Governor Dennis Daugaard likes to view himself as the state's top cheerleader. Everything in South Dakota is awesome, the Governor will say... at least when he's trying to recruit corporations to come prey on our workers and build his donor base.
But bring up our public schools, and Governor Daugaard puts away the pom-poms and says private schools are better:
In an interview last week with 100 Eyes Daugaard said: "You can't say that you won't obtain quality without high compensation. I was just at O'Gorman (High School). The teachers at O'Gorman are paid, as a group, less than the Sioux Falls School District. Their students achieve better" [Patrick Anderson, "Daugaard's Teacher Pay Comments Spark Response from Educators," that Sioux Falls paper, 2014.10.27].
Them's fightin' words for Lennox teacher and debate coach Michael Larson, who recognizes the willful ignorance and deceit in Governor Daugaard's bogus comparison of public apples and private oranges:
The ignorance that Daugaard shows is that he thinks that the population at a private school like O'Gorman is the same as the population at Sioux Falls Washington.
At the private school that I taught many years ago, there was no special education department. We didn't have IEPs. Students whose needs that could not be met went to the public school in the town. These students came from mostly stable homes. The majority of them would be considered middle class families or high income families. The overwhelming majority of the students were Caucasian. That could not be said for the public school in Storm Lake, Iowa. It is ridiculous to even think that the challenges faced by teachers in that school were the same as the ones I faced in the private school [Michael Larson, "Only Daugaard Could Pull Me Back In," Taking a Left Turn in South Dakota, 2014.10.27].
The South Dakota School Superintendents' Association responds a bit more gently, pointing out that better wages for teachers, just like better wages in other fields, allow us to compete for higher-quality applicants:
We agree that the goal of education is student achievement, not expenditure. However, as research clearly shows, the role of the teacher is crucial to high student achievement, and, if we want higher student achievement, we need to expend a little more to recruit and retain more quality teachers. As with other areas of workforce development in our state, low wages have impacted the number of available workers in general, and specifically, a shortage of teachers in our schools.
We agree that compensation does attract quality. As with all workforce development, on average, higher wages tend to attract a higher quality of worker—see healthcare, corporate America, Main Street South Dakota, and education. We recognize that internal motivation, a positive workplace environment, job satisfaction, and being appreciated for the job one does, all add to an entities’ ability to attract quality employees, but we all understand that higher wages attract quality candidates [Dan Leikvold, South Dakota School Superintendents Association, open letter, 2014.10.27].
Governor Daugaard, you know full well that public schools labor under very different circumstances from private schools. They have a different mission and require more inputs to achieve that mission. And you know full well that higher wages attract a larger pool of better-qualified candidates. Picking up the pom-poms and honestly cheering our public schools for once would be nice. But picking up your pen and writing a better budget for K-12 education would bring even more cheer.
That Governor of yours is an imbecile. It used to be that the so-called "reformers" of education believed in "value added" testing, and would not make dumb claims like Daugaard's. Did Daugaard conveniently forget the talking points his minders gave him? This is the same simple-minded pap we get from Republicans all over the country. They must get it from the same well of idiocy.
What a crock Governor Daugaard. My son's freshman basketball coach and religion teacher at O'Gorman is now the Principal at one of the area's leading high schools. Whether he has done it or not, a lot of former O'Gorman teachers are also now teaching at his high school and probably at other schools in the area. When my sister taught there back in the 1960s the only teacher making a living wage was the football coach.
To echo what teacher Michael Larson had to say, we took to refugee students from Uganda into our home at the request of Catholic Family Services, which at that time was located on the campus of O'Gorman. Our son was going to be a freshman there, so being these boys were older than our son, we thought they would be going to school together. O'Gorman could not take them because they needed some remedial help in language an in other classes so they were dumped on the Public school for their education.
In addition to that, How many parents does one think would keep their children in a private school that charges over three thousand dollars a year (low tuition compared to Catholic schools in other areas, I recently heard 20k for one school)? If the child is not achieving, there are not the resources to help him or her to achieve at private schools that there are at public schools. So I am sure that many parents will take Johnny or Suzie out of the private school and put them into the public school to get them the help they need and to save the tuition that they are paying.
