Of all the things I could be reading, Pastor Steve Hickey gets me to read the loathsome wingnut screed World Net Daily and cite it as reporting accurately and authoritatively on the most honest theological statement ever made by someone named Osteen:
Victoria Osteen, wife of megachurch minister Joel Osteen... addressing the church’s large congregation as her husband stood by nodding his head in agreement, said, “I just want to encourage everyone of us to realize when we obey God, we’re not doing it for God – I mean, that’s one way to look at it – we’re doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we’re happy.
“So I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you’re not doing it for God really. You’re doing it for yourself, because that’s what makes God happy. Amen?" ["Did Joel Osteen's Wife Commit Blasphemy?" WND.com, 2014.08.30]
I call Mrs. Osteen's statement "honest" because it reveals what her and her husband's prosperity gospel is really about... and it reveals how thoroughly un-Christian that gospel is. WND.com gets a pastor to explain how Mrs. Osteen is putting pious lipstick on a secular hedonist pig; I prefer the response of our own Shad Olson:
The American pursuit of happiness and seeking first the Kindgom of God have nothing to do with one another. The Osteen's prosperity gospel and most of the megachurch sludge that presages it are apostate heresy. If only the early christian church had realized that God wanted them to have fake breasts and BMW"s....they would have been so much happier in their faith, what with all the nasty starvation and beheadings and crucifixions and what not [Shad Olson, Facebook comment, 2014.09.01].
Megachurch sludge—NewsCenter1 needs to let Shad use language like that on TV more often.
I don't do church. But even as I peek through the left-field knothole from my box in Atheist Alley, I can tell that Victoria Osteen is pitching something other than Christianity. Watch her say the words herself:
Such self-centeredness is necessary for the Osteens. Neither is an ordained (read: real) pastor. Neither has submitted to the vetting of a theological school. Neither has chosen to serve a denomination where congregations would call them; they instead establish a ministry around themselves and call the congregation to come to them. Victoria and Joel Osteen can justify calling themselves "pastors" only by convincing themselves that doing things for themselves rather than for others is fine by Jesus.
If you want an entirely self-centered worldview, secular hedonism comes with far fewer strings attached. But if you want to make money off your worldview, well, Victoria and Joel will tell you the same thing Chad and Annette will tell you: there's money to be made off Christian guilt.
It is beyond comprehension to me that anybody on this earth presumes to know what God thinks, IF there is a God!
Loved Bill Cosby at the end of the video.
Jeez would I like to slap that guy. Definitely on the bucket list.
Wow! Growing up Catholic it was like suffer, guilt, suffer, guilt. These Olsteens are on to something!
Do they have any franchises available for our area?
Osteen: Megachurch If Lipstick First.
Osteen is near-sighted from counting his money every night,over and over and over.Either that or his eyes are rioting from all the makeup he wears.
Some would admire the Osteens for their marketing ideas. I am not sure I understand how a "trained" pastor deserves any more credibility than those folks who are smart enough to convince needy people to send in their money. As for the untrained Osteens, they apparently offer something in their program that many people want and are willing to financially support.
While apparently earning mega-bucks for their efforts, the Osteens also have caged themselves in the same manner as other celebrities. They have given up the freedom to walk in and out of public places as simple anonymous people. They now have fortunes to protect and must be wary of people who would take their money. Their fame insures that they can trust no one to be a mere friend, as the Osteens are likely smart enough to recognize that they have become tickets to be used for others' gain, rather than friends.
Guilt, Christian or otherwise, can be debilitating and harmful. Self loathing results from guilt, and a common remedy is to isolate yourself by joining a group (perhaps a church?), and having that group tell you that you are better than other groups. As Sarah Silverman says, bed wetters need bed poopers to feel better about themselves. Thus bed wetters will pay good money to have someone identify all the bed poopers out there.
Good catch Cory. And from the WND column, we understand why Deb's gospel is not of the Bible:
“What’s the chief end of man? To bring glory to God and enjoy him forever,” said Camp, quoting from the Westminster Confession. “I think that’s the thing that’s been lost in our culture.
“The chief concern in this life is not us. The chief concern is that we bring glory to God, that we further His gospel, and that we testify of His grace. We’re here to do his bidding.”
Meanwhile, Joel Osteen himself raised eyebrows last year when he came out of the closet on the issue of homosexuality, saying God “absolutely” approves of everyone — including homosexuals.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/joel-osteens-wife-accused-of-blasphemous-remarks/#IwE3SSIqgiY4TIzg.99
The chief end of a man is his Johnson.
