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Rep. Betty Olson Wants Armed French Teachers in Your School

Last updated on 2012.12.19

Rep. Betty Olson (R-28B/Prairie City) is revving up to keep me busy blogging this winter. She wants me to carry a gun in my classroom:

As residents of Newtown, Conn., began burying the 20 children and six adults killed in Friday's school shooting, a South Dakota legislator is drafting a bill that would allow teachers, administrators and even janitors to bring guns to school.

Rep. Betty Olson, R-Prairie City, told The Associated Press on Monday that she believes armed school personnel could have mitigated the Newtown massacre.

"Those children and teachers, that was like shooting fish in a barrel," Olson said.

The bill wouldn't require school personnel to be armed, she said, but it would allow those who have concealed weapons permits to bring their firearms into the building [Amber Hunt, "Conn. Deaths to Spark Gun Debate in SD Legislature," AP via Mitchell Daily Republic, 2012.12.17].

Rep. Olson faces many challenges. She'll need to figure out how to repeal federal law from Pierre. She'll answer whether in the event of a shooting, she really wants every janitor and myopic French teacher drawing into a crossfire (an issue we discussed in 2008 in the context of that year's guns-on-campus bill).

Oh, wait: Rep. Olson already has an answer:

In a scenario described by Olson, armed school personnel could have felled Lanza with a lethal shot by waiting for him to reload or turn his head. Olson dismissed the idea that people attempting to intervene could injure others in the crossfire or become victims themselves.

"They're going to be dead regardless, the way I see it, so (being armed) is the only chance they've got," she said [Hunt/AP, 2012.12.17].

You kids are dead anyway, so at least let some John-Wayne fantasists go out in a blaze of glory.

I'll start working on my testimony to House State Affairs. But let me say this: allow people to carry guns in my school, and I will feel less secure, not more. Guns will not solve my students' practical, daily problems. As a teacher, a parent, and a believer in democracy, I have an obligation to embody to my children the belief that in America, we solve problems with communication and cooperation, not with force. If I bring a gun to my classroom, I signal to my students that democracy and civilization don't work.

Related: I have mistakenly told people that Israeli teachers carry weapons. They do not. You can't carry a gun into an Israeli school. Israel has tougher gun control laws than the United States. It also has fewer school shootings.

Also Related: Steve Sibson and Pat Powers are both desperately trying to keep guns out of the debate. Sibson wants to blame the banning of the Bible (which hasn't happened) and violent video games (which I'll agree may have a desensitizing effect). Powers wants to talk, a little more sensibly, about properly treating mental illness... which will require increasing public health expenses to take the burden of caring for the mentally ill off parents.

Update 07:03 MST: Michigan Governor Rick Snyder is considering vetoing a bill his Legislature just passed allowing concealed weapons in schools.

211 Comments

  1. Jerry 2012.12.18

    Ms. Olson is a dolt to think that. Only a skilled, trained shooter could fell a moving target that is firing. She does not get that the shooter had ample rounds to help prevent reloading. Perhaps it is she who watches too many violent movies and she should control herself first. Regarding the movies, they exist all over the world and the world does not have these constant mass murders, unless you count the drug wars in Mexico. Arming teachers or janitors is not the answer, but maybe a function for local authorities. It would seem that there could be an officer present at all schools for sure. Why not? We have them at the airports, which by the way, do not allow guns period.

  2. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "Sibson wants to blame the banning of the Bible (which hasn't happened)"

    What world do you life in Cory. Try teaching kids to read the Bible in French and what the ACLU come to life.

    "Only a skilled, trained shooter could fell a moving target that is firing."

    So only law enforcement could have stopped him? No, he committed suicide as soon as someone with a gun showed up. Too bad that didn't happen seconds after he shot out the windows of the locked doors, perhaps there would be a lot less funerals this week in Newtown.

  3. Dana P. 2012.12.18

    Ft Hood. Most populous military base in the country. Heavily armed, highly trained. 13 dead, 29 injured (that would be 43 people shot)

  4. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Yes Dana, I get it. We already have enough guns, we just need to start bringing them with us instead of leaving them at home. And that goes for teachers too.

  5. El Rayo X 2012.12.18

    As long as Mr. Sibson brought up the subject, will the good Christians of the Westboro Baptist Church be bringing their Bibles to Newtown?

    As for Rep. Olson, I'm sure the State of South Dakota could get surplus military Beretta 92's at little to no cost for our teachers. Add to that, carry and conseal holsters, intergral lazer sighting with grips, close quarters combat ammo and lots of range time. A ballpark figure, maybe an additional $100 per student, tops. Go Betty go.

  6. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    Steve, I have seen you shoot. I don't want to count on you to protect me and those I love when we're out and about.

    Nor do I want to live in a society where everyone is expected to carry a weapon and if they don't it's their own fault if something happens to them.

    Your ideas on this are beyond outrageous and beneath

  7. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    ...contempt.

  8. Steve O'Brien 2012.12.18

    I don't believe the answer to violence is escalation. Having an armed teaching force ready to repel any incursion is not dissuasive to someone (especially someone mentally ill) who is intent to do harm. Given the availability of assault weapons, body armor, extended clips for ammunition, I'm not convinced stationing a garrison at each school would ensure safety.

    This is the sad reality that we all have to come to grips with: we cannot completely protect ourselves, our schools, even our country from fanatics intent to do us harm.

  9. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "we cannot completely protect ourselves, our schools, even our country from fanatics intent to do us harm."

    That is right, and those who chose to try should not have their right to self-defense removed by those who have given up and just want to hide behind a desk until the police show up.

  10. Eve Fisher 2012.12.18

    Absolutely, Jerry - there was an experiment done where people were given guns (of all types) that shot only paint, were put in a school situation, and told to defend themselves. The actual shooter got out clean. The people with guns, many of whom were certain they were Rambo incarnate, and some of whom were military veterans, managed to shoot their innocent fellow citizens at a great rate. Why? Because they panicked. Because it was crowded. Because they honestly weren't sure who the shooter was, with all the guns around. Arming everybody is an insane idea, born only in a media-fueled brain. I do not want to live in Somalia, because you can't step outside without getting shot.
    Matthew 26:52 - Jesus said, “Put up again thy sword into his place, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Who would Jesus shoot? Nobody.

  11. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    Again, this is Sibson blaming the victims. Unconscionable.

  12. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    " Who would Jesus shoot? Nobody."

    So you can't be a Christian and a police officer too?

  13. Becca 2012.12.18

    I would yank my child out of school if they allowed guns on campus. And I live in a very large area where school shootings have actually occurred in recent years.

  14. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    1. Sibby advocates for a violent society and
    2. Wants to force women to bring children into it.

    What's wrong with this picture?

  15. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "Again, this is Sibson blaming the victims."

    Again, Fleming lies. I am blaming unconstitutional laws, that is if we had a Supreme Court that is willing to protect the Constitution.

  16. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "I would yank my child out of school if they allowed guns on campus."

    You should yank them out anyway. Schools are not safe, the only ones with guns are the mass murderers.

  17. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "Sibby advocates for a violent society"

    Again Fleming lies. I have actually advocated restrictions on violent entertainment and kids. Why doesn't anybody want to talk about the shooter's violent gaming culture fostered by the school?

  18. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    read your own post's Sibby. I'm not lying. You are in a state of denial.

  19. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 (Translated to English)

    Classified guns for "sporting purposes".
    All citizens who wished to purchase firearms had to register with the Nazi officials and have a background check.
    Presumed German citizens were hostile and thereby exempted Nazis from the gun control law.
    Gave Nazis unrestricted power to decide what kinds of firearms could, or could not be owned by private persons.
    The types of ammunition that were legal were subject to control by bureaucrats.
    Juveniles under 18 years could not buy firearms and ammunition.

    Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

    http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id14.html

  20. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    So the mass murder of Jews was not an act of violence Fleming? Only guns can be considered violent, even in the act of self-defense?

