Nathan Alfson identifies himself as a gay Christian athlete. And now the Dell Rapids coach, 2012 Augustana graduate, and Pipestone native has decided to do so publicly. Why take the risk of becoming a political lightning rod?
I am writing my story to share with the world that it is OK to be who you are born as and feel confident about it. I have found that there are other people in the world just like me and I don’t have to feel alone any longer. I am a proud openly gay man with a great job as a program coordinator for an agency that serves adults with disabilities [Nate Alfson, "Young Gay High School Baseball Coach Finds Acceptance in Rural South Dakota," Outsports, 2014.08.05].
Alfson wants other South Dakotans in his situation to feel that same self-confidence... the same self-confidence that a majoritarian heterosexual like me can enjoy while holding my spouse's hand in a public park without a second thought:
...[K]now that there are people in the world who care about you and understand what you’re going through. Finding that support system first was the most helpful thing I did and reading other stories by openly gay athletes of how happy they are and how much support they have received allowed me to be confident enough to share my story.
We are all in this together and we can change this fear inside ourselves one story at a time. Make a difference in the world by being kind to one another and don’t be afraid to do good deeds to those around you. A smile goes a long way. Be you, be true, and never forget that you matter [Alfson, 2014.08.05].
Nate, we shouldn't have to call you brave for simply saying who you are and whom you love. But we do, and you are.
Let's see how Dell Rapids and South Dakota respond to Nate and to thousands of neighbors like him.
There are seven fundamentals in baseball: throwing, catching, hitting, running, picking, spitting and scratching. Gay or straight, it makes no difference, play ball.
Am proud of this brave young man and I hope SD treats him well.
In the related links provided, it is not clear if Nate is still employed by St. Mary's, the private Catholic school. The Rapid City Journal reported that Nate fears being fired from his job for being gay.
Congratulations to a courageous young man that is making a difference in the world.
"Nathan Alfson identifies himself as a gay Christian athlete."
That is an oxymoron. A gay fake Christian would be accurate. An openly unrepentant sinner cannot be a Biblical Christian.
Knock it off Sibson! And grow up!
Roger, I wouldn't be surprised if the Catholics fired him.
Did Jesus have a girlfriend? hmmm
I've never known a 'real' Christian.
I feel rather sorry for you, Steve, always reaching out for attention on Cory's blog. I bet Nathan Alfson is so much more at peace with whom he is as a person than people like you ever will be.
When Chad doesn't want to talk about a scandal he finds uncomfortable, he just redefines "scandal" and says the scandal we're asking about isn't a scandal. When Mike Rounds doesn't want to admit he left the state budget in deficit, he redefines "deficit" and says the deficit we're talking about isn't really a deficit. When Steve encounters a Christian who upsets his narrow worldview, he simply redefines "Christian" and says the Christian we're talking about isn't a Christian.
By Steve's logic, since all humans are fallible, since all humans will fail at some point to follow all of the Lord's commands, no one is a Christian. Everyone's faking it, including Steve.
Nathan Alfson says he follows the Christian faith. He says he prefers the physical company of dudes. And he says he likes to play baseball. He is trying to be less fake, more authentic, and he will pay some price for doing so. I see no reason not to take him at his word on all three of those self-identifications.
"By Steve's logic, since all humans are fallible, since all humans will fail at some point to follow all of the Lord's commands, no one is a Christian."
Cory, you are missing the Biblical principle of repentance. And so is Nathan.
Jenny,
It wouldn't surprise me if the Catholics fired Nate, these are South Dakota Catholics after all.
Nate surely has the support and blessings of most Christians that believe in love, after all along with all God's good deeds he created gays and lesbians.
The funny thing is, if homosexuality had not been mentioned in the bible, then all the anti-gay Christian right wingers would probably be embracing it.
Cory,
Please don't allow Sibson to contaminate another one of your threads with his Christian delusions.
Nate should be able to define himself as he chooses, he doesn't need a homophobic "Christian" to question his beliefs. I take Nate's opinions in the spirit they were given.
"Nate surely has the support and blessings of most Christians that believe in love, after all along with all God's good deeds he created gays and lesbians."
First part is true, second part not true Roger:
And finally, same-sex attractions are not of God; they are of the devil and are evil, as are all temptations to sin (click HERE). There is nothing good about either same-sex attractions or the practice of homosexuality in any context.
http://rethinkingtheology.com/2013/02/15/homosexual-born-again-christians-they-do-exist/
Sibson,
I refuse to be drawn into your idiocy, there is no reason in the world for me to believe anything your write. You Sibson, are a complete bore. You don't need to provide any links to proved your stupidity, they are even a bigger bore than you.
It is great that Nate has found peace in his life and is now comfortable in his skin with plenty of support from his friends and presumably from his family.
This courageous young is not a threat to society and has plenty of potential with his athletic talents to make a meaningful contribution to his community.
I doubt that Sibson has ever been able to make a substantial contribution to his community as great as this young man has already done in the early years of his life.
The Wesleyan Church in Mitchell asked Steve Sibson a few years ago to play the part of Jesus in its Easter ... play? Contata? Whatever. I've heard from a colleague of his that being asked to play Jesus inflated his ego even more. And I see it's true. For your next performance, are you going to tell us you wrote the Bible, Steve?
Sibby, thanks for the link. I see you quoted from it, but it appears you may not have read the entire link. I read it all and the author condemns your behavior and name-calling. The author says,
"We should all be aware that there are many people who name the name of Jesus but are not helping homosexual born-again Christians become who Christ really wants them to be. . . . I will call out these “wolves in sheep’s clothing” for what they are, based on what they are doing, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be. Firstly, there are those who seem to have only condemnation, and no compassion, for those who have turned out to be homosexual. They are quick to point out the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, but seem to ignore the fact that God loves homosexual people . . . ."