Daugaard's horns are finally coming out now that he's secured an easy re-election. If shit pay works for teachers and paying them above worst in the nation won't improve morale or productivity, does DimWit Dennis apply the same standard to his political appointees in Pierre?
What? Didn't think so.
"Governor Daugaard, you know full well that public schools labor under very different circumstances from private schools."
Your are right Cory. So the solution for public schools is not higher teacher pay, but to stop preaching immorality and replace that with Biblical studies, like the private schools do.
Biblical studies = unicorn research
Fingerprints of God: What Science Is Learning About the Brain and Spiritual Experience
http://www.amazon.com/Fingerprints-God-Learning-Spiritual-Experience/dp/1594484627
"So the solution for public schools is not higher teacher pay, but to stop preaching immorality and replace that with Biblical studies, like the private schools do."
I'll consider the source of this comment and move on.
Sibby is simply out to lunch:
http://www.brookingsregister.com/v2_news_articles.php?heading=0&page=76&story_id=22569
http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/in-tense-session-teachers-lecture-superintendent/article_0de07672-8588-5db2-8559-70606cd56722.html
What is DD's nickname? Dumb Dennis? Comparing public and private schools won't work in this case. I first attended public schools and then was sentenced to private school.
There are many things I could argue going both ways but most of the kids I went to school with at the private school definitely came from middle to upper class households that were stable and safe environments for them to learn and prosper. It was basically college prep but you had to be the right fit for the school to take advantage of it.
The larger the city a private school is located the more exclusive it is. Sioux Falls O'Gorman is like a country club today compared to some small town private schools that are scraping by and definitely better than public schools. When you go to a metro area like the Twin Cities it becomes more pronounced such as Cretin-Derham Hall, De La Salle High and other private schools are very expensive, exclusive and are like the Ivy League of High Schools.
I could go on and on about this but there is a difference. Our Governor needs to focus on improving our public schools such as a badly needed increase in funding.
Otherwise the way things are going the public schools will be for the production of drones.
The privileged go to private school on my taxpayer dollar. What do we citizens get out of that remains to be seen. It would seem that these young folks that are processed in those settings have a leg up to go to higher education and then what? How can they be effective in business or leaders if they are clueless on how to deal with life itself. These religious settings are fake and not real to what life is outside of that environment. How do you deal with special education needs when you are an adult that has not dealt with them as a youngster? Difficult at best. Nope, I want someone who has come up in public schools, educated by public school teachers to work to make this world a better place. I sure as hell do not want sheep that cannot think outside the box. This world needs critical thinkers that can address issues with clarity. The last I looked, private schools in small towns have closed shop. Does Daugaard think that these Catholic schools are going to open again? Who would pay for them and where would you get the teachers? Make all the teachers Nuns? Home schooled perhaps? Daugaard is a thief that is as dirty as Rounds.
"I first attended public schools and then was sentenced to private school."
So who sentenced you Lynn?
The real difference between private schools (whether religious based or not,) is that private schools can refuse to accept the children that they do not want, or refuse to accept students that require special education and/or services.
I meant to type the "real difference between private schools and public schools is that private schools can refuse to accept students...."
How did sending tax-payer dollars to private schools pass constitutional muster? How did allowing churches to advocate for pols pass muster?
Steve,
My parents sentenced me to the Catholic School system. The only positive I gained was a deeper appreciation for my faith, the Priests and Nuns I knew who sacrificed to do the positive things they did. Beyond that it was not a safe environment to learn with rampant bullying and violence.
The Administration looked the other way since those kids belonged to prominent families that donated greatly to the church, school or sat on the school board where if their kids conducted themselves the way they did at a public school system they would of been expelled right away.
There were a number of kids besides myself who's education severely suffered as a result and we didn't tell our parents what was going on. My parents realized years later after sharing with them what happened it was a waste of money and I would of done far better at a public school academically and I knew many of those kids from the public schools anyways.
Don't get me started on Catholic families and Catholic schools. The Catholic kids who terrorized me were the nastiest, two-faced indecent human beings I ever met. I was too ashamed to tell my parents of the harassment and bullying I suffered, it was just something you didn't back then, and besides my holier than thou Catholic mom knew it was happening, since she was a teacher there, but didn't want to intervene since these Catholic families went to Church every Sunday. So people that think there is no bullying in public schools - THERE IS PLENTY OF BULLYING GOING ON IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS!