  21. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Obama's Weapons Act of 2013:

    Christians, who are a danger to homosexuals, are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

  22. Owen Reitzel 2012.12.18

    this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. talk about somebody with a mental health problem. Teaching is coming under attack from all sides and now you want them to carry a gun in school? Crazy.

  23. Eve Fisher 2012.12.18

    By the way, if Mr. Sibson is right, and arming everybody is the answer, then obviously Iran should be allowed nuclear weapons. Please. Just sit in your man-cave with all your weapons and your highly edited Bible and have a wonderful life. Peace and joy to you. Seriously.

    Meanwhile, let's the rest of us try to figure out a way to get the ban on assault weapons reinstated.

  24. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    Steve surrenders the argument by comparing citizens concerned about the safety of their children to Nazis, while simultaneously defending the rights of a mass murderer and other mentally deranged individuals to carry deadly assault weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition into an elementary school and blow those self-same children away.

    His remedy? It's a free country. Let 'em shoot back.

    Impenetrably, obscenely twisted reasoning.

  25. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "now you want them to carry a gun in school?"
    "if Mr. Sibson is right, and arming everybody is the answer"

    What logic says that if you support a right to bear arms you are forcing everybody to bear arms? Oh yeah, the logic that says the solution to a mass murder in a school that bans guns is to ban guns everywhere.

    "Steve surrenders the argument by comparing citizens concerned about the safety of their children to Nazis"

    Another lie by Fleming. I too am concerned about the safety of children. I am just pointing out that gun control is not the solution, but instead is the problem, as proved by history.

  26. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    So Fleming, what is your solution, a complete ban on guns or just toward those that you judge as "mentally ill", which seems to include all Christians? Would you support the premise of a "Obama Weapons Law". Does mental health fall under the scope of Obamacare?

  27. LK 2012.12.18

    Last summer trained New York City police officers wounded 6 bystanders while killing a murder suspect.
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html
    NYC cops should have some of the best triaining in the world. According to Rep. Olson, I am now supposed to believe that people who have no training aren't going to shoot me in the back while trying shoot an armed intruder. If trained police officers wound innocent bystanders, untrained folk will probably wind up killing them.

  28. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    The law already stipulates that persons with mental disorders can't buy weapons, Steve. That's not MY solution, it is THE solution, or at least one of them.

    We need to close the Gun Show loophole to better enforce this law, we need better cross referencing of records between medical and law enforcement databases to facilitate permit confirmation and denial, and we need to seriously consider what types of weapons should be legally available to the general public.

    We also need more access to good mental health treatment, and to culturally de-stigmatize people with mental disorders.

  29. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "We also need more access to good mental health treatment, and to culturally de-stigmatize people with mental disorders."

    Ever hear of the right to privacy Bill? What is the definition of "mentally ill", anyone that disagrees with the left's agenda? Are you going to push for Christianity as a form of "mental illness" Seems like Cory, you, and others have made that argument many times on this web site. Are you going to push the government to take away the right to bear arms from Howie, Ellis, and myself?

    Seems like you and Pat Powers are on the same page with this issue. Not surprised.

    [CAH: I have never pushed to declare Christianity a mental illness. I have said that some Christians say crazy things.]

  30. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Owen, so Australia is now open for someone like Hitler. Do you consider that safe?

  31. Owen Reitzel 2012.12.18

    Hitler???? wow Steve. Regulating guns means the return of Hitler?

    And it is a mental health issue as well

  32. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    Get counseling Sibby. There's no shame in it.

  33. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Owen and Bill, Not surprised you two cannot deal with reality and instead attack those who bring it forward. Steve Hickey has brought that point out too. Instead of dealing with the issue head on, we are talking about guns. We are at a crossroads, so we have two options. Continue to believe in the principles of our found fathers, or give up freedoms for the sake of safety and end up with neither...in other words, end up with another Hitler. Larry elder found some interesting quotes:

    James Madison, the “father of the Constitution,” stated that tyrants were “afraid to trust the people with arms” and lauded “the advantage of being armed, which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.”

    Vladimir Lenin said, “One man with a gun can control 100 without one.”

    Mao Zedong said, “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”

    Josef Stalin said: “We don’t let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?”

    Adolf Hitler said: “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.”

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2008/07/68603/#QKiYcwQgSHEr6bqz.99

  34. Owen Reitzel 2012.12.18

    so if all had guns we'd all be safe Steve?
    there's 2 problems here mental health and guns. simple as that.
    there is no Hitler around the corner and no commies hiding under beds. A world with fewer guns would be, well, safer. perfect, no but safer

  35. Dana P. 2012.12.18

    Steve, my point of the Ft Hood shooting was that people WERE armed, and could not prevent mass casualties. An incident in New York a few months ago - police responded, and eight "innocent" civilians were hit with gunfire. (Police have to pass firearms training to carry their guns) There are many examples of people having weapons, and could not/did not, stop the carnage. (Please take a minute and read that article - facts don't lie!)

    How about a visual example?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

    I trust our teachers alot. I support our teachers alot. But are we really living in a free society when we are asking our school folks to be armed? Seriously? So much can go wrong (again, read the article - watch the video) Why would anyone be opposed to common sense gun safety laws? And please quit twisting that into "they are disarming us". That just goes high on the silly meter.

  36. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    No one here besides you is talking about disarming the people, Sibson. We are talking about restricting access to insane people. And we're talking about drawing a line as to what type of weapons we want to allow one another to carry via the social contract.

  37. Taunia 2012.12.18

    Drug problems? Make sure everyone is shooting up so we're all crazed zombies. Alcohol problems? Make the liquor flow freely, starting in kindergarten, and we're all incapacitated. Theft problems? Give courses in how to be a good thief and put all your valuables on the front lawn.

    That should solve all problems.

    Makes as much sense as arming more people.

  38. Taunia 2012.12.18

    6th Grader Brings Rifle To School, Says He Was Following Parents’ Direction After Newtown

    http://tinyurl.com/c767mdw

    This made school a hell of a lot safer today.

  39. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "has our country come to this?"

    Yes, our country has come to multiple mass murders in gun-free zones. Who on this thread believes that us humans will create an utopian environment where there is no murders, no poverty, and no evil?

  40. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    To Fleming: You are not hoping for an utopian environment, you just want to reduced the numbers in a mass murder from 26 to say 4 or 5, right?

  41. Taunia 2012.12.18

    No one, Steve.

    Who on this thread *coughSteve* thinks we should arm everyone, kill em all, and let "God" sort em out?

  42. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Mr. Hickey provides another example of kids packing heat at school, but this is Israel:

    If the teenager I saw in Israel carrying the AK-47 on his class outing could be trained sufficient to be armed to protect his class, I just don’t think we need to put the training bar as high as we do for law enforcement.

    http://dakotawarcollege.com/typically-in-response-to-school-shooting-buhl-wants-to-ban-guns/comment-page-1/#comment-146555

    Again, we can move more toward the environment our Founding Fathers set up, or we can move further down the road of gun control giving up those freedoms in the name of safety. Anybody cherish being ruled by a Stalin or a Hitler?

  43. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Taunia, so we are going to disarm everybody and let the dictator like Hitler decide who dies and who lives? If so, God will still be sorting things out.

  44. Taunia 2012.12.18

    Godwin's Law never lets us down.

  45. Dana P. 2012.12.18

    oh Steve. Please take off the tin foil hat. NO ONE is talking about disarming people. Sheez! and no, with common sense gun safety laws in place, it will not stop every shooting. But wouldn't you at least like to try to prevent them?

    You keep mentioning Hitler. Interesting. You are talking about a person who brainwashed folks into looking the other way and having a certain mindset - while millions of innocent people were slaughtered. Daily. For years.

  46. Taunia 2012.12.18

    Heil Sibson, der autor Mein Kampf, II.

