlessness. It's almost unrecognizable as it is practiced by right wingers in the US.
BTW, I don't think those"victim christians" are a majority of Christians. They're just the loudest. I wouldn't put Hickey in that group. Steve, it's just that you are wrong about several things.
Did I also say that Ms. Anderson's blog post is really wonderful? Yeah, it is.
Blindman, your story is a lot of fun. But - much of the information is in error. I don't blame you. You have been reading erroneous translations. It's really hard to find to find accurate translations. Those ancient languages, spoken and written, are very different from what they are today.
Here's the deal:
The first human being was both female and male according to the language used. Female and male did not exist until there were two complementary genders.
If you accept the mistranslation that male was first, then you must also accept that God told the male not to eat the fruit, not the woman. The snake told the woman. She should believe the snake?! Also, read what the woman does with the fruit. She offers it to the man because it tastes good. She didn't talk the poor, ignorant, gullible man into anything. ("Ignorant and gullible" is the only characterization left for the male if he so easily disregarded God's admonishment about not eating the fruit.)
It takes a great deal of selective reading to uphold the story of the creation as that of the wonderful male and the conniving, mean woman. Most of all, remember that the Creation Story is a very ancient legend come to us via the story telling of thousands of patriarchal generations. It's value is in meaning, not historical veracity.
This is where you'll find the human part of this vivid and colorful legend: Genesis 1.26-31. The second Creation Myth (Yes, there is more than one.) is at Genesis 2.1-7, 15-23. The part about the snake, the apple, and the man's fecklessness is in chapter 3.1-end. Pay attention to words actually there, rather than what you've been told.
Deb, i'm just another stupid man living on an enchanted planet.
Sibby says:
" Osteen is part of the Mega Church movement, which means that his heresy is the majority view among those who call themselves evangelical Christians."
This is ignorance and more false assumptions from the self appointed arbiter of all that is true . The average evangelical church in America has 80 members. Most of the mega churches aren't prosperity gospel oriented.
Hickey is right on both counts. Nearly every small town has a mainline Protestant church and an evangelical church. Both are quite small and pastored by leaders trying to do the right and faithful thing.
Rev. Hickey: If megachurches see their size as a positive thing, a sign of the Lord's blessing, aren't they inherently at least dipping their toes in the prosperity-gospel worldview?
Cory, here is what is going on:
Drucker played a key role in the seeker-sensitive church movement.
That movement, under the name Church Growth, was started independently in the 1950’s by pastor Robert Schuler and seminary professor Donald McGavran. The Church Growth Movement focused on identifying sociological factors which attract people to (or repel them from) churches, and promoting the knowledge of these factors.
But in the 1980’s Drucker gave a profound boost to the movement by choosing Evangelical leaders Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and Bob Buford and mentoring them in the application of his management theories to church government. The seeker-sensitive pastors added Drucker’s marketing and organizational-management genius to the basic Church Growth game plan of using secular wisdom to increase the size of congregations.
A nominal Lutheran who openly admitted that he did not see himself as a Christian in any meaningful sense, Drucker was influenced far more by Søren Kierkegaard, Zen Buddhism, Confucianism and Martin Buber than by Holy Scripture.
http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/13/peter-druckers-key-role-in-the-corruption-of-evangelicalism/
Deb seems to have a lot in common with Drucker, who has adopted capitalism for the purposes of growing churches.
Here is more on the Church Growth heresy:
Schuller pioneered the adaptation of Church Growth Principles and societal contexualization from the foreign mission context of McGavren/C. Peter Wagner as taught at Fuller’s "School of World Mission." He adapted these growth principles to his own theology of self-esteem and fashioned a gospel presentation to lure southern Californians into his church. He then taught this model yearly at the Crystal Cathedral pastors' conferences. Among his most famous students were first Bill Hybels and then Rick Warren. Schuller's creation of the Church Growth model for America was clearly a theological departure from historic evangelical doctrine. He off-loaded the doctrine of sin in order to make room for a self-esteem gospel.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel20.html
Steve Hickey attended Fuller Theological Seminary and C. Peter Wagner wrote a glorifying forward in one of Hickey's books. That explains Hickey's bias and his attempts to hide the truth.
what truth, sib? artificial insemination using an intestine filled with divine semen?
everything is possible with dog.
Here;s Johnny Rivers take on that snake(lyrics)
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnyrivers/thesnake.html
I have a problem with very large churches. I don't think they are good for people.
My friend attends Calvary Lutheran out on Sheridan Lake Road. They just built there a few years ago. Calvary was a growing neighborhood church in Canyon Lake and membership tops 5000 now. I feel that when churches get so large relationships suffer and community fades. I'd rather see them start another church in different area.
My friend disagrees, and I may be wrong. Part of what I'm saying is also connected to my preference for smaller churches. Perhaps the big churches play an important role. I worry about them becoming too corporate, with the lead pastor serving more as a CEO.
ELCA is a large corporate church.