I meant to say people that think there is no bullying and harassment in private schools are wrong. There is plenty going of bullying going on in private schools.
Jerry,
One problem coming from a private school is that some and let me stress some of these kids when they get older get the head start in life, prosper and then want to pull the ladder up so it makes it very difficult for others to succeed as witnessed here in our state.
Jenny,
It was almost like these kids were taught cronyism in the environment we dealt with in our private school hell. It was all about abuse, coverup and reaping rewards for a select few. It was Politics .025 with Politics 101 coming their Freshman year college.
I would say the bullying is even worse in a private school - the Catholic one I came from anyway. Caucasian upper class children and their parents think they're special. They think their religion rules over all others and believe their little princes and princesses can do no wrong. So the bullying and nonrelational aggression is enforced in a silent way. There are our future city and business leader, politicians after all. Give my daughter a poor little girl for a playmate any day over these ruthless families.
Jenny
Based on my experience and observations I completely agree. There was a boy that was kicked in the groin so many times and one time so bad he had to go to the hospital I'd be surprised if he was ever fertile. It happened every day and there was a gang that cruised the halls inflicting terrible things.
The politics of those prominent popular families applies favoritism to sports or other extracurricular activities also where it is enhanced greatly over what would happen at a public school.
Plus for example during basketball games the conduct of the kids and some parents from the Catholic School I attended would yell obscenities at the refs or opposing team while the kids and parents from the public schools in our conference wouldn't and would actually show good sportsmanship. My parents and I would be so embarrassed with the conduct our school displayed.
My graduating class was the one of the last of the large Catholic family classes and to this day hardly anyone goes to reunions or has anything to do with their former classmates.
Since then I have shared what happened and have helped prevent a number of families from sending their kids to that school.
Again public education needs far better support in our state.
Daugaard's kids went to a private Catholic school. I know because I taught them.
Dell Rapids St. Mary's?
"My parents sentenced me to the Catholic School system."
So you went to public school and learned the anti-parent worldview and it has stuck. You are not alone Lynn. It is part of the plan for social evolution. The result has been the opposite.
Mike, With Jim Abbott, 2002 Democratic candidate for governor, a Catholic and his family sitting in the front pew at St Joseph's Cathedral in Sioux Falls, Bishop Robert Carlson allowed then Governor BIll Janklow to give a talk from the altar, campaigning for Mike Rounds for Governor. What separation of church and state?
Sibby and Ted have so much in common:
http://interested-party.blogspot.com/2010/12/montana-lot-for-sale-manifesto-not.html
Steve,
You are as always so off the mark it is beyond our Galaxy.
Wouldn't your time be better spent calling, e-mailing, sending out flyers or going door to door helping Gordon Howie get all the votes he can than post here where your not taken seriously? Wait! Maybe going door to door or making phone calls would not be the best idea since you will annoy the hell out of people. How about you focus on sending out flyers to potential Mr. Howie voters. He could use your help!
Sibby, I'm sorry what Catholicism did to you. I really am. The Catholic institution hurt me also, but I will not let it me warp my belief that there are still good people in the world.
Was Wild Bill Janklow Catholic??
Janklow was not catholic:
http://www.keloland.com/newsdetail.cfm/weighing-in-janklow-trial-aftermath/?id=29649
Lanny that is incredible! I was living out of state at the time that must have happened but I have never heard or seen anything like that before which was so partisan in the church. Was it at or after Mass?
Did some people get up and walk out?
Sibby is a prime example of the type of person violinist Jascha Heifitz was talking about when he said, "No matter what side you're on, there will always be someone on your side that you wish was on the other side. "
Fortunately, Lynn and Jenny's anecdotal evidence is just one side of the coin and shouldn't determine the validity of public versus private school. My experiences were highly different. I was a much better kid at private school and I felt a closer connection with all of my peers. The quality of education was much higher. When I left for public school, I found the bullying increased dramatically and I was finding myself in the principal's office for the first time in my life. The worst bullies were not christian and tend to come from crappy homes. If given the choice, I'd send my kids to private school over public in a heartbeat.
