Last updated on 2014.08.01
Our neighbors on the Miller School Board are busy mingling church and state:
After the preliminaries of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and approving the meeting’s agenda, minutes from the March 10 and March 24 board meetings, monthly financial report and bills presented for payment, the board recognized Larry Nickelson as a visitor to the meeting. Nickelson presented a request to distribute Gideon Bibles to the fifth graders, which the board granted ["Amy Johnson to Fill Elementary Principal Position," Miller Press, 2014.04.22].
The Miller School Board apparently lets the Gideons come proselytize at school every year. To test your comfort level with this public-school proselytizing, rewrite this news story: place it in your town, replace Nickelson with Farrakhan, replace Gideon Bibles with Korans, and replace fifth graders with your children. Or try it with Cory Heidelberger and atheist tracts.
Or just read what the courts say about the illegality of distributing religious materials at public schools:
Courts uniformly have held the distribution of bibles to students at public schools during instructional time is prohibited. This means that Gideons cannot be present inside your child's classroom or on public school grounds to distribute bibles. Public school officials—including principals and teachers—cannot hand out bibles or otherwise facilitate the distribution of bibles.
Courts have determined that allowing bible distribution at public schools—especially to elementary students who cannot make the distinction between private religious speech and state-sponsored speech—is unconstitutional not only because it appears to be government endorsement of Christianity, but also because of the social pressures students feel to accept the bibles. Moreover, these practices infringe parents' rights to direct the religious, or non-religious, upbringing of their own children.
In one of the leading federal court decisions on this topic, Berger v. Rensselaer Central Sch. Corp., 982 F.2d 1160 (7th Cir. 1993), the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, which encompasses Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana, held that classroom distribution of Gideon bibles to fifth-graders violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In striking down the school district's policy permitting Gideons to distribute bibles at the schools, the court stated, “. . . the Gideon Bible is unabashedly Christian. In permitting distribution of ‘The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ’ along with limited excerpts from the Old Testament, the schools affront not only non-religious people but all those whose faiths, or lack of faith, does not encompass the New Testament.” It is significant that the U.S. Supreme Court let stand this decision, just as it let stand Tudor v. Board of Education of Rutherford, 14 J.N. 31 (1953), cert. denied 348 U.S. 816 (1954) four decades earlier. The law is clear.
Courts have almost unanimously agreed that distribution of bibles in elementary schools—either actively or passively—is unconstitutional because young elementary school children are considered too impressionable to make the distinction between private religious speech and school-sponsored speech ["State/Church FAQ: Bible Distribution in Public Schools," Freedom from Religion Foundation, downloaded 2014.05.03].
Parents interested in protecting their children from unwanted state intrusion on their religious instruction won't tolerate my standing at the front of a classroom and telling kids God doesn't exist. They should not tolerate Gideons exploiting that same captive audience to hand out books selling the opposite religious message.
It continues to amaze me how some elected officials continue to push the boundaries in our governments separation of church and state. It opens up a minefield of legal challenges and issues. Look at Oklahoma when they put a 10 commandments monument on state capitol grounds and now Satanists want to put up their own monument http://abcnews.go.com/US/satanist-statue-nearing-completion/story?id=23562440 along with nearly every other faith including a Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster monument. Do we really want to go there?
I would think it's only a matter of time before the Miller School District would face a legal challenge.
Satanists were denied their own monument,this happened sometime last fall,I believe. Actually some gubmint official denied them their monument,the courts will have to decide in time. In the bible belt states,I'm guessing the vote will be in the lord's(christian) favor. iowa wingnut pols are getting weirder,too.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/iowa-gop-senate-candidates-vow-block-judges-who-wont-follow-biblical-law
wingnut candidates trying to out christian each other.
Mike from Iowa I read that and now the taxpayers of Oklahoma are footing the bill for lawsuits that should never should of happened.
I was raised Catholic and grades K-4 I attended public school but outside of school I went to CCD with other Catholics that attended public school to learn more about our faith. Grades 5-12 my parents went a step further and sent me thru the local Catholic School System.