That section describes your anti-gay comments very accurately.
Next the author says: "So then, how can we show the love of Christ to homosexual born-again Christians? Perhaps we can best do this is by doing what Jesus would do . . . . Jesus would be willing to spend time with homosexual people when he had the opportunity to do so . . . and He would treat them with kindness and respect. . . ."
This is just the opposite of the tenor of your comments about people who acknowledge that they are homosexuals and Christians. Indeed, the author of your article also says, "we can recognize truly born-again, homosexual Christians. I am talking now about practicing homosexuals who have been born-again and have not yet repented of their homosexual practices . . . ."
Cory's story about Mr. Alfson says nothing about whether he acts on his homosexuality, yet you assume he does and you attack his Christianity. You know literally nothing about this man or his behavior yet you immediately challenge his Christianity, citing an article that criticizes your own conduct in doing so.
Maybe it would help you to reflect on your own weaknesses and consider trying out a more humanistic and kind atheism instead of falling into a cruel form of thinking designed to criticize and hurt other people that you know little or nothing about. If you did not find peace as an atheist who tried to help, rather than hurt, people, Christianity would permit you to repent.
Good luck to this young man. took a lot of courage to come out in this state. I'd classified him as a trailblazer.
They only ones that seem to have a heartburn are the so-called Christians. Take a couple of Tums and go back to being a judge and jury.
Rich, I played Jesus in Godspell my junior year at MHS. I was an atheist then, I remain an atheist now.
Alfson tells this story about his very literal efforts to pray the gay away while suffering from emotional isolation at Augustana:
"I craved companionship and close friendships and dreamed (and still do) of sharing who I am with someone special. There were times in college where I would try to get close to certain friends and hope that they would care about me so deeply that eventually I would be able to share with them that I was gay. At the same time, I was also praying and wishing that God would make my feelings towards other guys go away. I despised the fact that I had these feelings and would spend countless nights awake, crying, and hoping that someday I would be able to feel like I could be with a woman."
Life is too short to (a) be false and (b) be alone. With his admission, Alfson is free to form healthy, honest relationships, platonic and romantic, with people who better understand who he is.
Sibby stands accused of vernacular homicide(I stole that from another blog). And no,I don't want to know (or care) how you plead.
ain't nothing like a dose of christianity to lay a guilt trip on a body.
All catholic schools should fire anyone who isn't married and isn't a virgin, since they are probably having premarital sex which is a sin. They should also fire married people who don't have a baby every year and a half, since that means they are using birth control which is also a sin. If you are going to fire people based on sin, enforce all the sins, not just some.
Good work bcb on taking the time to read the link Sibson sent. In reading his posts along with Dr. Bos's issues, it is like two different worlds compared to the reality that I live in. The evil that these two possess on how they deal with people, is really amazing to read. I think of what their families must go through to witness this and find it very sad
"it appears you may not have read the entire link"
BCB, I read that and I agree with it. You have misjudged me. Looks like atheists violate the same law that they have created (thou shall not judge others), just like the Pharisees...hypocrites.
"Cory's story about Mr. Alfson says nothing about whether he acts on his homosexuality"
By not rejecting such acts, Mr. Alfson fails Christianity.
BCB, Mr. Alfson appears not to fit the born again gay Christian described in the link I provided. I pray that I am wrong.
"Good work bcb on taking the time to read the link Sibson sent."
Jerry, did you read it yourself? If you did, then you would know BCB's judgment against me is false. Very sad.
Steve, as an atheist, I judge regularly, vocally, and fearlessly. I judge Nathan Alfson an admirable and honest individual, struggling against oppressive prejudice.
Christians fail Christianity regularly. If Alfson ain't Christian, ain't nobody Christian. Saying "Alfson isn't Christian" is just self-isolationist language, code for, "Alfson doesn't measure up to the God of my imagination; my God says he's scum and I'm better."
In the eyes of the Christian God, we are all scum. We are all undeserving of grace. This ninny-parsing of texts to hierarchicalize sinners and saints makes the Christian God snicker.
Now, are we going to sit around and count vowels in Scripture, or are we going to play some baseball?
This young fellow is probably the first gay baseball player in South Dakota. Somebody had to be, right?
Sibby, my god is better than yours.
For those who have read the link, you would have learned about "The Arch Enemies of Homosexual Born-again Christians":
" Firstly, there are those who seem to have only condemnation, and no compassion, for those who have turned out to be homosexual. They are quick to point out the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, but seem to ignore the fact that God loves homosexual people and wants them to repent and receive the good news just as much as He wants the rest of us to do so."
As BCB falsely judges me to be among those enemies, he fails to understand that he is among the other enemies:
"Secondly, there are the purveyors of “gay theology”, who tell homosexual people that God approves of homosexual sex and that it is not necessary for them to repent in order to spend their eternity in heaven (3). And thirdly, there are those who teach the “gay gospel”, saying that, although God considers homosexual sex to be sinful, he does not require repentance in this case because His grace somehow gives homosexual people a dispensation, or exemption, that will enable them to spend their eternity in heaven despite their sinful lifestyle."
"Alfson doesn't measure up to the God of my imagination; my God says he's scum and I'm better."
That is an atheist worldview, where god is oneself, which I reject.
The good news of this story is that young Mr. Alfson does not have to live his life according to Sibson's perverted standards. Nate is now free to make the choices about his sexuality and Christianity without consideration of what Sibson thinks about him.
The bad news of this story is that young Mr. Alfson does not have to live his life according to Biblical standards.
The good news of this story is that regardless how Nate lives his life, it is none of Sibson's business. Sibson is irrelevant in Nate's choices.
Sibby - Why would BCB, an avowed atheist, be telling anyone that God approves of homosexuality. More utter nonsense from a man who not only can't see the forest for the trees, but cant see the logs sticking from his own eyes.