Jenny, As Larry said, Janklow was not a Catholic, and that is the point. It was against church rules as well as against the Constitution of the United States.
Lynn, It was during Mass and people did get up and walk out. That was pretty common at least in Sioux Falls in those days, because Bishop Carlson, (you know, the guy who turned his head and looked the other way in Minnesota when he was in charge of what to do about pedophile priests,) expected his priests to preach on the evils of abortion and on the evils of the political party that condoned abortion. People often got up and walked out particularly around election time in the Sioux Falls parishes, not sure about elsewhere in the State.
""""No matter what side you're on, there will always be someone on your side that you wish was on the other side. """"". Isn't this exactly how Sib describes both parties?
What's your point, Less?
Homogenous caucasian private schools will always have the best test scores, and bullying pretty much rules everywhere, sadly today.
Les, ummm... no.
Sibby's quote would be:
"No matter what side you're on, you are wrong... because... bible."
Bullying is everywhere at all ages and will never go away. It has been like that since the beginning of time. Better to accept it and teach everyone to cope with it than try to get rid of it. I mean, just look how everyone gangs up on Sibby.....we have a bunch of grown adults bullying a poster because of his beliefs. It's pretty apparent how anyone conservative gets singled out here. It's why even the more respectable posters with a difference of opinion flee. Does it make the rest of you feel good about yourselves when you degrade him?
Uhh, janklow was not catholic and MMR and DD are, "Lar". How's tthat work..?
Daniel,
Would you care to explain your statement? "I was a much better kid at private school and I felt a closer connection with all of my peers." Do you mean your experience was better there and it was just a better fit? If so, that's great!
The kids that were the target of violence were not hell-raisers and all that different from the others. They came from good families, were very bright, good social skills being polite and a few did very well in college being fairly popular once they left that environment.
Almost every one of those abusers came from families that were doctors in town but obviously something was missing in their homes or why would they behave with so much anger, hatred and inflict harm on others who did nothing to provoke it. The abuser's families were active in the church and school but whether that means they were Christians only God would know.
The public school had a great reputation with some excellent teachers and I was friends with many kids around my age there that did quite well and had a good experience. It had far more diversity and I got along with the different groups. I'm just saying my parents could of saved a great deal of money and I would of had better opportunities with a safer environment more conducive to learning with better fairness there.
DD is a member of some other christian sect, Less.
Daniel, memorize this:
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."
— Thomas Jefferson
Don't want to catch flack here on Madville? Start making sense.
Sibby is a melodrama where everyone boos the villain.
Sorry, "Lar". Dd attends the Holy Roman Church or did I muss ur point?
Ridicule is the weapon of the unintelligent.
ah, so insulting and bullying is allowed against those with differing opinions. Got it. I didn't know your clique was in charge of determining what makes sense. I must not have gotten the memo.
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and requires little intelligence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Daugaard DD is a Lutheran.
The Sibbinator knows very well what to expect when he comes on a progressive blog with his far to the right Christian beliefs. Come on, Daniel.
Actually, the public MN school I send my daughter to is very staunch on an anti-bullying atmosphere. I can email my principal and he'll be on it that same day or the very next day with the kid in his office if my daughter has had any problems with a bully. Very impressive.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/10/26/what-is-dennis-daugaards-religion/
Gov. Daugaard is a Lutheran.
Flemming hasn't been much of a voice at Maddville for several years, returns and makes the rules.
Daniel we are bullies are on a certain conservative? It's not that this person is a conservative but that their social skills and beliefs are so far out there that they are hijacking many threads going places and disrupting the flow of threads. It is a total mismatch.
Let me give you another example. A dear friend of mine used to have I'm sure if it was ADD or something like that but she would always talk beyond other people and would be oblivious to social cues of disinterest or other signals what many take for granted in common interaction with people.
Once she got the right meds that worked her life totally changed in how she could relate and communicate with others. She developed real various level relationships for the first time in her life.
Les smells more and more like PP every day.