I really believe in a clear separation of church and state and passing out bibles to students at a public school not only crosses the line but opens up a can of worms.
I wonder why parents would want someone pushing bibles on their kids in public school. It seems to me there must be some parents there, and anywhere, who would question why their kids are bringing home bibles from school.
But they can force unwanted vaccinations and chemo on our children.
.
I'd say the Gideon's should stand on the sidewalk and offer a bible.
Well folks, as wrong as what Cory is describing may be, I have less problem with that than with the situation that I encountered and went and spoke to the Sioux Falls School board this past Monday. A few weeks ago, as I rode the bus to go to coffee with my buddies, a boy (not a young man) got on the bus dressed in desert camouflage fatigues, boots and cap. When we got to the central bus point in downtown SF, I ran after him and asked if he was in the National Guard. He said no he was in the Marines. I asked how old are you, he said 14, (the same age as my oldest grandson in the TC). He then clarified that he was in the Marines Jr ROTC. About that time another boy got off another bus, and soon a third all dressed the same way.
I was aware that under No Child Left Behind, that the military recruiters have access to our youth (a full list of names addresses an phone numbers) when they are in high school unless the parents ask that their child's name be removed from the list. Two now deceased veteran friends of mine one from WWII and one from Viet Nam, had spoken to the school district back when that law came into being to make sure that the school district was following that rule. I had moved to Sisseton at the time and had talked to the Superintendent and Principal and they had agreed to make sure the parents were aware of that option.
When I spoke to the school board I wanted to make sure that they were aware that they still needed to be following that rule. I also pointed out that although I am 72, I remember what the kids, whom the other kids emulate looked and acted like when I was in school and that these three boys were that type and would be the ones that the recruiters would use to get even more recruits, hence the reason for the cool looking uniforms.
I explained to the board that I am a veteran who enlisted into the Army during the Berlin Crisis and just prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis and so I believe in service but at an age when a person is able to make and informed decision, not at such an impressionable age and at a time when our government and military seems to want to keep loading the cannon fodder for current and future wars.
I also told them about my shock at seeing that the SF Highschools have shooting ranges on school grounds to allow the JR ROTC students to compete for scholarships based on their shooting ability.
Two days after I spoke to the board, the same boys got on the bus wearing jungle camouflage uniforms. These recruiters are using the program with the cool uniforms to recruit more and more of our impressionable youth. The militarization of our youth continues and their is not much that we as citizens can do about it unless we demand that these policies be changed.
Good story Cory. O:-) It looks to me that the Miller School Board has violated (as Jack McCoy said on "Law and Order") black letter law.
The report sounded pretty routine. I wonder how long that has been going on.
Things like this, and Hickey's attempts to legalize his personal sexual issues, are really about ineffective churches. If they were doing their jobs, they wouldn't need to be trying to coerce schools and governments to do it for them. Rather than trying to force everyone to behave according to their wishes, churches that hold such beliefs need to get to work prosletyzing, convincing individuals to behave as they wish. And they need to begin within the walls of their own buildings.
In the Gospels Jesus and the gang did not Force anyone to be a follower. Well, slaves, concubines and servants were not given a choice. The rich simply ordered their entire households baptized.
So where do people like Hickey see those of us, millions of us in the USA, who disagree with these attempts to subvert Christianity by forcing citizens to become followers at least. Are we servants, slaves or concubines?
Are they going to start teaching math and chemistry in Sunday school? Fercryinoutloud, if you want your kid to be brought up with the bible, go for it, but public school is just that, PUBLIC! Send your kid to private school if it's so important. My tax dollars should NOT be paying for your belief system, Christian, Buddhist, Druid, ...
I'd be willing to bet that most small SD schools also have the children sing "God Bless America" and such at school events.
Lanny—militarization of the youth? Interesting! The young men with the uniforms are actual recruits in the program, right? I can see how their display of their uniforms makes for a very effective recruiting tool among the impressionable youth. Is there any sign that the district is not respecting opt-out requests?