  47. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Dana, you gun control advocates need to understand why the Second Amendment was put into the Constitution. It was to prevent a Hitler or a Stalin, and they killed even more millions of people than Planned Parenthood's abortion mills. If you do not look that point into the face and are willing to accept that risk, then be honest and admit it instead of thinking you can have your cake and eat it too...utopia.

    Taunia, once you are ready to have a constructive discussion, then let me know, OK?

  48. Taunia 2012.12.18

    More abortions will prevent abortions, right Steve?

  49. larry kurtz 2012.12.18

    Bullying Steve and telling a segment of the population, including many returning veterans, that they are the problem doesn't feel like a solution.

    The rule of law trumps civil war any day: let's not make the chasm look like the way out especially as the solstice brings a new year.

    Cannápopa Wi - Moon When Trees Crack From The Cold.

  50. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    If the price of liberty is to allow madmen to carry assault rifles and murder rooms full of six and seven year olds, Steve, it's too high a price.

    You insult the Founders, God, Jesus Christ, and your fellow human beings by insinuating that it is.

    I've have had more than my fill of your bullshit for the season, and refuse to dialogue with you anymore, Mr. Sibson.

    My parting advice to you is to go get your head examined.

    Like today.

  51. Bill Fleming 2012.12.18

    Larry, Steve is the aggressor here, and I for one am fed up with it.

  52. Taunia 2012.12.18

    If you people would just commit suicide, we wouldn't have to have this discussion.

    "I'd also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once." http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/18/newsweeks-megan-mcardle-calls-for-children-to-b/191889

  53. larry kurtz 2012.12.18

    It's being reported that governors like Hickenlooper in Colorado are out ahead of the President by banning some sales: it would take someone getting a judge to stop it.

  54. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "If the price of liberty is to allow madmen to carry assault rifles and murder rooms full of six and seven year olds, Steve, it's too high a price."

    More to the point of the gun-free zone:

    If the price of "safety" is to allow madmen to carry assault rifles and murder rooms full of six and seven year olds, "Bill", it's too high a price.

    Why didn't somebody stop him?

  55. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "My parting advice to you is to go get your head examined."

    Then Bill says:

    "Larry, Steve is the aggressor here"

    ???

  56. Dana P. 2012.12.18

    Steve. You aren't answering any of my questions. I gave you several examples where armed AND highly trained folks did not stop or prevent carnage. So again, your justification for arming teachers? Please stay on topic (leave Hitler, Stalin, Planned Parenthood, and abortion clinics out of this - thank you) I'm giving you documented evidence that it didn't help. And I also provided a video to you, to show you how people respond to stress - and how it could go so horribly wrong. You are not responding to my many examples (I have many more, btw)

    Btw, I own guns. I support gun ownership. RESPONSIBLE gun ownership and I support rationale, common sense, gun safety laws. And no, I'm NOT afraid of being disarmed. No one is coming to take my guns.

  57. Taunia 2012.12.18

    Oh, no. Steve should talk and talk and talk. He's exactly what's going to get things changed.

    The moderate Republicans will start talking about how to keep our families and our children safer, while the fundamentalists - Huckabee, Dobson and Sibson - will keep separating themselves out from the crowd. It will be much easier to gain consensus with Steve talking.

    Continue, Steve.

  58. LK 2012.12.18

    I don't know what the good Rev. Hickey saw, but I'm pretty sure the following is an accurate decription of Israeli law.

    "Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year."

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/16/gun-law-in-israel.html

    The second amendment doesn't say anything about ammunition does it?

  59. larry kurtz 2012.12.18

    Guns represent empowerment: assault weapon buybacks might work if a ban actually happens, which I doubt, btw.

    In addition, paying those who have endured bullying to self-identify might be another way since it's linked to nearly every act of gun violence.

    Adding cops is inevitable: legalizing cannabis and ending the 'drug war' would make us all safer.

  60. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "You aren't answering any of my questions. I gave you several examples where armed AND highly trained folks did not stop or prevent carnage. So again, your justification for arming teachers?"

    My response was: are we trying to create an utopian environment? Nothing in this world is perfect, nor will it ever until the return of Jesus Christ. My justification is the 2nd Amendment. My challenge to the gun control crowd is to honest and admit they want to go down the path of totalitarian states like Stalin's and Hitler's as they proceed to amend the Constitution by removing the Second Amendment. Otherwise, it is time to restore the Second Amendment rights to those who work in the government schools. Then, perhaps the next time somebody shoots the windows out of a locked pubic school's door, there will be armed defenders there to protect the children.

  61. Taunia 2012.12.18

    Discovery Channel kicks Ted Nugent to the curb

    "News of Nugent’s fall at Discovery comes the same day that the channel confirmed it is cancelling “American Guns,” a popular reality show that glamorizes a family that produces deadly weapons.
    Raw Story (http://s.tt/1xjGL)

  62. Donald Pay 2012.12.18

    Lanza's mother was armed to the teeth. Those were her guns that were used to kill her. She thought having all this weaponry was going to protect her. They didn't.

    Proposing to have guns in schools is just silly. First, they'd be locked up, so some disaffected student who got a D on a math quiz couldn't overpower a 5'2" female teacher and take the weapon off her. A locked up weapon isn't going to deter anyone.

  63. Ken Santema 2012.12.18

    Going back to the federal law you mention (GFSZA). It would be a good time for the amendment of this law to be brought before the Supreme Court. There are US circuit courts upholding up the amendment. Now would be a good time to bring the gun-free school zone issue to a forefront and get a decision from the top court. Of course I don't think either side wants it to get that far; a loss at the SCOTUS level would be more devastating than the benefits of a win for both sides. And personally I don't think GFSZA does nothing to actually help. Its just another law to make it look like our politicians care.

    At the same time I think those trying to fight against gun regulations need to change their tactic. Instead of going around saying teachers need guns, they need to focus on how more gun regulation would not have prevented situations such as this. Our society has a long history of fighting prohibition. Even if guns were outright banned (which it won't be) there would be a huge black market in guns that would meet demands for these guns.

    That's my 2 cents. Just a couple random thoughts as I sit at home with a sick kid...

  64. Eve Fisher 2012.12.18

    Thank you, Donald, for pointing out the tragically ironic situation of Adam Lanza's mother. Here was an excellent shot, with many legal guns, including a Bushwhacker, Glock, etc. - and what happens? Her kid takes the guns, kills her, and goes off on a massacre. According to Mr. Sibson's standards, she did everything right. But she was killed.

    Second Amendment Rights are - and should be - just as subject to limitation as First Amendment Rights. You do not have the First Amendment Right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater; to slander or libel another person with immunity; nor to commit treason. If you can limit First Amendment Rights to protect the public safety, you can limit Second Amendment Rights to protect the public safety. This is not totalitarianism; this is patriotism, not to mention common sense. And please note that freedom of speech came BEFORE gun ownership in importance to the writers of the Constitution. Gun ownership does not trump every other right and amendment under the Constitution.

  65. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "If you can limit First Amendment Rights to protect the public safety, you can limit Second Amendment Rights to protect the public safety."

    So banning guns in school is the same as yelling "fire" at the movies? Did not work so well now did it? Yes, the mother chose the Second Amendment and is now dead. The school chose to reject the Second Amendment and now 26 are dead.

  66. Ken Santema 2012.12.18

    Steve,

    I don't want any new gun regulation either. All I'm saying is that bringing up reasons to keep guns around that don't directly correlate to the school shooting will not be listened to. I understand why an armed citizenship is important for a free society. However at the same time that debate is separate than dealing with crazy people with guns that go into schools and shooting. Instead of focusing on issues like that we must focus on how prohibition of guns doesn't stop violence.

    For instance at around the same time this tragedy happened in the US, a crazy person in China attacked 22 kids with a knife (doing a lot of damage, luckily no deaths). Over-regulating guns does nothing to actually treat the root cause of the problems in these types of events.