Yeah, he should expect insults and personal attacks. We know that by looking at just about every thread. I am just wondering why you think it is ok? I find it hard to believe someone who talks about being bullied as a child and how it affected them and their only response to different opinions is bullying.
"Governor Daugaard, you know full well public school teachers labor under a different set of circumstances than private school teachers"
I take issue with that Cory.
Must have been why he was so nervous when I met him in Church, JeniW. He was out of place with us Catholics.
Oh ok, so bullying is ok if that person's beliefs disrupt the flow of the discussion because you want it to go in a linear direction straight to liberal principles. I get it.
I think PP's nose is larger than mine, "Lar", so he probably smells bettern I do.
Do you think we're all Neo-Marxists living in a New Theocracy Age that are not following God's words, Buresh?
Anyone can attend churches that they do not belong to.
A few months ago a Lutheran attended a Presbyterian church because of a special occasion for a family member. That does not mean that she is now Presbyterian.
If Gov. Daugaard attended a Mass, so what, it does not mean that he is Catholic.
Daniel, Sibby constantly interrupts people's conversations here, calls people names, provokes argument on the most off topic points, and tries to force his ridiculous, half-baked belief system down everyone's throat.
Most of the time, when you show up here, you come on with some attack on Cory about his logo any time you can find a way to squeeze it in.
I submit that you and Sibby are the bullies here, and that there is nothing wrong with this community of bloggers trying to defend one another's personal integrity and the integrity of our otherwise civil and interesting conversation.
In short, mess with the buffalo here and you'll get the horns.
Nope. I think you are intolerant, along with many other posters who instead of attacking an idea, attack a person's level of intelligence or personal reasoning for such a belief. Just because someone is catholic, or christian, or republican, or missing half their brain, they are still allowed to have their beliefs without being felt a lesser person.
Daniel,
Personal attacks, insults, lies, misinformation, and distorting the truth. Have you spent much time at DWC?
I have always believed that one can learn from those you disagree with and that is obviously within reason. Sibby is way out there and hijacks many threads with the same hobby horse like a broken record player. It would be like having a neo Nazi or some fringe group come and post on a progressive or conservative blog constantly hijacking nearly every thread. You at first are polite and then it tends to get more aggressive since this person seems unable to read social cues that it's time to stop.
Daniel the most recent posts you have made definitely at least to me look like you have an axe to grind. I'm happy your education experience was good at the private school you attended.
Sibby comes here and plays the victim here too while seeking attention.
There is not a school anywhere that is perfect for each child.
Every public and private school has its good, bad and ugly. Just like the work world of the adults.
I am indeed intolerant of arguments that make no sense. Guilty as charged.
"""Anyone can attend churches that they do not belong to."""" NSS.
Lynn, I don't spend anytime on blogs because they are generally full of partisan hacks that can't see further than 2 inches outside of what's in front of their face. It's a waste of time and accomplishes nothing, which is why i'll prolly disappear for a while. There is work to be done. Though, it is fun watching adults justify their bullying behavior. He does it so we can do it. DWC does it so we can do it. He could be blocked, but that doesn't spur traffic and discussion on a person's blog, now does it.
JeniW,
When I was in private school our church had an exchange program with other houses of worship and it was great and very educational! I don't think the issue is with Janklow or DD attending another denomination's church but that the Catholic Church is supposed to be publically neutral and not endorse candidates. That to me is shocking!
Darrell, yes they do labor differently.
Private schools can refuse to accept any student they do not want, or cannot meet the needs of.
Public schools have to accept every student.
Daniel
Partisan and only see two inches in front of my face? Speaking for myself when the time is available I read many sources from many political spectrums to try to gain different perspectives. Otherwise it can just be propaganda and isn't necessarily what has been happening or the truth.
I'll make sure to check with you Bill before I make an argument to see if it passes your standards for making sense. I'd hate to have beliefs that don't align with yours to justify the reasoning behind my position because we all know that believing in something different than what you do does not make sense and therefore warrants ridicule.
Don't let the door hit you in the assets, DB.
Like clockwork.
Lynn,
I belonged to and attended the Catholic Church for several years. Overall, it was a positive experience, and what I needed at the time.