Bryce, I like God Bless America and the Star-Spangled Banner. Interesting, now that I think about it, that the national Anthem doesn't get around to God talk until the middle of the fourth and final verse that we never sing:
"Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'"
God Bless America is more explicitly a prayer ("As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer," says that opening verse we usually skip). Interestingly, historian Sheryl Kaskowitz notes that the song was FDR's campaign song in 1940. The song's cultural significance has changed since then:
"When FDR adopted 'God Bless America' as his 1940 campaign song, it represented an embrace of cultural and religious tolerance; by 1980, the Christian Right used the song to signal an incorporation of faith and values into politics. At a 1984 meeting of religious broadcasters at which Reagan appeared, attendees 'virtually serenaded' the president with 'God Bless America,' and the singer and conservative icon Pat Boone boomed through the microphone, 'How wonderful to have a President who believes these words.' The words may have remained the same, but the meaning of 'God Bless America' has drifted rightward over the course of the twentieth century" [Sheryl Kaskowitz, "Through the Night with a Light from the Right," Slate, 2013.07.04].
I like singing both songs, but I need to pause at requiring or even promoting both in schools, since, while culturally significant, they both promote the false assumption that everyone singing believes in God... or should believe... or isn't fully American if he or she doesn't believe.
Wasn't that "In god we Tryst"for some religious schools?
I blame Jethro Tull for openly advocating Gideon's bible in the song "Locomotive Breath". Bad Jethro,bad! Great song,BTW. :)
Rocky Raccoon stepped into his room only to find Gideon's Bible. http://vimeo.com/34995640
Her name was Mcgill, and she called herself Lil, but everyone knew her as Nancy. Come on Rocky Boy, life is such a parody on nonsense like this.
I appreciate your thought game of replacing Bible with another and the group with another; very Veil of Ignorance of you. I have always had problems with people getting upset the singing of Christian songs during Christmas. I would encourage the school to sing a Christian song, a Jewish hymn, and a Beatles song to cover your bases.
God Bless America...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NFjaVkLJjY&list=PLCvVBOK6lIHu0JpTj6jT3kKVZvFXU2VjK
Cue to 1:11:00
Webster Area Students at the Girls State A Tournament
Seems like I start hearing-seeing christmas themes and movies starting around August and lasting until the following Jan or Feb. Remember, only 365 shopping days from X-mas 2014 until X-mas 2015(including weekends and holidays). Shop early and often or you don't love your kids and god.
I would slap these people upside the noggin' with their thick, softly bound book. WHACK.
I mean the school board.
Relax... The pages of Gideon Bibles are great for rolling your own!
Christmas songs—you know, as a tenor who found arrangements of the Latin Mass some of the most powerful music in our choral repertoire, I'm not as bothered by such performances as I am by the distribution of Bibles.
The Veil of Ignorance is a very useful philosophical tool.
Gideons have been distributing New Testaments in schools for decades. It is done by very decent men who do not proselytize and only offer the material. No one has to take it. There has NEVER been a problem with this in the past so that ought to serve as some sort of president as with the recent Supreme Court decision on prayer at public meetings. Locally elected school boards who represent the population at large have control over this. By insisting this activity does not take place, does that not ultimately serve the atheist agenda. You see there is no escaping religion. There is no neutral ground. Someone always wins. See Pascal's wager. We're all in this and on one side or the other.
So do I support this? Yes. Would I support atheist or muslim distributions? No. I just don't see any middle ground other than making acceptance of the material voluntary which it is and always has been. If there was a large enough parental outcry against this from parents whose kids actually attend the school district in question only then I would say fine don't do do it. However I suspect that is not the case so just calm down.
On a side note, not to get personal but I do not know and am curious as to the position of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) on the issue of Gideons distributing New Testaments. Thanks.
Aaron, on what legal grounds can you support distributing Christian materials to an audience of captive children but not support distributing atheist or Muslim materials?