    As a society we must try to find the root cause of these events and find solutions. I say 'as a society' and not 'the government'. The government does nothing but pass laws and regulations that make people feel safe, but in the end actually do nothing to fix the root problems.

  67. David Newquist 2012.12.18

    If this is what the gun debate will look like, get ready for a lot more dead kids. (More than the 8 killed daily by firearms.)

    I think of Proverbs 26; Do not answer fools according to their folly, or you will be a fool yourself.

  68. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    Ken, you are correct, but first we have to get beyond the "gun debate". But unfortunately people like David continue to blame gun rights for an event that happened where there were no gun rights. They push for more anti-Second Amendment laws instead of taking their crusade to the appropriate level...a constitutional amendment removing the Second Amendment. But that would show them to be the radicals that they truly are.

  69. grudznick 2012.12.18

    Mr. Sibson! You sound saner than usual tonight, and I for one am glad of it.

  70. Sam Peil 2012.12.18

    Steve, I'm curious, what do you think Jesus would do in this situation?

  71. Les 2012.12.18

    More than two million poisoned Americans annually.
    .
    32,000 deaths annually in automobile incidents.
    .

    Just more numbers David. It doesn't help with a president wiping tears from his eyes while he helps arm drug cartels and then demands his share of the loot(HSBC) from the laundering of their illegal funds. Whoopee, this is getting fun being prez from the back nine.
    .
    Haven't heard a great deal of sympathy over here on all our dead Mexican brothers and sisters.

  72. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.18

    Used surplus pea-shooters? Come on: if Betty Olson's serious about protecting children, she better be lining up the best weapons, best ammo, and best training money can buy for me and my colleagues. And danger pay.

  73. larry kurtz 2012.12.18

    Friday should be a national day of mourning: no work, no school. Reports of threats off the charts.

  74. Douglas Wiken 2012.12.18

    NY mayor Bloomberg on Charlie Rose brought up a statistic, which if correct, is interesting. He said that a household with a gun in it is 22 times more likely to have an accidental death or murder than it is to be invaded by murderers.

    Another statistic which may not be correct, but if it is, it too is interesting. People carrying guns who are confronted with killers with guns most often never pull the trigger of their own gun.

    Guns are no more the answer to any problem than are poisons in milk.

  75. Les 2012.12.18

    So are you for or against mandatory pasteurization Doug?
    .
    An interesting statistic which if true, if there is a 50/50 chance we can be wrong, then 9 times out of 10 we will be.

  76. Jana 2012.12.18

    Ronald Reagan was an advocate for greater gun control.

    Why do I think that Betty couldn't stomach looking at 6 and 7 year olds whose bodies have been shredded by the gun, the bullets and the mentally ill person that she so wants to defend as a pro lifer.

    What a hypocrite and joke.

    She was probably cheering as Gun Owners of America executive director said that Americans should be ready to use the threat of guns against elected officials.

    Betty...either get re-tethered to earth or resign as an elected leader of South Dakota. You are embarrassing even Fox News entertainers.

    In case you hadn't noticed...America as a whole has rejected your brand of crazy.

    But you stay crazy as the money begins to flee the support of gun manufacturers and scorn grows for the gun nuts who are trying desperately to wash the blood from their hands.

  77. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    So the man-hating feminist Jana shows up saying, get your guns out of my house, to hell with the Constitution of the Untied States. Today is the Age of the goddess.

  78. Steve Sibson 2012.12.18

    "trying desperately to wash the blood from their hands"

    Jana, it is Obama and the rest of you anti-American radicals that are using the blood of those children for political purposes.

  79. larry kurtz 2012.12.18

    Steve: would a ban on some video games abridge the First Amendment?

  80. Dana P. 2012.12.18

    Steve......Steve? seriously? I mean, I can see differences of opinion - admittedly, the Hitler/Stalin references with zero facts is way out there......but seriously? anti-American radicals? wow

  81. Les 2012.12.18

    How old are you DanaP? Have they dropped Stalin and Hitler from 6th grade history in the last few years?
    .
    I don't have a clue as to Sibs reference to them, but why would you need " facts" on either? Their history is well documented unless you are part of the crowd dissing our Jewish brothers and sisters Holocaust experience as untrue.

  82. larry kurtz 2012.12.18

    nice cast, les: really wanna go there?

  83. mike 2012.12.18

    Most of us might not want teachers to need a firearm to protect children but I'm of the opinion that if any of the teachers or administrators had a firearm this tragedy would have been minimized.

    The shooter evidently shot himself on the first sign of first responders. Had someone pulled a gun on him early maybe he would have done that sooner before he could destroy many lives.

    As is all teachers and students are sitting ducks. They should at least be able to act.

  84. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.18

    Bill says above, "No one here besides you is talking about disarming the people, Sibson. We are talking about restricting access to insane people." Given that you have to be crazy to teach in South Dakota for the wages we pay, do you folks really want us teachers carrying guns to school?

  85. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.18

    Donald, indeed, I have enough to do in my classroom without also having to switch on some extra situational awareness to make sure some kid dissatisfied with a grade or a seating assignment doesn't reach for my pistol.

  86. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.18

    LK, Bill: Wow! I would totally accept the Israeli model. One gun, 50 bullets, submit a valid reason for owning that gun. Why not?

  87. Jana 2012.12.18

    Sibby, go to h-e- double hockey sticks. Man hating feminist?!?!

    If you can't handle a member of the opposite sex disagreeing with you then you aren't really much of a person are you. I will not and have never attacked you because of which mix of chromosomes you happen to have been born with. I would strongly suggest you do the same.

    You have done your best to be thought of as a joke and with that earned reputation in mind, please refrain from owning a gun and deciding that your rants, being unheard, need the force of firepower never dreamed of by the Founding Fathers.

    Yep the same Founding Fathers you supposedly worship by twisting their courageous thoughts into inflicting your own diseased dogmatic dementia on us all.

    Guess what Steve...I'm a little passionate about this subject and I am quite tired of suffering fools who display a sick piety to pathetic platitudes.

  88. Jana 2012.12.18

    Mike, every cowboy wants to dream of being the hero and taking out the bad guy.

    Tell us this, how is your aim from 100 feet with a handgun? Have you tested yourself? Under fire? And if you missed the target, who would you have killed? Go to the range tomorrow and line up a target at 100 feet and then put the pictures of those slain children on either side of the target and then get back to us.

    Remember, no taking the time to take a deep breath, brace the gun on a solid platform and slowly squeeze the trigger. There are children screaming and there is a nut with an AR-15 wanting to kill you.

    Do get back to us with how your results were just like in the movies.

    Why would you even think that it is worth arming teachers as opposed to disarming bad guys?

  89. Jana 2012.12.18

    Oh yeah...Mike. It's a moving target.

  90. Jana 2012.12.18

    Sorry kids...we'd like to keep you safe in school, but hey...the NRA tells us what to think...so what are we supposed to do? Make them mad?

    Sheesh...someone could call me a RINO and I'd rather have kids and heroic teachers slaughtered in a school than be called a RINO. I mean that could be deadly to my political career. Oops, did I say deadly?

    Besides, when's the last time a 6 year old gave millions to elect people sympathetic to their views?

  91. mike 2012.12.18

    Jana, The bad guy in Newtown killed his mother and stole her guns. (Those were not his weapons)

  92. mike 2012.12.18

    Jana, Most people who own guns will tell you that 100 feet is not as far of a shot as you think it is. Even you could hit a trash barrel at 100 feet if you spent 5 minutes practicing. (My guess is you could hit it on your first shot)

    And when you factor in real life most of these shooters are probably within 10-20 feet of their victims. Not the impossible shot you think it is.

  93. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.18

    Jana, I fired off a few rounds from a new handgun last winter. I was surprised at how bad my aim was, and I thought I was taking my time and concentrating. I would want a lot of practice for myself and my fellow teachers before letting any of us carry guns in our classrooms.