If the Holy Spirit truly is guiding Sibson as he responds on these blog posts, one has to come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is an idiot.
"The good news of this story is that regardless how Nate lives his life, it is none of Sibson's business. Sibson is irrelevant in Nate's choices"
All true, just don't promote sin publically without receiving correction.
Mr. Sibby, will you wash my feet?
Sibson, it is not your responsibility to approve or disapprove your depraved interpretation of what sin is or isn't.
Your repeated homophobic comments are just as sinful as anything there is in your Bible and calls your own Christianity into question. Those kind of comments are damaging to this young man who has struggled all his life to define himself. What has Nate done to you Sibson?
Do you obsess about adultery and other sins they way you carry on about the gay community?
Jeepers, it took Sibby all of twenty seconds to hijack the thread by applying the No True Scotsman fallacy to Christianity.
Sibson, I assume that you believe that all divorce should be stopped except in the variations stated in the Bible. I also assume that you feel the a woman or man not be allowed to remarry (at least in a church).
Please enlighten us where exactly in the Bible it condemns same-sex marriage.
Seven or eight main biblical passages that may deal with same-gender sexual behavior are described below. They are often referred to as "clobber" passages, because they are often used to attack persons with a homosexual or bisexual orientation. They have been interpreted very differently by various religious denominations, para-church groups, and traditions. All groups recognize that these biblical passages condemn some types of sexual behavior but there is no consensus within a given religion whether they refer to consensual sexual behavior by persons with a homosexual or bisexual orientation, and whether it refers to all people or only to persons with a heterosexual orientation. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm)
Sibson, Westboro Baptist Church is calling and they want their rhetoric back!
@#$^&€%×€£!;/!!!!!!
I had some things to say, but I am sick to death of these All Sibson All The Time comments. I don't read Sibson, but nearly every comment is someone responding to him. So #$@÷=&€*(!!! I'm done on this post.
Too bad Steve feels the need to continually troll the comments here. I realize he can't attract any traffic to his own site and therefore he has to go elsewhere, but this is a bit ridiculous.
Don't feed the troll please.
A troll for the republican party bosses to try to hijack all posts away from the real issues that folks like myself are interested in. As a paid troll, he should be made to sit in the corner.
Jerry,
You're are probably right that Sibson is a paid troll by the Republican Party bosses or maybe even Powers.
I hate to say this about my fellow Madvillians, but we are all too gullible my it comes to Sibson and his idiocy, he draws us like moths to a flame and the result is he destroys some many threads that should be interesting topics.
Look at the number of threads that Cory posts that should be of interest to us, yet get only a few comments if any.
Instead the great minds and talents here are consumed by the mindlessness of Sibson.
If you scroll down for a minute to 'hot topics', you'll see that the threads with the greatest number of comments are on religion, the Bible, or something related to them. Topics that offer an opinion or comment that have no winners or losers and offer nothing constructive to the subject that should matter.
I'm sorry, I should be talking about Nate and what a fantastic young man he is and what contributions he'll be making to society.
"You're are probably right that Sibson is a paid troll by the Republican Party bosses or maybe even Powers."
Great, unfounded conspiracy theory. The Republican Establishment hates me as much as you people do.
I am here because Cory wants to define what a Christian is. That should be done with God's Word the Bible.
"Why would BCB, an avowed atheist, be telling anyone that God approves of homosexuality."
Even though BCB does not believe the Bible is God's Word, he has read it. As stated, my argument is based on the premise that a Christian should be defined by that book. That is where the standards come from, not me. When pastors such as Deb reject the Word, then they set themselves up as gods or goddesses. Or they have to argue that there is no truth, which is a postmodern premise that is more accurately called a New Age religion, not Christianity. Then they preach that you can be whatever you want to be, as the Bible is whatever you want to make it out to be. But they call themselves Christians as they teach such false doctrines that prevent sinners from implementing repentance. That is why such rebellion is dangerous. It is more dangerous to Christianity than atheists. I don't believe most social conservatives understand that. Instead they buy off on this unity kick and yoke themselves with false converts.
Sibby,
Stop. You're not doing yourself or the faith any good.
Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
You do seem to enjoy stirring up conflict, just sayin'
Sibby,back in high school you'd be what we called a "space cadet" meaning you are waaaaayyyyyy out there.
So now I go from a paid troll by the Republican party to a space cadet who enjoys stirring up conflict. And only Fundamentalists judge others?
Mike, based on your own postmodern worldview, you would be called a bully and intolerant bigot in today's cultural Neo-Marxist society if such advocates were not hypocrites.
Jerry, Roger, I will vouch this far for Steve: the SDGOP is not paying him for what he does. He's this wrong and confused all on his own dime.
I doubt Alfson will agree with me on the point I'm about to make, but I contend that his failed prayers demonstrate why debating Sibson's theology is pointless. Alfson sought the Lord. He prayed. Those spiritual efforts didn't make any practical difference. The supernatural being he thought he was speaking to didn't change him and didn't change the people around him. Theist opponents of homosexuality can say Alfson didn't pray right, he hasn't really given his heart to God. Theist defenders of homosexual rights can say God did work, just not in ways Alfson expected.
But what matters is that Alfson suffered, Alfson thought, and Alfson spoke. Alfson chooses his course. We choose our response. Everything that practically matters happens in this world, this plane, and no appeals to the supernatural advance our understanding of what is or should be happening.
It really is just like baseball. Sibby can buttonhole us [oops: I initially typo'ed that, quite Freudianly leaving out the on in the verb] in the dugout, distracting us with discussions of whether God approves of pine tar or whom God wants on the mound or whether we lost last night's game because we didn't pray hard enough. But those conversations won't help us get in shape or keep our eyes on the ball.