Roger - if (and I realize it's a substantial "if") one accepts that the Bible is what it claims to be - that is, God telling us what he thinks, then we can legitimately claim to know at least some of what he thinks.
bearcreekbat - the more formal route of seminary and call more thoroughly vets clergy by a wider cross-section of the church. It is not perfect - no human structure or method ever is. I remember a chapel talk given by one of those vetted clergy - Robert Schuller - at the Christian high school I attended. He said, among other things, that material prosperity was a direct reflection of our God's favor and thus righteousness. If you're rich, it's because you're righteous and God rewards you. Of course, that would mean, if you're poor, you're unrighteous and God wants to thwack you. I wasn't keen on Schuller before that talk. I had no use for him afterwards. His vaunted Crystal Cathedral became a financial liability as his children squandered their inheritance, declared bankruptcy, and was subsequently bought by the Diocese of Orange (county).
PNR that statement by Robert Schuller would be very disturbing.
PNR, it's substantial, alright.
It's also specious, at least to the modern, rational mind. The only way we "know" the Bible contains the "thoughts of God" is that the Bible itself says so. That kind of circular reasoning doesn't cut it rational, logical discussion, although it was once very popular in ancient art and literature, especially in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
In those days, if someone carved an image of a thing or wrote a story about it, it became the thing itself. These days, not so much.
...although when I went to DisneyWorld in Orlando and saw his house, the child in me was hard pressed not to believe that I'd actually visited the Home of Mickey Mouse. Actually, I still kind of believe it. ;-)
"The only way we "know" the Bible contains the "thoughts of God" is that the Bible itself says so."
So how do you explain the channeled books of Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, Carl Jung, and others?
PNR, I suppose Bob Schuller was somewhat like the Osteens in that he figured out how to make lots of money exploiting the need of others to find groups people to look down upon. I doubt that his formal training at seminary had much to do with that financial skill development. And on the ability of a seminary to vet clergymen, don't even get me started given the scandals of the Catholic Church.
In any event, perhaps the Schuller viewpoint about people deserving whatever happens in life helps some people feel better about seeing the pain and poverty suffered by others. Fox news and O'Reilly types appear to exploit immigrants and welfare recipients and dead black teenagers they label as thugs, for the same apparent purpose - to satisfy their viewers need to feel they are better and more deserving than others. And if Schuller was sincere, he probably sought in vain to feel better about himself.
BCB, perhaps you should do some research on Schuller instead of making assumptions. Your analysis is off.
BCB, here is a start to researching Schuller (note the reference to Osteen):
Given the definitions of “karma” above, this same idea, usually without the reincarnation aspect in Christian circles, has been taught for decades in New Thought movements such as the Positive Thinking/Positive Confession teachings of Norman Vincent Peale & Robert Schuller, the Word of Faith ideas of Essex Kenyan, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn, the mixture of Eastern Mysticism and Christianity by Korean false teachers such as the “force of faith” Paul Yongii Cho, and newer renditions and fusions by people like Joel Osteen, Joseph Prince, T.D. Jakes (recently agreeing with Oprah Winfrey who teaches karma on her WHO network), and others such as Ernest Angley, John Bevere, Markus Bishop, Juanita Bynum, Morris Cerullo, Kim Clement, Paul Crouch, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, Marilyn Hickey, Brian Houston, Rodney Howard-Browne, Larry Huch, Bishop Eddie L. Long, Clarence McClendon, Joyce Meyer, Myles Munroe, Steve Munsey, Mike Murdock, Rod Parsley, Peter Popoff, Fred Price, Oral Roberts, R.W. Shambach, Robert Schuller, Karl Strader, Robert Tilton, Paula White, Ed Young and many others.
The teachings of Positive Thinking/Positive Confession in the Word of Faith movement have been supported and fostered by unbiblical teachings such as the phrase “judge not lest you be judged”. This saying of Jesus, taken from Matt. 7:1, is yanked out of context and applied to everything in life in order to get people to not say anything negative. And yet a few verses later in the same message Jesus warns people to “watch out for false prophets”.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/karma.html
Good suggestion Sibby. I was relying on PNR's description of Schuller' comments. A little more research would have revealed that Schuller apparently contradicts your theology and based on this limited research I would go so far as to guess you would consider Schuller a false prophet.
http://letusreason.org/Poptea1.htm
"So how do you explain the channeled books of Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, Carl Jung, and others?"
I don't. What's to explain?
When I sit down and start writing something, lots of things come out. Ideas pop in from all over the place. Same when I start drawing. All sorts of things show up.
Now, if one of those things that showed up were the words "This is God talking, write this down" would that make them the "words of God?"
Or if a picture came out, and I told you, "this is God" would it it be?
That's YOUR argument, Sibby,
You answer it.