  94. Jana 2012.12.18

    Mike, Oh well, that's a different story. Sorry kids, we couldn't do anything because it wasn't the killer's guns. It was his mom's so we are just stumped as to what to do to keep you safe.

    Not sure what your point with that was Mike, but my point is why even have an assault weapon available with a huge magazine of deadly bullets on the market. Because the Founding Fathers wanted to make sure that we could defend ourselves against the bad guys after trillions of dollars spent on defense have failed. Oh that's right, they couldn't even imagine a defense budget or police/public safety force like we have today that didn't exist back then.

    Good luck with that.

    Do get back to us on your results with a pistol at 100 feet shooting at a moving target with children that will be hit if you miss. Give us the score and please don;t use real children in your great experiment.

  95. mike 2012.12.18

    It just comes down to Jana's view where we are all helpless and cannot do anything to prevent carnage or protect the innocent around us or we can do something to stop the rampage.

    It's very hard for me to imagine the situation in Newtown would have been worse if the school teachers or administrators had a gun.

    (Your wild west scenarios don't play out well Jana. I don't know anyone who owns a weapon that would act reckless with a firearm. Most of those who own a weapon have been through classes and safety courses and also taken much practice on a range as I have. no one throws lead around like in the movies or in your mind. Gun owners are among the most careful and mindful people in the state. Most hunters are careful to see the view behind their target before they pull the trigger. I can't stress to you enough how thoughtful gun owners are when hunting or shooting.)

  96. mike 2012.12.18

    I completely agree with what Cory said about teachers needing mucho practice before carrying weapons around classes.

    But as for practice Jana would be surprised I think how well she could shoot at 100feet.

  97. mike 2012.12.18

    Jana, you are completely irrational and no nothing of what you speak when it comes to your wild fantasy of what gun owners are like.

  98. mike 2012.12.18

    Cory, when a yough I'd go through 50 rounds minimum over the week in the summer from trap shooting league (each night took about 25 minutes).

    50 rounds is not as much as you might think. It's two boxes of shotgun shells.

  99. Jana 2012.12.18

    Hell, I'll propose that we have Betty Olson...psycho legislator...take that target test.

    Here it is again Betty, you have a pistol and your mission is to hit a moving bad guy with an assault rifle while he is shooting at you and there are innocent children. Wait not just innocent children...but the children who have parents who love them more than anything, grandparents who burst with pride every time they smile. Living breathing children who have the whole world at their feet and years and years of love and laughter ahead of them.

    So Betty, how many children did you hit?

    By the way...those armed security guards we are going to place in every school...what are we going to pay them to make sure that any nutjob can own an assault rifle?

    I know...you are only thinking that having an AR-15 with a 100 round clip to plink at varmints is a God protected right...and it's just a shame that some kids died...but oh well...we all have priorities.

  100. Taunia 2012.12.18

    There you go, Mike. Keep telling people their fears and concerns are irrational. Let me guess how you keep your fears in check. 10? 15? 20? 100 guns? Keep consoling yourself.

    "50 rounds is not as much as you might think." It's only 50 dead kids.

  101. mike 2012.12.18

    All I know is I'm glad you all signed up for the patriot act after 9/11 because as you know it was the only way to stop another terrorist attack from happening in the USA again.

  102. Jana 2012.12.18

    OK Mike...you call it wild west...I call it what you would like to see to make sure that varmint plinking with a 100 round clip AR-15 stays not just readily available, but plentiful.

    Sandy Hook Elementary is not and was not the wild west. It was a real elementary school that ended up with kids who are real dead because some people place the value of having a 100 shot AR-15 readily available as more important than those kids.

    It doesn't matter how I would do, but how about the average recreational marksman that shoots 50 rounds a week at the range would do. It sounds like that's you, so again...how many kids end up dead because you couldn't hit a moving target with a pistol that is shooting back at you?

    Mike, this is a rhetorical question but it sounds like you already have the answer...my guess is that you are just thinking of Clint Eastwood during the shooting contest in Magnum Force.

    Not to wreck the movie for you, but even in make believe movies...the good guy misses and hits an innocent person.

    Again Mike...how many people would you kill if you weren't deadly accurate with a pistol under combat conditions from 100 feet?

    So in your days at the range...how many times did you miss? Whose kid would die because you missed under perfect conditions?

  103. mike 2012.12.18

    http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
    Look at this. 62,000 law abiding citizens in SD have a concealed carry permit.

    Let's focus on what the real problem is in this society.

    And if we are going to start banning guns let's also bring back the Hays Code for Hollywood and put serious restrictions on the video games that can be sold.

    Culture of Violence Act of 2013 - Ban certain guns, ban violent movies, ban access to certain internet sites, ban violent video games.

  104. Jana 2012.12.18

    We all signed up for the Patriot Act?

    That's a little bit of a non-sequitur Mike.

    We are discussing why anyone in their right mind would think arming teachers is more important than taking assault weapons capable of mass killing off the market.

  105. Jana 2012.12.18

    Let me help you Mike and have a little fun at the same time with this little parody of a conversation of a Betty supporter.

    Pa: "Gosh Ma. They want to take away my right to have an Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model AR-15 Assault Rifle."

    "Cuz you never know when we'll have those gosh darn prairie dogs invade what property we have left from Transcanada coming in and taking it all. Shoot Ma, there could be a whole posse of em and what would we do if I didn't have my Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model AR-15 Assault Rifle?"

    "Heck, Ma...that'd be like 'losin' my freedom and liberty and stuff"

    Ma: "You'll shoot your eye out."

  106. mike 2012.12.18

    Jana, I understand your scenario but it is not realistic. We both agree that what happened in Newtown, CT was among the most horrible things that could happen but I don't see why a teacher with a gun makes the situation worse. (I'm not necessarily in favor of teachers having guns in schools - certainly not untrained teachers. I'm just saying there isn't any harm in looking into it).

    You seem to think banning AR 15's will stop people like Lanza. I don't know but he seemed intent on doing this. Even under Diane Fienstein's law AR 15's aren't banned from society. They are only banned from future sales.

    The main focus is that kids need to be safe and the adults we entrust to care for them should be able to protect them if need be. You say having a teacher with a gun makes them less safe. And I say why? An entire classroom was killed without any way of protecting themselves. How are they less safe if the teacher is trained in self defense and able to protect children?

    You can make references to Dirty Harry all you want but that's not a rational comparison.

  107. Jana 2012.12.18

    How about this Mike.

    You pick 10 out of the 62,000 registered shooters in SD and put them in a combat range situation and then get back to us on how many kids had their brains and guts splattered all over the walls.

    Just so you can keep your "freedom and liberty" to have anyone that breathes and doesn't have a felony conviction be able to own a weapon of mass murder...you know, for varmint hunting.

    Next time you go shooting...put a picture of those 20 kids and 6 teachers on either side of your target and tell us how many an expert like you killed under perfect conditions.

    20 six and seven year old kids with their brains and guts splattered everywhere and you want to bring up the Hays Code...seriously Mike? 6 teachers slaughtered trying to defend those kids and you want to somehow equate that to the Hays Code? Seriously?

  108. mike 2012.12.19

    Jana, Why do you keep going back to this scenario? It has nothing to do with reality.

  109. mike 2012.12.19

    Jana, I know you want to use this tragedy to push a political agenda but the real focus should be on mental health in this country and the content we allow to go into the insane's mind.

  110. Jana 2012.12.19

    Mike...you posed this challenge:

    "It just comes down to Jana's view where we are all helpless and cannot do anything to prevent carnage or protect the innocent around us or we can do something to stop the rampage."

    We are not helpless...that's why we are speaking out... and we can protect the innocent and prevent carnage by getting rid of assault weapons.

    Matter of fact, I'm going to be a strict constructionist of the 2nd Amendment and support the right of everyone to own a muzzle loader.

    I would bet that the vast majority of Americans would support that view.