There is a middle ground: no distribution of religious or atheist tracts on school grounds by any outside groups. That position does not support atheists. It says, "We're in school. Save your religious fights for Sunday (or Saturday, or whatever your Sabbath may be)."
Side note: I'm not a member of the ELCA. I don't know what their position is on the Gideons. But if the ELCA tries distributing Bibles in a public school, I'll oppose them, too, as I will oppose similar efforts by Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, or atheists.
Idaho banned Sherman Alexie's book The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian http://www.amazon.com/Absolutely-True-Diary-Part-Time-Indian/dp/0316013692 and people were harassed for handing it out free.
Christofascism is just another word for nothing left to lose.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/04/25/3153623/author-of-controversial-part-time.html
the gideons are practicing the equivalent of smoking joints on the lawn of the Capitol in Pierre: civil disobedience is only tolerated for white, christian men.
http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/aclu-protests-distribution-of-bibles-at-south-dakota-school/article_7348a8c5-d452-5094-874d-3a3979ad25b3.html
http://christiannews.net/2013/07/16/christian-legal-group-combats-aclu-attempt-to-end-bible-distribution-in-kentucky-schools/
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KYGideonBibleLetter.pdf
Been any complaints about the Gideons from actual people in Miller yet?
If there aren't there should be.
http://www.aclusd.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=387&Itemid=184
A good question, Aaron. If no one complains, does that make it Constitutional?
Well I dunno, some legal minds think so as I’ve highlighted. I’m inclined to agree but of course I admit I do have a bias. I’m not a legal mind but I don’t see the difference between voluntary acceptance of Gideon pocket Bibles and the religious Christmas carols you say are fine. The sole source of inspiration for the lyrics of these songs is the gospel stories of the Bible after all. As for whether it takes complaints to make a constitutional case, if I were a financial supporter of the ACLU (which obviously I am not) I would at least want to see them devote their resources to cases where there are genuinely disaffected people in regards to their first amendment rights. Going all the way out to Miller, SD where no complaints are apparent as of yet makes me wonder if they have true zeal for the first amendment or other motives where they can advance the case of their might is what makes right.
Christmas music and Gideon bibles? Big difference. When I sang Schubert's Mass in G in high school choir ("Lord have mercy... glory in the highest to God... you alone are the Lord..."), my choir director was not saying to us, "Children, you should all believe in God." Her intent was to allow us to study and perform a masterpiece of Western choral music. When the Gideons hand out Bibles, they are carrying out their stated mission to proselytize. Intent matters.
Imagine the KKK handing out copies of Mein Kampf to school kids.
Ha ha ha. Of course intent matters. Is the intent of the law to have no God or atheism in public squares? I think it goes without saying we all have some intent in our actions. For about 1700 years Western Civilization was inseparably Christian. The endorsement of one with the singing of songs explicitly implies whether you want it to or not support for the other. You can’t say the same thing when it comes to Islam, humanism or anything else one wants to conjure up. As a whole the Gideons are respected members of our own small communities and only trying to spread the good news as their conscience drives them to do. (This is my interpretation as I am not speaking on their behalf) You could say the same thing about other groups but where is their presence in the local community? They have popular support and are not forcing or even mildly pressuring people to do anything. Here’s a pocket book, take one if you want. Most likely it will only sit until it disintegrates. Last I checked there were no mosques, humanist societies or klans located in Hand County. Leave them alone or if you wish, mail them a Dawkins or Hitchens book for the library so it can do the same. And relax, all the biology textbooks still have chapters on evolution. You’re making great strides. What are you really afraid of?
I am really afraid of exactly what I said I fear: people, even good-intentioned, well-respected people, violating the Constitution. I'm not trying to make strides in stamping out religion. (Remember, I'm married to a soon-to-be pastor, and my child goes to Sunday school.)
If the HS choir director says, "Let's sing Mass in G, because it's beautiful and challenging music," I say, "Cool!" If some really nice gent comes to the school and says, "I'm trying to turn children into Christians/Muslims/atheists; may I hand out these tracts to your students to support that effort?" I say, "No way," even if everyone else in town thinks that's a fine idea.