BCB, yes Schuller is just as phony as a$1,000 Bill (Fleming). Since you are interested in Revelation, here is some research on end times that exposes false prophets, including Schuller, the channeling of Alice Bailey, and Steve Hickey's theological buddy C. Peter Wagner (note that the research explains the Biblical version of end times that does include OT books, Matthew, and yes Revelation):
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=10544
god will smite the sibson residence first.
World Net Daily is just disgusting. I've looked at it different times. Ugh.
As a "trained pastor", I can describe my experience in God School, aka religious grad school, seminary, etc. Luther Seminary in St. Paul was a very rigorous faith experience, in addition to a massive enlargement in knowledge, resources, and schools of thought.
When I said, 'This is what I think,' I was immediately challenged by my peers. 'What if . . . What about . . . But it says . . ." Psychologically and emotionally it was tough. I had to have solid support for my words. I honed and refined and completely rebuilt my faith. When I was done it was rock-solid. And forever evolving.
Faith is not a static thing, once and done. If one's faith needs to be protected and guarded from discourse, it's a pretty fragile faith that might be awfully hard to trust. (Isn't that a contradiction? Hard to trust my faith!) Varying opinions, writers and beliefs were encouraged.
I underwent many interviews, psychological testing, a session with a psychiatrist, and counseling when deemed appropriate by seminary officials. It was a very rigorous experience, both of faith and self. All of us had very similar experiences.
Not all Christian denominations are so tough. Even mine, the ELCA, cannot catch everyone who ought to be steered in another direction. I've shared towns with clergy of other denominations who, by and large, were fine men doing their best to be faithful shepherds to their flocks. Most of the evangelical pastors only had rudimentary theological educations.
Mel was a good man, fully engaged in serving his congregation. He went to an unaccredited bible college for a year. I had knowledge when he didn't even know the questions. He had been taught what the Bible says and how to tell his congregation that.
I'm appalled when I hear about Christian education that forbids argument, or trivializes, minimizes, or belittles dissent.
As a "trained pastor"
As a trained false teacher.
"I had to have solid support for my words. I honed and refined and completely rebuilt my faith. When I was done it was rock-solid. And forever evolving.
Faith is not a static thing, once and done. If one's faith needs to be protected and guarded from discourse, it's a pretty fragile faith that might be awfully hard to trust."
And you are on record admitting you don't read my challenges. You must be protecting and guarding your false faith.
Sibson, you rascal, I think you have a grade school crush on Deb by the way you always try to egg her on with to bring her into the conversation, just sayin..
It is very easy to accuse people of being "false prophets."
How do we know for sure if the accuser are also false prophets or not?
Interesting that no one has mentioned, unless I missed it, Rev. Billy Graham.
Is he a "good guy" or a "guy?" He has raked in a heap of money as well. Different style, but still a lot of money.
"How do we know for sure if the accuser are also false prophets or not?"
The Bible.
Yup, the Bible. How's that haircut thing going, Sibby? Got any tats?
http://www.11points.com/Books/11_Things_The_Bible_Bans,_But_You_Do_Anyway
Bill, When I first read the prohibition against tats as I worked my way through by Grandfather's Bible I about fell over laughing. I have about 15 outspoken fundamentalist relatives who all have tats!
Funny, Bat. And let's not even get started on #8.
Kurtz might go nuts!
nuts, i get it. the divorce one damns me but nine wives probably make me good to go.
Find me more like that.
The Blindman
Steve S., you are an accuser, how do I know for sure that you are a "false" teacher, prophet, or Christian, or not?
I have not seen your name anywhere in the Bible.
JeniW, check the tags in his shirts? Maybe the garden in his back yard? LOL
"Leviticus 19:19 reads, "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."
JeniW
We are all going to be crispy critters according to Steve.
Lynn (future crispy critter)
I am going to be a crispy critter within three days after I die. I am going the "ashes to ashes" route, without any preservatives (embalming.) Already paid for...
I want to join the Crispy Critter Gang! I'm planning on cremation, scattering, and a marker in Bell Park Cemetery.
If you don't know where BPC is, try south of Rochford on the road to Deerfield, west side of the road. It's a gorgeous, rustic setting. I love the place.
Ms. Geelsdottir, that sounds like a nice place. People will stop and contemplate at your marker and then toast you with meat and beer at the MGS.
Sounds good to me Grudz. If I kick off before you, will you be one of the ones there? Please?!
Seems unlikely, Ms. Geelsdottir. But should that occur I will start the day right at the Sugar Shack with my good friend Bill and a nice plate of gravy taters before going to this place to contemplate your marker. Then we will toast you with beers and meat at that saloon across from the Rochford Mall and Bill will tack one of my old hats to the rafters in your honor and then we will argue politics.
I'm honored Grudz. From the heart of my bottom.