El Rayo said it at the very top: on the ball diamond, as in so much of life, it doesn't matter whom you kiss or whether you pray. It matters how hard you work and how well you play.
"But those conversations won't help us get in shape or keep our eyes on the ball."
But those conversations won't help us get in shape or keep our eyes on the Bible.
"a person who stirs up conflict in the community"
Kal, Paul describes such persons:
(Romans 16:17-18) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."
Those who promote immoral sexuality are contrary to Biblical doctrine, and they don't want the Christian community to keep its eye on the Bible.
Paul loved opium and strong drink then made stuff up.
"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." (reference can be found in "Christianity Betrayed")
Among the critics of Paul the Apostle was Thomas Jefferson who wrote that Paul was the ”first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”
Carl Sagan (Scientist; Author)
"My long-time view about Christianity is that it represents an amalgam of two seemingly immiscible parts--the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul. Thomas Jefferson attempted to excise the Pauline parts of the New Testament. There wasn't much left when he was done, but it was an inspiring document."
OK Kal, since you brought up the issue of those who cause conflict. Let us take a lesson regarding that issue from Deb's apostate church:
"We see from the sad example of what’s happened to the ELCA–the biggest split in American church history–that whatever churches and other organizations such as the Boy Scouts imagine they will gain by giving in to the world is dwarfed by what they will surely lose.
Since shortly after its formation in 1988 the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America [ELCA] has been fixated on deviant sexual behavior, culminating in the endorsement of homosexual pastors in 2009, homosexual “marriage” in 2011, and the election last month of their first homosexual bishop. Dr. James Nestingen, a highly respected scholar and retired ELCA seminary professor, recently concluded that promoting acceptance of deviant sexual behavior has actually replaced the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the primary mission and message of the ELCA."
http://theaquilareport.com/elca-has-biggest-split-in-american-church-history/
And now we have Nathan bringing that same conflict to the Catholic church.
Sibby's childhood was rife with perversions: that he believes he can recover from that by condemning others is a hallmark symptom of his pathologies.
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior that shows up in thinking and behavior in a lot of different situations and activities. People with NPD won't (or can't) change their behavior even when it causes problems at work or when other people complain about the way they act, or when their behavior causes a lot of emotional distress to others (or themselves? none of my narcissists ever admit to being distressed by their own behavior -- they always blame other people for any problems). This pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior is not caused by current drug or alcohol use, head injury, acute psychotic episodes, or any other illness, but has been going on steadily at least since adolescence or early adulthood."
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
Seems like one should at least give Sibson the credit of being as brave as Alfson for being willing to step up and and take criticism from all corners for expressing his beliefs. Madville's comment board is a hostile place for anyone who doesn't toe the far left line.
Rand Paul is far left to you, Aaron.
Judge not that You be not judged.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
And of course the standard disclaimers on posting Biblical stuff. From proverbs, " A proverb on the lips of a fool hang limp like the legs of a cripple." and "Even the Devil can quote scripture" from wherever.
Anyway, I guessed the comments here would only be about two.
1. So, What?
2. Oh, well.
Aaron, Steve verbally attacks people, then rationalize (justifies,) doing so by saying that he is just trying to "warn," people. He tends to be the first one in a topic thread to attack people.
He does not seem to realize, or does not care, that attacking people puts them on the defensive. He is smart enough, and capable enough to express his opinions without being offensive, but he does not do so.
He is similar to a guy I knew whom, after doing some major property damage, would rationalize his behavior by saying "At least I didn't hit anybody."
While my siblings and I were growing up, my siblings would hit me, when I cried or protested they would say "Awww, that didn't hurt." After I learned how to strike back by kicking them in the balls, guess what, they stopped hitting me.
Gay Christians = Oxymoron
Adulterous Christians = Oxymoron
Straight or Gay, God does not discriminate.
If you're not living right you cannot be Christian, Period!
Now, what part of immoral do you not understand?
"Steve verbally attacks people, then rationalize (justifies,) doing so by saying that he is just trying to "warn," people."
Please provide an example. And I hope the example is equal to calling people mentally ill.
Steve...get a life. Almost everything you say is just plain wrong. "God" did not write the bible. It appeared centuries after "Jesus". You cant argue this. And many chapters were left out. Did god change his mind? no. man did. Man wrote the bible.
Aww crap!
Angelo Cruz found Sibson.
Perfectly good thread topic shot to hell!!
'"God" did not write the bible. It appeared centuries after "Jesus".'
So then how did Jesus quote from the Old Testament, if it appeared centuries after Jesus?
Steve, read your own comments, especially those addressed to Deb. You also attack people who do not agree with your beliefs as being the various "isms." I don't need to prove it, just look it up yourself.
If you would just express your opinions without all the name-calling and negative labeling, you would not put people on the defensive and their urge to strike back.
JeniW, I am describing a person's worldview statements and positions. Did I say they were left winguts? No. Did I say they were crazy? No. Those are personal attacks.
Deb, has made it clear that she does not believe in the Bible. That does not fit a person who holds a Biblical Christian worldview. If you call yourself a Christian, while denying the Bible, if you promote universalism which denies the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, then you are a fake Christian. That is the truth, not a personal attack. The purpose is to prevent others from being mislead by false teachers of fake Christianity. And that is a bad thing Jeni?
Matthew 7:1
Judge not that You be not judged.
JOHN 7:24
JESUS SAID: DO NOT JUDGE ACCORDING TO APPEARANCE, BUT JUDGE WITH RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT.
The world LOVES to toss Matthew 7:1 at Christians like if it was a hand grenade.
God commands Christians to JUDGE according to the Word those things which are immoral, like homosexuality and adulterous relationships.
You've heard it said before, God loves the sinner but hates the sin.
Now, what part of this are you not getting Madville?