  111. mike 2012.12.19

    If you are in the classroom being shot up and unable to fight back you are helpless.

    I'm always surprised when someone is naive enough to think murderer's care what the laws are.

  112. mike 2012.12.19

    Jana, Here is a scenario for you.

    Lanza doesn't kill himself. Do you support the death penalty in this situation? He did murder 20 children.

    This is a repulsive individual.

  113. Jana 2012.12.19

    No Mike...this isn't a political agenda. It's about too many kids, teachers and innocents that have had their brains and guts splattered everywhere so that some wingnut version of "freedom" and "liberty" is allowed to prevail.

    We might not be easily able to cure the things that make people want to kill, but we can eliminate the easy to access tools that make that delusion a reality.

    Tell us again how getting rid of assault weapons and clips larger than 8 rounds affects your, or anyone else's, 'freedom' and 'liberty.'

  114. Jana 2012.12.19

    Wait for it...Betty will introduce a bill to make being able to "shoot with 100% accuracy under combat conditions" a new requirement to be one of the lowest paid kindergarten teachers in the country.

    She'll probably introduce that as a requirement for all undergrad credits.

    Like I said...we might not be able to stop mental illness...but why vote for it?

  115. mike 2012.12.19

    Jana, Why do law abiding citizens have to forfit rights so you can pretend your gun laws work. They don't. Accept it. Lanza was crazy. If you want to do some good focus on Menatl Health laws. I know you are emotional right now but when you have some time to actually research your opinion and deal with facts you will see that your scenario's and irational thoughts do not make anyone safer. They only make you feel good.

  116. mike 2012.12.19

    Jana, calm down. Watch fewer violent movies and get out and talk to real people in this state who own guns. Ground yourself in reality.

  117. Jana 2012.12.19

    Mike...and yet another non sequitur on the death penalty.

    But no, I wouldn't be for the death penalty.

  118. Jana 2012.12.19

    Mike, we own guns. I'm fairly reality based...and the mass killing at Sandy Hook is not a movie...but you might want to check with Betty.

    Speaking of gun laws that don't work. Tell me what was the outcome of the slaughter of innocents in Australia and the outcome of the laws that were enacted in the 90's.

    I'm sure you will get back to us on that right after you take your little shooting test on hitting a moving target under combat conditions being proof of arming teachers as a solution.

    Good night Mike...it's been interesting.

  119. mike 2012.12.19

    Nite Jana.

  120. mike 2012.12.19

    Also Australia doesn't have our constitution.

  121. Mark 2012.12.19

    A drunk driver killed someone yesterday. Let's take away all the cars. In 2009 10,839 people were killed in alcohol related accidents. If you take away guns, you make those people potential victims. With all the wasted money in government I'm sure they could re-direct some to security. Why not allow qualified teacher carry guns. What happened to the old American do-it-yourselfism? I'm glad I grew up around strong men and women. You limp wristed men turn my stomach. This is a tragedy, but an armed principle or teacher could have done alot. The supreme court case, Castle Rock v. Gonzales, decided that the police are not obligated to protect you. Their obligated to write the report. That means WE are obligated for our own safety. It's high time you act that way!

  122. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "One gun, 50 bullets, submit a valid reason for owning that gun. Why not?"

    Because of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

  123. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "We are discussing why anyone in their right mind would think arming teachers is more important than taking assault weapons capable of mass killing off the market."

    Jana, more die every day in Planned Parenthood's abortion mills than with guns. Military styled firearms are protected by the Second Amendment.

  124. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.19

    No need to ban cars, Mark. Maybe make the training requirements a little stiffer, like in Europe... and make training requirements for gun possession equally tough. Be a do-it-yourselfer... but get some training.

  125. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.19

    And Mark, I'd rather come to school armed with principles than with an armed principal any day.

  126. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.19

    "Amendment" is the key word there, Steve.

  127. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    Again, Steve: would a ban on some video games abridge the First Amendment?

  128. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Right Cory, so stop with the banning crusade. I thought you said Obama was not into banning guns.

    Yes Larry, but we could still put age restrictions on entertainment that contains gratuitous violence, instead of schools like Newtown's that had gaming clubs promoting them.

  129. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "I'd rather come to school armed with principles than with an armed principal any day."

    The Second Amendment says you can't push that belief on the rest of us. If a principle wants to bring a gun to school, then that should be allowed, honored, and after Newtown appreciated.

  130. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    The Second Amendment leads to coveting, Steve: which bible allows that?

  131. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Larry what are you smoking so early in the morning?

  132. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    The First Amendment says i can smoke whatever and whenever i wish, Steve.

  133. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    The Second Amendment deprives children of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness as inscribed in the Declaration, Steve.

  134. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    No it doesn't larry, it protects those rights. Abortions violates those rights.

  135. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    Whether teachers carry in the future will not be decided here at Madville, Steve: thank you for sharing your observations. Think of me in your prayers.

  136. Eve Fisher 2012.12.19

    Oh, having everybody armed is always the answer, except when it isn't. Remember the Fort Hood shooting? 12 killed and 31 wounded? If army soldiers can't stop somebody running around their base... but, of course, they were all dead anyway, so just keep shooting. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

    Oh, and Mr. Sibson, would you please show some respect for the First Amendment and recognize people's right to freedom of religion and speech? I am a Christian, but I find your repeated hammering on anyone who disagrees with you deeply offensive.

  137. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "Oh, and Mr. Sibson, would you please show some respect for the First Amendment and recognize people's right to freedom of religion and speech? I am a Christian, but I find your repeated hammering on anyone who disagrees with you deeply offensive."

    So based on your second sentence, I do not deserve the First Amendment? And can you define "Christian"?

  138. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    I see Pat Powers is knocking this web site. He must be jealous as this thread has nearly 150 comments and his thread on the shooting has about 20 comments. That makes his claim that SDWC is the number 1 South Dakota political web site a false claim and another example of his problems with delusions.

  139. Barry Smith 2012.12.19

    Yea Sibby seems like most of the posts are yours . You really haven't said much more in all these posts that you couldn't have said in just one or two. You remind me of the gospel story when Jesus was admonishing the Pharisees for their prayers of many words. Perhaps you think that by your many words you will be heard?

  140. Eve Fisher 2012.12.19

    The first thing the First Amendment does, Mr. Sibson, is allow freedom of religion - ANY religion. I find your continued assault on other people's religious beliefs - in which you both imply and state that they should not be allowed to practice their beliefs in "your" country - deeply offensive and deeply unconstitutional.
    Re a definition of Christianity - I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and Lord. I also attend a Christian church regularly, and try to do what He tells me to through the gospels.

  141. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Barry, when you are the minority standing up to the majority, you have to respond to more people. I would be sharing my words over at the SDWC, but I don't trust Pat Powers. By the way, I counted my comments and most of the comments are not mine. Over 100 are others.

  142. Eve Fisher 2012.12.19

    Also, Mr. Sibson, have you noticed that when anyone disagrees with you, or suggests you should change, you instantly announce that they are violating your First Amendment rights, but when you insist that anyone else should change, you are speaking absolute truth?

  143. Barry Smith 2012.12.19

    Sibby
    Maybe just maybe it is your compulsion to respond to everything you disagree with, that is the problem. You disagree so much that you become annoying, and when someone is annoying they are not taken seriously. Maybe it is something to ponder because a quick look at allies here and you seem to be a minority of one.

  144. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    Perhaps Sibby comes here instead of going to therapy.

    Perhaps its a good thing.

    Considering how deranged he is, there might be hell to pay if he can't find someone to listen to him.

    Your tolerance of him, Barry and Eve, is commendable.

    Just take care to avoid going down his rabbit hole.

    There be dragons there, me hearties.

  145. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "have you noticed that when anyone disagrees with you, or suggests you should change, you instantly announce that they are violating your First Amendment rights"

    Eve, you were the one that brought up the First Amendment.