When a priest said at Mass near the time of every election, "I can't tell you how to vote, but God will know how you vote, and hold you accountable." The message was very clear. That was the start of my moving away from the Catholic Church.
http://daschlevthune.typepad.com/daschle_v_thune/2004/02/daschle_and_bis.html
I agree with Sibby that Stace Nelson would have made a better Senator representing SD than crony Mike Rounds with all the corruption that has happened under his governorship.
Daniel, just lay your argument out there and I will refute it as necessary. If you counter rationally, so will I. If you persist ad nauseum with irrational blather after having been shown the flaws in your reasoning repeatedly, you can expect a rebuke in kind. That is Sibby's situation here. He seems not to mind as he keeps coming back.
Now, do you have anything relevant to say vis a vis the topic of this thread, or do you just want to keep whining?
Bill I keep coming back because it is very entertaining to read bullies complaining about bullies, crony capitalists complaining about crony capitalists, theocrats complaining about theocrats...etc
Nice Sibby. There is definitely an entertainment aspect to all this. Have you ever read any of Will Eno's plays?
I have believed it was the very element of low teacher pay that has kept the privatizing movement out of SD education. Given the remarkable increase in costs required to give a non-public (non-curch supported) option, there is no money to be made in private education in SD. In many states, the public schools charge a premium to attend, but in our "all taxes are bad" mentality, I cannot see SD families paying a great deal more to "choose" an alternative to our remarkable and inexpensive public option. The Sioux Falls metro area certainly has the population for a purely private school to make a run.
I also say that if SFO'G or any school has figured out how to better educate the students, let's all look at that and figure out which of those ideas can transfer to other places so all can benefit from those insights. That is the element of public education - the drive to share success - that defines why schools are not businesses, nor should they be treated as such. Treating schools as a business demeans schools.
It is worth repeating the insights here that SFO'G has lost teachers to the public schools because of salary - just as SD now finds itself in a statewide teacher shortage for those same economic factors. The "love of teaching" is not enough to sustain an educational system of qualified professionals. Private schools also are forced to restrict opportunities (from co-curricular to special education) to the students and families willing to shoulder the costs of those opportunities. Lack of funding is not a virtue; it is an obstacle that eventually negatively affects students in any setting.
Okay Madville readers, take your hand off your mouse for a minute and raise your hand if you think Sibson is in anyway relevant.
The wealthy Catholic doctors of Mayo Clinic just built themselves a beautiful 18 million dollar high school - Lourdes - to send their little brats off to. Yes, nice elite test scores, winning sports teams, only the very best that money can buy.
O-private schools get to pick and choose the students they want. They go for the best-the smartest,the most teachable,the most likely to want to attend college,those from the best backgrounds. In short they get to skim the cream and leave the rest for the public schools who are forced to accept and accomodate every child. it is really that simple.
DB-some of us don't bother trying to engage Sibson in any discussion because it is an exercise in futility trying to get him to stay on target. The first chance he gets he is off in la-la land calling everyone neo this and neo that. He has his own blog where no one goes. Join him there and you can call each other good neighbors all you want.
quite quiet here after 13:37 Roger!
Mike, I agree with you about how the private-public student population accounts for much of the ability for privates to shine. I just don't want to discount that there is also good teaching going on and as a practitioner myself, would welcome any insights any good teacher was willing to share - no matter who cuts their paycheck.
More and more research points to the socio-economic status of students (and their families) as a huge determination of education success. If privates are succeeding primarily, or only for that reason, then it is time to address that issue - not only in our schools.
I also experienced the public and Catholic school systems as a child. As a Recovering Catholic, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am a compassionate, tolerant human being not because of my religious upbringing, but in spite of it. My kids went through the public school system. I still remember when their middle school ran out of paper before the end of the school year and the budget money was gone. When we do not invest in education, we get an uneducated populace. Why education funding is not a priority here is beyond my comprehension.
Daugaard and the rest of the phonies spend more on the keeping a steady diet of slave labor prisoners than to fund schools. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/29/1340134/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-11-states-spent-more-on-corrections-than-on-higher-education-in-2013
Impressive factors permanently, you sabzimiveh recently accumulated a different readers. What exactly might you actually recommend regarding your send you created day or two before? Almost any guaranteed?