A Bible Denying Christian is a Christian who dwells in a "Chamber of Deception" held captive by the father of deception.
I do not deny the Bible; I have a different perspective than you do in terms of what it means. We all have different life experiences that affects our perspective in different ways. That includes what we understand the words of the Bible to mean.
I have not had the life experiences that you have, so my perspective will be different than yours.
I can just as easily say that you are a "fake Christian." If I were to write that you are a "fake Christian," would you consider that a personal attack or not?
"God" did not write the bible. It appeared centuries after "Jesus".'
Bryce, did you know that Jesus existed BEFORE the Bible and the earth were created?
JeniW
Why do you always say: "I have a different perspective than you do in terms of what it means."
Steve and I have never met and judging by his threads I dare say we believe the same things overall.
We might disagree on a few things but then again I disagree with my wife too on a few things.
Based on what you have said I'm not so sure you and I agree on anything concerning the Bible.
What denomination do you belong to? What church do you attend? Do you go to church? Have you read the whole Bible? Do you accept it as the Perfect Word of God or do you see imperfections and contradictions?
Why is knowing whether I attend a church, or not, or what church I belong to, or my beliefs important to you (if it is?)
I have not asked you those same questions because it does not matter to me what you believe.
There are people who agree with me, and there are people who disagree with me. It just does not matter. What is important is if we are at peace with what we each believe.
Just I cannot convince or force you to consider my perspectives as being correct or not, you cannot convince or force me to consider your perspectives as being correct or not.
Angelo I have a Muslim friend who feels as strongly about the Koran as you do about the Bible. From your perspective and his you two are Worlds apart. From my perspective there is not a dime's worth of difference between you. Stick around long enough and you will find yourself on Sibby's "Fake christian " list.
Well, you know what they say, the men that speak loudest against gays are usually the ones who are secretly gay.
Would someone please put an end to all this bible thumping at Madville? If you only want to point out how your religion is the only right religion, go to your church, get out in front of your congregation, and yell to beat hell. I haven't seen any minds changed here and truthfully the shits getting pretty deap.
Arent there places you can slither off to that there are some of those with like minds lurking around trying to convert little kids to your version of the "book of fables?"
This is the very reason that our forefathers freed us to practice the religion that we prefer. They also tried tp protect us from people trying to use the government to force their religions down everybody's throat.
This continuous scripture spouting is starting to wear real thin. I would like you to just get over your bad assed selves.
This is the word according to every version of the bible.
Matthew 6:6
When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.…
Does any of this sound like what has been going on in this blog lately?
My guess is that there are going to be some surprises when some of you get to the pearly gates, if there are any. What are you going to do if god turns out to be a black lesbian? My guess is you would try to convince her that you have been misled.
I dont like in your face fundies, they are only interested in control, nothing else will do. How else can you explain all the religious interest on a political blog?
I admit that I'm not into religion, but from what I've read here I would still go listen to Deb preach. Sibby and Angelo, not so much, no that's not right, NONE AT ALL.
Everybody, get back in your closets and get to praying.
The Blindman
"I admit that I'm not into religion, but from what I've read here I would still go listen to Deb preach."
Bill, thanks for providing proof that Deb is a false teacher of fake Christianity.
"Well, you know what they say, the men that speak loudest against gays are usually the ones who are secretly gay."
Which chapter of the Bible did you find that one?
North Carolina Republican Senate candidate Steve Wiles campaigned heavily on his anti-gay beliefs and his support of the state's same sex marriage ban. However, in May 2014, news broke that just over a decade ago, he worked as an openly gay drag queen and drag-show emcee at Club Odyssey, a gay-friendly Winston-Salem lounge. In addition to emcee, Wiles also directed the show, and in prior years was a frequent attendee and performed under the stage name "Miss Mona Sinclair." Wiles also worked as a promoter for the 2011 Miss Gay America pageant.
First grade teacher and volunteer youth leader Caleb Douglas Hesse has been a longtime anti-gay activist and even donated to Prop 8 in California to ban gay marriage. In August 2012, he confessed to sexually abusing "numerous underage boys," usually during overnight trips with the Evangelical Free Church youth group in Yucca Valley, CA. Investigators believe Hesse's inappropriate contact with young boys may have spanned up to three decades, occurring in "the early 1980s and as recently as a week ago."
George Rekers, a man who helped start one of the most powerful anti-gay lobbying groups in the U.S. during the 80s and has written published papers such as "Growing Up Straight: What Families Should Know About Homosexuality," had a recent surgery, so during a lecture tour when he was unable to lift his own luggage, he hired some help – which is perfectly reasonable.
Where did he go to get this help? Rentboy.com, baby.
Georgia Pastor Eddie Long is a Baptist and famed televangelist in his area. In 2004, he led a march to Dr. Martin Luther King's grave in the name of defining marriage as between a man and a woman. He has also been quoted as saying that his church can "deliver" people from homosexuality.
He is currently being sued by four young men (ages 21, 20, 23, and 22) for using his fame and influence to coerce them into sexual relationships. The relationships lasted months and occurred during the boys' late teens. The age of consent in Georgia is 16, so it was legal, but it was still wrong of him to use his power to get the boys to do sexual favors for him.
Alabama Attorney General Troy King, Known for his vocal opposition to gay rights and for his attempt to outlaw sex toys, King was caught by his wife while having sex with a local homecoming King (see what we did there?) from – wait for it –Troy University.
Richard Curtis, This Washington State Representative has an anti-gay rights voting record – he voted against domestic partnerships for gays and opposed a bill prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation.
Oh, really now? Well, it wasn't before long that Mr. Mega-Compensation resigned from the House due to reports of his sexual encounter with a male escort being made, you know, "public" and all.
The reputed male prostitute, Cody Castagna, with whom he was cavorting, told police that Curtis offered him $1,000 to have sex with him and that Curtis purchased two gay pornographic films from the hotel for them to watch in his room.