    Barry, there is a legislator who is drafting legislation that supports my postion on this issue. He claims that he has support form other legislators and law enforcement. I am not alone on this issue. It is a simple application of the Constitution, something that has been needed long ago. Could have saved all thosed killed in Newtown. Sad that Fleming thinks that is crazy talk. Perhaps you three need to do something about your pointy fingers.

  146. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    No one is suggesting that you are alone at the pinnacle of spectacular stupidity, Sibby. Just that you're the only one doubly-stupid enough to post your empty-headed, knuckle-dragging claptrap here.

  147. Taunia 2012.12.19

    Well-trained, thinking people that are armed don't shoot gunmen. http://tinyurl.com/d2v6o3k

    This whole wild west fantasy and bullshit heroism of shooting the bad guy is ridiculous and advocated for by people who have no serious training, no real objectivity but to be heroes, and have no business having guns.

    Your fear of losing your guns, by god, is probably worse than losing appendages. By god.

  148. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Fleming: the Second Amendment is "empty-headed, knuckle-dragging claptrap". Taunia, so instead we have principles running up to the shooter saying stop stop stop. Well he didn't. Looks like the East could learn some lessons from the west.

  149. Taunia 2012.12.19

    Sibson, you couldn't defend yourself from a swarm of bees and I wouldn't look to you for help in defending my family in any capacity. I do however, consider you a threat to my family's well-being, mentally and physically, with your ignorance.

    You're a blowhard of the biggest kind, and your fantasy world would keep Freud in stitches.

  150. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    The Second Amendment makes sense, Sibby.

    Your delusional interpretation of it, your suggestion that teachers should become militia as part of their job description, and your continuing attempts to blame victims of a tragedy does not.

    Nor do your hyperbolic, irrational religious fanatic rants.

    But do carry on.

    You provide us all a metric against which to measure our own personal mental state of wellbeing.

  151. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "your suggestion that teachers should become militia as part of their job description"

    That is a lie. I never said "should", my position is they "could" based on their Second Amendment rights, which you clearly are against.

    If you are not a liar, then you are the one that is delusional. Or are you purposesly making up lies to paint me as delusional? Which one is it Bill. Obviously it is fueling Taunia's fantasy world. She still things it is perfectly sane to have principles running up to maniacs with AR-15s thinking that will stop him, and that instead, the idea of shooting him is a crazy idea. That is what the police would have done. In Taunia's fantasy world, the police must be all a bunch of nut cases too.

  152. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Follow up question for Bill, Taunia, and anybody else:
    What would the time difference been between the principle, who could have shot the maniac, versus the time the police showed up. I think the news reports said about 10 minutes. And that difference means 26 dead, including 20 children. The failure had to do with the gun-free zone, which I argue is a violation of the Second Amendment, and so is the banning of AR-15s.

    Who is ready to remove the Second Amendment and completely turn America into a totalitarian state?

  153. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    From Fleming's link:

    "The intensity of the rhetoric underscores how quickly discussions of the religious underpinnings of tragedy can turn heated. Little noticed among Huckabee's critics is that he didn't say God turned his back on Newtown; he expressly said God was there in the good works people were doing."

    And that is what Fleming is doing on this thread...completely distorting my position in order to paint me as some religious nut case. You done that several times yesterday and now today Fleming. Is banning guns really that important to you? That you would use the blood spilled from those children and lies to justify banning guns, despite the law of the land as stated by the Second Amendment?

  154. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    I haven't advocated banning guns. I have advocated for common sense gun laws. You are the biggest liar on this thread, Sibby. You just can't see it. That's because you are pathological. Get help. Today.

  155. Les 2012.12.19

    I've always had issue with those who compare their performance with others to determine their own state of affairs or state of mind.
    .
    The attacks on personal character in this post reveal a morbid lack of sense.
    .
    Tell those folks who defended their property from the LA mob, that assault rifles have no place in our society.
    I do worry about the mentally ill being armed, but drugged adults took my grand nieces life and when I said all meth dealers should be shot on sight or hung, my liberal friends thought I was plum crazy. This crap happens daily, why no emotion here?
    .
    There is an illusion that buying a nice car wrecked and fixing it up is easier because it only costs you a finger at a time instead of all five and somehow those single fingers lost in a year are not as valuable as all five lost at once.

  156. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "I haven't advocated banning guns. I have advocated for common sense gun laws. "

    Banning ar-15s is banning guns, because AR-15s are guns. Simple logic Bill. The "common sense gun laws" phrase is a lie made by politicians for politicians.

  157. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    People are fed up with the bullshit, Les.

    You and Steve come on here and call us all communists and Nazis, tell us were Anti-American and and anti- constitution. And then have the audacity to even think of blaming this recent Newtown tragedy on the victims, the nedia and the government.

    What do you expect? A warm hug?

    No one in their right mind wants to put up with that level of idiocy.

    Never did, but especially not now.

  158. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Bill Fleming said this at the SDWC:

    "Or maybe it’s a *gasp* Sibby virus. He gets to post over there you know. He says it’s because “he trusts us.”"

    Another lie by Fleming. I didn't say I trusted you, I said I didn't trust Pat Powers.

  159. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    I want to keep assault rifles out of insane people's hands, Sibson.

    So would anyone running a well-regulated militia.

  160. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    Ok, okay, good. Glad we got that cleared up. I don't trust you either, Sibby. You are a pathological liar.

  161. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    No more from me today, Les and Sibson. I'm done talking with either one of you.

  162. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    "I want to keep assault rifles out of insane people's hands, Sibson."

    And because you think I am mentally ill, that would mean you would ban me from having an assault rifle. And I didn't say I did not trust you. Bill, you really do have a tough time comprehending. So maybe it is best you leave the conversation.

  163. mike 2012.12.19

    I stopped in a gun shop yesterday and the guys said AR 15's are flying off the shelf because everyone is afraid of a gun ban. Gun shops want more to sell but can't get them in because they can't be made fast enough.

    And do you know what? Those are good honest hard working Americans who will never break a single law who are buying those rifles. They are setting them up to shoot coyotes.

  164. Steve Sibson 2012.12.19

    Yes Bill, men are the problem. We should abort all males before they are born right? Ever think this is the result of abandoning the Biblical patriarchy and pushing the feminists matriarchy?

  165. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    Bill's done with you for today, Steve: your nards are within easy range. Meet me at the bottom of the Mitchell ramp of your choosing in four hours.

  166. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    I'd offer to go find yours, Les but they're clearly atrophied from lack of use if you can still see them at all.

  167. Tim Higgins 2012.12.19

    I don't believe the answer to violence is escalation. Having an armed teaching force ready to repel any incursion is not dissuasive to someone (especially someone mentally ill) who is intent to do harm.

    Then why did the gun man put the gun to his own head as soon a law enforcement arrived??

  168. Tim Higgins 2012.12.19

    Were all of the anti-gun posters here equally outraged with the fast and furious program? Our government under Obama gave access of over 2000 weapons including what many of you wrongfully describe as an assult rifle, that killed hundreds if not thousands of Mexican citizens and a US boarder patrol agent. Were you outraged then?

  169. Bill Fleming 2012.12.19

    Tim:

    1. (Perhaps) as a final act of control and defiance.
    The best answer is, nobody knows, including you.

    2. Yes. Equally outraged.

  170. grudznick 2012.12.19

    The Dawes Act is recognized as doing a lot of good for various tribes by most scholars.

  171. larry kurtz 2012.12.19

    tweets of briefs being filed against arms manufacturers are mounting. job creation and lawyers: is this a great country or what?

  172. Owen Reitzel 2012.12.19

    "I stopped in a gun shop yesterday and the guys said AR 15's are flying off the shelf because everyone is afraid of a gun ban. Gun shops want more to sell but can't get them in because they can't be made fast enough.

    And do you know what? Those are good honest hard working Americans who will never break a single law who are buying those rifles. They are setting them up to shoot coyotes."