Consider: public/majority support is irrelevant to the legal/constitutional question at hand. The Miller School District's policy opens the door to any religious proselytizing group to peddle its wares to its children. I assume I could go to Miller and demand equal treatment for an atheist screed. Jihadists could go hand out recruitment flyers for Boko Haram. If Miller doesn't want that, they can't grant favored status to the Gideons.
Hutterites next Cory?
I'm more interested in asking the Hutterites who circulated those petitions for Bosworth while she and Chad were in the Philippines. But if the Hutterites come proselytizing on the public dime, I'll have words for them, too.
Straighten out Miller, Hutterites next?
When I was in public school (that was a LONG time ago!) the Gideons would leave their books in the school office, but not directly distribute them to a particular class. You could take them if you wanted them. I think this seems more constitutional, as there was an English copy of the Koran, the Bible and the Book of Mormon on the library shelves, always available for checkout.
I still think you’re trying to have it both ways with the carols and the distributions. Perhaps I only want to distribute the Proverbs because of the useful advice on living life. While you say the carols are okay because you don’t see the endorsement, another well intentioned individual like yourself may come along and say, “you can’t have the carols either.” Obviously we’re not going to convince each other on our positions. However, when it gets to the point where jihadists think they can openly recruit in the Miller school district we’re all going to be long past screwed in a major way no matter anybody’s position and that Gideon Bible tucked away in a closet somewhere may be the only chance one has.
Keep in mind, they are not giving a sermon. I received a Gideon pocket Bible in grade school and at the time I don’t remember them saying anything. They are non-denominational and not associated with any church body. NO ONE’s first amendment rights are being trampled here. Meanwhile at a public university I do specifically remember professors commenting on how the Bible and other religious books were useless for any intelligent person. College kids aren't captive and impressionable as well? Perhaps evolution should not be taught in high school biology class because it ultimately seeks to undermine some religious beliefs while proselytizing for the belief of those who have none but are quite religious about that.
I enjoyed our debate here but time is limited so this will have to be my last posting on the subject. Thank you for providing an open forum. I cede the last word to you.
No, Aaron, I'm not trying to have it both ways. I've given you a very clear distinction in intent between my choir director and the Gideons. We aren't talking about a do-gooder asking to distribute Proverbs as a self-help pamphlet; we are talking about religious proselytizers. (Frankly, as a school board, I'd hesitate to let someone come distribute copies of Dr. Phil's latest book, too.)
You bail on the jihadist point: I'm trying to prevent jihadists from getting a policy leg up. My position allows us to say no to jihadists now. Miller's position invites the jihadists in to take advantage of a captive audience.
Your profs who denigrated your religion may well have been violating your First Amendment rights. I'd want to see direct qotes and context, but given the statement you offer, they were abusing their public position to promote their specific religious belief (or non-belief). The proper response is not to send the Gideons into your classroom to further trample the First Amendment. The proper response is to upbraid the profs and teach them some restraint.
Evolution does not inherently seek to undermine religion. There is room in the universe for Darwin and Jesus.
The teabagger who just won the Nebraska earth hater Senate nomination puts his beliefs over the rule of law, too.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/05/14/3437587/nebraska-sasse-absolute-religious-liberty/
You concluded by saying:
"Parents interested in protecting their children from unwanted state intrusion on their religious instruction won't tolerate my standing at the front of a classroom and telling kids God doesn't exist."
But that essentially is being done when teachers teach that man evolved from apes in evolution. Or deny intelligent design to be taught. Parents are upset that this is being taught to their kids and not any alternative view is allowed to be presented. Evolution is put forth as SETTLED and is not open for debate. So then if you want to be fair and just in your approach, the parents who are outraged at the free distribution of bibles should be allowed to opt their child out of the program, and parents who feel that their child should be instructed in biblical creationism or intelligent design should be allowed to have their child opt into a program that teaches that. Isn't that what education is supposed to be about, offering a child a WELL-ROUNDED education. Balanced and not biased? It seems to me the only view opponents want taught does not include any mention of a creator of all things. And therefore those who happen to believe there is a creator of all things are excluded and their views are ignored.