Even more, this all went down with Curtis wearing a red negligee and Castagna has pictures to prove it. Pictures he only took as revenge when it was discovered that Curtis only had $200 in his wallet.
http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-gay-activists-caught-being-gay/joanne?format=SLIDESHOW&page=6
Oh there are many more. Sibby you ask where it is in the bible. Well it is hard to dispute that which has been proven, national news, you know pictures and real people, and things like that. That's called hard proof.
On the other hand you are still useing the bible as a reference to prove that what is written in the bible is the truth. That wouldn't go far in a court of law and it isn't going to change anybodys mind here.
The Blindman
And don't forget gay lover Sen Larry Craig that was caught in the Minneapolis airport bathroom wanting to get it on with another guy.
Oh ya, Mr,. "WIDE STANCE"
The Blindman
And self-proclaimed bisexual Ted Haggard. It's so obvious that the men that speak so loudly against homosexuality are secretly in the loving arms of men.
It's just sad that in 2014, gay men still have to hide who they really are.
Jenny, we are wrong you know. He said he was constipated. We really should have more respect for those in government. NOT!
The Blindman
Bill, what you are describing are the hypocrites Jesus referred to. It didn't change the rules on sexual immorality.
"So now I go from a paid troll by the Republican party to a space cadet who enjoys stirring up conflict. And only Fundamentalists judge others?"
I now you intolerant hate mongers are accusing me of being gay. And only Fundamentalists judge?
Great job in joining the group of world class of hypocrites.
Steve, just remember that Jesus still loves you.
Jenny, Jesus was not all that happy with hypocrites of his day. And probably not of Ted Haggard and Bill Clintons of today:
That was the final straw for me. According to then president of the NAE Ted Haggard we see that Bill Clinton is an evangelical. In the wake of the current scandal with Haggard and some of his "peculiar" answers to initial questions when it first broke we might look at what Haggard says above in a different light. But be that as it may, Bill Clinton is the man who brought about as much shame as anyone could possibly bring to the highest office in the land.
This is a man who used his training as a lawyer in an unsuccessful attempt to avoid moral responsibility for his sin by trying to have us redefine the word "is." Hmmm come to think of it, "redefine," "reexamine," "repaint," you know, Bill Clinton would fit in rather well with the rubbery rhetoric of "evangelicals" like Brian McLaren and Rob Bell of the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church. So I guess maybe Haggard was actually right here as we take into account just how lukewarm the evangelical community has now become.
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/news/article/wake-call-ted-haggard
Bill, I don't disagree with you that those who speak the loudest against homosexuality often end up being homosexuals, but I do have to caution you against confusing homosexuality with pedophelia.
For example the reference you made to Caleb Douglas Hesse shows he is a pedophile, but let's not confuse that with homosexuality, as that isn't fair to the many homosexual men who are NOT interested in young boys.
We also know there are hundreds of cases of known pastors and priests who have molested young boys, but I wouldn't add them to your list since they are not necessarily homosexual even if they are known pedophiles.
Steve indicated the examples you gave are hypocrites... and I won't disagree with him, but the list also serves as evidence of your original point. All too often those who are the most vocal against what they deem to be "immoral behavior" are the very same individuals who are later found to be engaging in said behavior.
Politicians and Preachers are continually trying to tell us what is important to them, but we need not look at their words, but instead their actions. When they open up the books and we see where they devoting their resources it becomes very clear what they truly value.
I thought this thread would die a quick death, but since it hasn't, and since Angelo and Aaron joined with Sibby, I guess I have some final comments.
First Sibby, My earlier post only pointed out that the author of the link you endorsed for Madville made several statements that seemed to be highly critical of your comment. The author of your link said:
"We should all be aware that there are many people who name the name of Jesus but are not helping homosexual born-again Christians become who Christ really wants them to be. . . . I will call out these "wolves in sheep's clothing" for what they are, based on what they are doing, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be. Firstly, there are those who seem to have only condemnation, and no compassion, for those who have turned out to be homosexual. They are quick to point out the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, but seem to ignore the fact that God loves homosexual people . . . ."
Thus, I did not criticize you for your comments, rather, I pointed out that the author of the link you provided criticized behavior similar to yours. I also pointed out that this particular observation was highly relevant to your comments asserting that you knew Mr. Alfson was a false Christian.
The author of your linked comment differed and affirmatively said a homosexual who had not stopped practicing homosexual acts could still be a born again Christian. The author's exact words are "we can recognize truly born-again, homosexual Christians. I am talking now about practicing homosexuals who have been born-again and have not yet repented of their homosexual practices . . . ."
Angelo and Aaron, these words are words of an author that Sibby linked as proof that Sibby's condemnation of Mr. Alfson was somehow justified. Yet Sibby's own comments contradict the author's position.
Thus, Sibby, your response that I attacked you is off the mark. I merely pointed out the inconsistencies of your comments with the advocacy of a Christian author you told Madville to rely on.
I also pointed out that the author of your comment said:
"So then, how can we show the love of Christ to homosexual born-again Christians? Perhaps we can best do this is by doing what Jesus would do . . . . Jesus would be willing to spend time with homosexual people when he had the opportunity to do so . . . and He would treat them with kindness and respect. . . ."
I pointed out that on their face your comments do not treat homosexuals with love and respect. Thus, you again are acting contrary to what your linked author said was the proper way to treat folks. And Angelo, your comments also suggest that you do not treat homosexuals with love and respect - think about it.