    Are you sure Mike?

  173. Charlie Hoffman 2012.12.19

    An interesting tidbit which few will find on the blogs or drive by media covers the seconds before the Oregon Mall Shooter took his own life. According to police reports a man armed with a permit to carry concealed also carrying a concealed weapon drew upon the shooter; whereupon he ran into a hallway and committed suicide.

  174. Charlie Hoffman 2012.12.19

    Here are some facts:

    Concealed Carry Weapon Laws & College Campuses

    In the United States, 49 out of 50 states have concealed carry weapons laws. Currently, there are 21 states that ban carrying a concealed weapon on a college campus: Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming.

    In 23 states the decision to ban or allow concealed carry weapons on campuses is made by each college or university individually: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, and West Virginia.

    Due to recent state legislation and court rulings, 5 states now have provisions allowing the carrying of concealed weapons on public postsecondary campuses. These states are Colorado, Mississippi, Oregon, Utah, and Wisconsin.

    Utah remains the only state to have statute specifically naming public colleges and universities as public entities that do not have the authority to ban concealed carry, and thus, all 10 public institutions in Utah allow concealed weapons on their property. Recently passed Wisconsin legislation creates a provision that colleges and universities must allow concealed carry on campus grounds, however, campuses can prohibit weapons from campus buildings if signs are posted at every entrance explicitly stating that weapons are prohibited. All University of Wisconsin system campuses and technical community college districts are said to be putting this signage in place. Legislation passed in Mississippi in 2011 creates an exception to allow concealed carry on college campuses for those who have taken a voluntary course on safe handling and use of firearms by a certified instructor.

    Recent court cases have also overturned some long standing system wide bans of concealed carry on state college and university campuses. In March 2012, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled that the University of Colorado’s policy banning guns from campus violates the state’s concealed carry law, and in 2011 the Oregon Court of Appeals overturned the Oregon University System’s ban of guns on campuses, allowing those with permits to carry concealed guns on the grounds of these public colleges. In both cases, it was ruled that state law dictates only the legislature can regulate the use, sale and possession of firearms, and therefore these systems had overstepped their authority in issuing the bans.

  175. Sam Peil 2012.12.19

    Charlie, regarding the shooter in the Oregon mall attack, it doesn't seem clear that he saw Nick Meli pull his gun. Meli didn't shoot because he knew that he might hit an innocent bystander. From his interview, it sounds like Meli fled before the shooter committed suicide. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

    I do find it interesting that Meli is not mentioned in most of the news stories about the shooting.

  176. Sam Peil 2012.12.19

    Charlie, What are your thoughts regarding school personnel bring guns into our SD schools as proposed by Betty Olson?

  177. Charlie Hoffman 2012.12.19

    Sam, This is the most interesting part of the discussion concerning gun ownership and I offer conjecture concerning flight or fight mentality. The mental state of anyone who would be considered totally insane notwithstanding. Should a law allowing certain but particular unknown persons to carry in many situations will normally dissuade a mentally unstable person from committing a random act of violence solely by reason of the opportunity of unknown quantities of retribution of equal pain and harm. That said few who are stable minded ever enter a guarded facility with guns drawn yet we know that those with terroristic plans subvert every safeguard occasionally to commit horrendous atrocities.
    I look forward to seeing Representative Betty Olson's bill.

  178. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.19

    Charlie, I want immunity from prosecution and liability written into Olson's bill, or Craig's bill, or any other such nuttiness that allows teachers to carry guns in school.

  179. Tim Higgins 2012.12.20

    An interesting tidbit which few will find on the blogs or drive by media covers the seconds before the Oregon Mall Shooter took his own life. According to police reports a man armed with a permit to carry concealed also carrying a concealed weapon drew upon the shooter; whereupon he ran into a hallway and committed suicide.

    Charlie, the gun grabbers totally ignore this kind of information or spin so it looks like this is a once in 10 million occurance. About the time of the shooting in the movie theater in Colorado, an internet cafe was held up in Florida. A senior citizen with a concealed weapon and permit shot both intruders and no innocent person in the cafe was harmed. I posted a link on Madville to this story and it only received one comment, from Corey.

  180. larry kurtz 2012.12.20

    Well, gangbangers carrying for protection must all be right then, huh Tim?

  181. Steve Sibson 2012.12.20

    "such nuttiness that allows teachers to carry guns in school"

    Unarmed principles running up to an armed maniac who just shot out the glass to a locked door is not nutty? Unarming a nation so that a totalitarian state can be fully implemented is not nutty? The authors of the Second Amendment and those who voted for it are the nutty ones?

  182. larry kurtz 2012.12.20

    South Dakota already is a totalitarian state, Steve: your side won.

  183. larry kurtz 2012.12.20

    Barricading ourselves in our homes is the new normal: whoopee.

  184. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.12.20

    Tim, Charlie posted that story, and Sam responded to it pretty effectively.

  185. Steve Sibson 2012.12.20

    "Sam responded to it pretty effectively"

    Unlike the principle at Newtown. Not all her fault. It is all of our fault for allowing the Constitution to be ignored and create these gun-free zones where kids learn to kill each other aided by computer simulations in their game clubs. The next step by the irrational left: ban guns worldwide and create a worldwide totalitarian rule. In other words...the Beast of Revelation...Jesus and his White Throne can't be far behind, the only solution to evil such as we saw acted out in Newtown.

  186. larry kurtz 2012.12.20

    Wouldn't this be a great time for a piece of rhubarb pie?

  187. Steve Sibson 2012.12.20

    Larry, at the end of the day there is only two sides. Either you are in the Book of Life or you are not. Enjoy your pie.

  188. larry kurtz 2012.12.20

    Bake a man a pie and he'll learn to divide by seven. Teach a man piety and he'll crucify the apples and say they died for his sins.

  189. Dougal 2012.12.20

    This video is the face of today’s American gun culture. Ted Nugent best embodies what is sick, extreme and wrong about the gun mania attitude that has become far too common:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNLmi0_216g&feature=player_embedded

    And you can see here that the Discovery Channel has finally come its senses about Nugent:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ted-nugent-wont-be-back-on-discovery-channel-20121219

    I agree that the cure to this sickness and the public’s tolerance of this sickness requires much more than banning assault weaponry. However, the ban must be the first step or no change will occur. And the American people must remain engaged in this national effort to eliminate our nation’s unique violent culture. The Wild West ended a long time ago, and the truth is we must all work hard and work together to be able to live together.

    Those who say we need laws to arm teachers, janitors and school administrators are extremely wrong, as are the fundamentalist radio nabobs saying the cure for school shootings is prayer in school, not gun control. These people are despicable frauds who are incapable of realizing the depth of tragedy brought by these gun massacres. Prayers are not a substitute for actions and more guns in the equation in our schools only makes things worse.

  190. Steve Sibson 2012.12.20

    Dougal, you fogot one important point:

    Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 (Translated to English)

    Classified guns for "sporting purposes".
    All citizens who wished to purchase firearms had to register with the Nazi officials and have a background check.
    Presumed German citizens were hostile and thereby exempted Nazis from the gun control law.
    Gave Nazis unrestricted power to decide what kinds of firearms could, or could not be owned by private persons.
    The types of ammunition that were legal were subject to control by bureaucrats.
    Juveniles under 18 years could not buy firearms and ammunition.

    Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

    http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id14.html

    James Madison, the “father of the Constitution,” stated that tyrants were “afraid to trust the people with arms” and lauded “the advantage of being armed, which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.”

    Vladimir Lenin said, “One man with a gun can control 100 without one.”

    Mao Zedong said, “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”

    Josef Stalin said: “We don’t let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?”

    Adolf Hitler said: “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.”

    http://www.wnd.com/2008/07/68603/#QKiYcwQgSHEr6bqz.99

  191. Dougal 2012.12.20

    I forgot about Hitler! Damn! He still alive?

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