Getting back to your argument you then said:
"They should not tolerate Gideons exploiting that same captive audience to hand out books selling the opposite religious message." but again if a Christian parents objects to Darwinism being taught as fact to a captive audience easily persuaded their views are considered extreme. Or if opponents of global warming, climate change, or now climate disruption take offense to their child being indoctrinated with this propaganda they are told that it is settled science even though there are renowned scientists who oppose the theory. WHY can't both be taught?
It would appear that opponents of Christian thought do not want to engage in any debate that offers alternative viewpoints. Those who espouse a Christian worldview are not afraid of opposing opinions as long as both sides are represented fairly and accurately.
Both sides: christianity and everything else? Imagine American Indians handing out Sherman Alexie's book for free outside of a South Dakota school.
The bible is filled with violence, sex and hell on earth: obscene by every definition outside the christian world.
Good grief Allan Scott, no science teacher is telling kids humans evolved from apes, your claiming such just proves your ignorance when it comes to evolution. Apes and humans shared a common ancestor millions of years ago but neither evolved from the other. We are distant cousins not descendents of each other.
What Nick said, Allen. Plus, Allen, you're imposing your anti-science bias on science, which does not say what you say. Not one scientific discovery says, "There is no God." No matter what facts I may lay out about genetic mutations, photosynthesis, star formation, what have you, you always have room to say, "Yet God exists! God made that happen!" There is no inherent battle between science and religion. You're trying to make an excuse for turning public classrooms into auxiliary Sunday Schools. Is Sunday not enough? Is your church not enough? Is not majority status for your theism enough? Must you have your Gospel preached from every public podium and monument in the land? Is your faith so weak that you cannot sustain it against my simply saying to students, "Oh, look: molecules"?
The state has no business promoting any religion. The state has no business de-moting any religion. The state has plenty of business teaching children the basic facts of how the world works. You are free to frost that cake with all the layers of supernaturalism you want. But the First Amendment says you get no public subsidy for any one flavor of that frosting. No one gets to enter my classroom and hand kids Bibles, Korans, or United Atheists of America sign-up sheets.
I've read Alexie's book. It's one of the best young adult pieces of fiction I've ever read.
Quite frankly, I'm all for having a Gideon Bible which is likely the New Testament along with Psalms and Proverbs, Alexie's book, tracts that Cory has hand picked, a Quran, a collection of the sayings of Buddha, a collection of the sayings of Confucius, Laozi's Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, and Darwin's Origin of the Species. I'd add the Life of Pi, Neil Gaiman's American Gods, The Federalist Papers, and Orwell's Animal Farm put in a bag and handed out to high school students. if I win a huge lottery jackpot, I think I'll set up a foundation to do that.
At the very least they'd be a well read bunch of young folk. At best, the list would have more people living their faith rather than merely talking about it.
Most of us Christians should read the last few pages of Animal Farm and the New Testament's Book of James every month to remind us not to turn into the thing we claim to hate.
Kal Lis gets into my classroom because he's making an honest effort to educate, not proselytize.
I'm not sure if our discussion would frighten the students or entertain them, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't bore them
sherman's work on all levels is nothing short of superb!!
You want a religious education,go to your #$@#ing church and stay out of public schools.
Hickey still elevates the supernatural above the US Constitution:
http://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2014/07/30/miller-school-board-bibles/13364503/
So much for the argument that Bibles are not banned in the government schools.
No, schools can have Bibles in their libraries. Students can carry and read Bibles. But a proselytizing organization cannot exploit public resources to advance its faith.
The argument wasn't about bibles being banned. It was your side's contention that Libs and the ACLU drove prayer out of public schools where it doesn't belong. Another blatant lie conservatives push. Any student or teacher can pray in silence whenever they want. The prayer can't disrupt school activities and the school can't endorse the prayer.
Cory, Cory, there you go with facts again, the right wing doesn't understand facts.