Aaron, I do agree with you that Sibby's assertion of his positions on Madville will often draw the ire of other commentators. I suspect that it is the perception from reading his comments that he shows absolute apparent disrespect of others when it comes to religious beliefs. I know from experience that Sibby is fully capable of drafting much more respectful comments, and I would encourage him to consider doing so, even on religious matters. But by lowering himself to name calling by labeling and condemning others, he naturally draws hostile comments in response.
http://www.juanitajean.com/2014/08/07/holy-crap-buck-a-duck-and-dump-a-dog-edition/
Mass.has had some form of gay marriage for at least 10 years and so far no one has tried to legalize polygamy,pedophilia or Rick Santorum's favorite subject(see link).
Bill and Jenny,
that exchange was entertaining and quite factual. You can't help but wonder about someone's sexuality when they are so homophobic. I don't accept their explanation of the Bible says it is a sin, big deal there are a lot of sins in the Bible. Why do they concentrate just on homosexuality?
If anti-gay factions can use a broad brush to paint homosexuals as sinners, I can use that same broad brush to paint those homophobics as 'closet homosexuals'.
According to the legal definition Clinton's opponents came up with,Clinton was well within his right to deny he had sex with anyone except a blue dress. I'm guessing there are about the last five wingnut Potii who have brought as much or more shame on the office as Clinton ever dreamed of.
Thanks for the history lesson Blindman.
And Craig I agree that homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia - both heterosexuals and homosexuals can be pedophiles.
As for the Bible, I cannot get away from the story of incest between Lot and his two daughters. If that is okay, according to the Old Testament, then I have a hard time understanding a prohibition against gay marriage.
Indeed the Garfunkel and Oates song "God's Loophole" points out a key inconsistency in the Bible as it only addresses male to male sodomy, while apparently having no trouble with male to female sodomy. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ZF_R_j0OY
Sibby you know I never said any of those things. But hey, its not the first time I've been misquoted so I'll give you a pass. But isn't what your doing a lot like baring false witness?
The Blindman
Aaron,Sibby wears a sign on his back that begs normal people to abuse him. He asks for all the abuse we can give him every time his fingers get them old travelin' bones on his keyboard.
A "loophole" indeed bcb, I hope the three amigos enjoy it as much as I did. What say you Sibson, aaron, and el patron himself, the cruz dude.
Looks like Angelo should leave Florida and move to the frozen north:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-08-04/news/fl-gay-marriage-brassner-divorce-20140804_1_marriage-ban-judge-cohen-florida-supreme-court
BCB my oh my! Darn you for your danged old vedio anyway. Now I'm going to be watching those two girls for the next couple of hours. Can you feel me smile?
The Blindman
Little does Angelo know that if he immigrated to South Dakota he'd be discriminated against by virtue of his ancestry.
the cruz dude would get run out of here like a pheasant in October. Florida suits him well and I will bet he fits right in with the rest of the fake hustlers.
not nearly many people named jesus live in southern dakota as in southern florida.
Blindman, that was exactly my reaction to these gals! They are one of the best - their lyrics - poetry - are as good as (or perhaps even better than) Fish Karma and Bob Dylan, but they can sing and play great music. How refreshing! Given your wonderful abilities, I am not surprised that you enjoy them.
JeniW, do you realize that you are repeating yourself?
Furthermore, you appear to be vague about your beliefs.
"If you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything"
Hey, I'm not trying to force you to believe anything I say.
Ultimately that will be on you but just remember that your eternal soul hangs in the balance.
Is Angelo a real person or another PP clone using an ip randomizer?
Barry, tell your friend that there is only One True God - Jehovah God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Are you trying to sow discord between Steve my brother in Christ and myself?
His writings tell me that we are of One Accord.
today's oxymoron: eternal soul.
So Angelo, you tell JeniW that "just remember that your eternal soul hangs in the balance."
Is that why you are a Christian - you fear that you will suffer eternal punishment if you are not one? How sad. That is the definition of extortion, and you apparently see yourself as a victim of the extortionist - Jesus. Wow, doesn't that give you pause on the morality of being born again? How sincere can one's belief be if it is the result of a threat of eternal damnation?
hey angelo: the real sinners in southern dakota comment here.
Sibby everyone needs to relax and take the time to just laugh. Here's something I think you might like.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sHFxDcKElSM
Now everybody smile damn it!
The Blindman
I own an Accord cruz dude. Works pretty good but it has an annoying latino hustler sound that really annoys the hell out of me. As the perfect idealogue for being the hustler you are, any ideas on what that could be?
jesus did not exist before this did:
http://wakullasprings.org/
God @TheTweetOfGod 2m
When something bad happens to you, know that I did not cause it, for I do not care about you enough to cause you harm.
Why are y'all over here messing with the trolls when there are other worthy threads you could be spending your time contributing to? Are Sibby and Cruz just too wacko to resist? I'll admit to having restrain myself from feeding the trolls, it's just too easy and sometimes fun. Oh well, at least you are keeping them busy over here and they are not bothering with some of the other stories which do not interest them. So a big thank you from Jessie!
Jessie, its like scratching an insect bite. The more you scratch, the more you need to scratch.
The Blindman
Hmmmm, so maybe we should just paint over them with clear nail polish?
Jessie, if Richard Benda had been gay, every EB-5 post would get 100 comments, and every voter would be talking about it. Damn. Someone find me a homosexual involved in EB-5!
Cory, Cory. ...shakes head sadly .... they wouldn't be discussing EB-5, they would be discussing Christianity like they are here!
Angelo My friend tells me there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Like I said not a dime's worth.
Aaron, drawing an analogy between Alfson and Sibson is specious and incorrect. Alfson is not trying to co-opt any conversation and drive it to his preferred topics. Alfson is also not wrong. My critique of Sibby is not simply that he's a right-winger. He degrades public conversation with futile ninny-parsing and attempts to define Christian as "nobody other than Jesus and me".
Bill, so exactly what is your point in bringing up the lives of these sinners?
The Bible is filled with men & women who sinned greatly.
Now, allow me to give you the Good News: anyone who sins, including you and me, have a wonderful opportunity in being forgiven our sins and would be permitted access into Glory for the asking by merely doing two simple things - repenting and accepting Jesus.
Isn't that beautiful Bill?
Angelo, if that is true, you and Mr. Ramos better not use any of the suggestions I offered to you about Mr. Ramos when he goes before the parole Board again.
You would not want to accept anything from someone you think has a soul that is "on the balance." You might get pulled along. LOL LOL LOL
I'm getting the feeling that our friend Angelo here gets his jollies from chain yankin.
Bill
*Sibby everyone needs to relax and take the time to just laugh.*
I agree!
Enjoy & share.
as a catholic i merely have to walk into a confessional, confess my sins and promise to sin no more: republican party in a nuts shell.
JESUS KNOWS YOU'RE HERE!
A burglar broke into a house one night. He shined his flashlight around looking for valuables when a voice in the dark said, "Jesus knows you're here."
He nearly jumped out of his skin, clicked his flashlight off, and froze. When he heard nothing more, after a bit, he shook his head and continued.
Just as he pulled the stereo out so he could disconnect the wires, clear as a bell he heard, "Jesus is watching you."
Freaked out, he shined his light around frantically, looking for the source of the voice.
Finally, in the corner of the room, his flashlight beam came to rest on a parrot.
"I'm just trying to warn you that Jesus is watching you."
The burglar relaxed. "Warn me, huh. Who in the world are you?"
"Moses," replied the parrot.
"Moses?" the burglar laughed. "What kind of people would name a parrot Moses?"
"The kind of people that would name a Rottweiler Jesus."
steve......are you for real? maybe the people who wrote the new testiment read the old one and made it fit. also its full of contradictions. not to mention advocating violence.
Steve aren't you aware that the Bible says "judge not, lest ye be judged?" You seem to have done a good job of judging Nathen Alfson. I would be willing to bet you know or are maybe even related to somebody that is gay and aren't even aware of it. If you were aware that somebody close to you was gay, how would you treat that person.
"Alfson is not trying to co-opt any conversation and drive it to his preferred topics."
Cory,
Alfson is trying to co-opt Christianity and drive it into apostasy. Christians have a Biblical obligation to speak up against so-called Christians who promote another Gospel and another Jesus. But you a correct. Those of us who do speak up will be ridiculed and forced to shut up. The bullies will call us bullies. Hypocrites.
Jesus slept with the Apostles: nuff said.
http://kevinwhiteman.com/2014/02/the-myth-of-the-metrosexual-jesus/
Now everybody get your adult beverage, smoke it if you got it, wink three times, touch the right side of your nose with your pointer finger, and repeat this mantra.
CHURCH. OF BILL
CHURCH. OF BILL
CHURCH OF. BILL
Nope, it didn't work for me either so I guess we wont be doing that at "THE CHURCH OF BILL."
However, we will take any and all the money you can send us.
Please call BR 549
And say why not catch our magic bus to the church and save some gas. Here's Pete Townshend to tell you all about it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rfL4MlEIB4Q
The Blindman
What? To much?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-11uvUTT_ClQ/UIxfG8YGl1I/AAAAAAAABgY/jKlUxBmw5gM/s1600/no_no_no_you_hold_it_like_this.jpg
More church music from THE CHURCH OF BILL.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yymadwxj8.
The Blindman
Time to get to my pedal pushin. Miles to go before I sleep.
Here's one for the road from the queen of soul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1eSiso7VZs
Angelo Cruz2014.08.07 AT 19:10
Bad acid trip man, or just more religious claptrap.
I believe I'll pass.
The Blindman
Barry, ya like that.
The Blindman
Two ladies riding their bikes around the townsquare,cobblestoned street. The first lady said she had never come this way before,the second lady assured her it was the cobblestones what done it.
Mike, is that the kind of stuff they teach in Iwigii
The Blindman
That is all they teach. :)
I still like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQWtY30WfVg
Check this one out good stuff for an upcoming movie. http://videos.rawstory.com/video/Religious-scholar-Reza-Aslan-de
So, all of you bible thumpers out there and you know who you are, are you following the message of Frank or are you full of bullshit? http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-put-the-needs-of-the-poor-ahead-of-our-own/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz39cphZDVn
Jerry, Pope Francis is a Neo-Marxist like you (google the Jesuit liberation theology). He is among those leading the apostasy.
the leader of the world's largest christian cult is an apostate and sibby has a following of one: NPD in a nut's shell.
Steve, the majority Christians of this nation are not being bullied by a few homosexuals who are asking not to be bullied. This hypersensitive persecution complex lacks connection to reality. It also insults victims of real persecution and oppression. There is no plot. There is no gay crusade to destroy Christianity. Christianity's worst enemy is "Christians" like you. (But remember, under Steve's logic, no one is a Christian. Poof!)
revision: nut's hell.
Steve, don't you think it's time to admit who you really are? Don't be afraid. You really don't have to suffer in silence.
Jenny's right, Steve: praying yourself straight is clearly comorbid with your christianity.
"But remember, under Steve's logic, no one is a Christian. Poof!"
No Cory. My argument is that there are two types of Christians. Those who follow the Bible and those who don't. The former have a Biblical Christian worldview, and the latter are fakes/apostates. I would admit that there seems to be far fewer Biblical Christians than the fakes. And the fakes can be found on both sides of the political spectrum, right and left. Ted Haggard would be an example of a fake right winger, and Deb would be an example of one from the left side.
In regard to the issue of homosexuality, many fakes on the right attack homosexuals, while those fakes on the left that work to make the immoral behavior fit some kind of Christian moral worldview, of which I argue does not fit Biblical principles. I am trying to have both sides see the Biblical worldview position. I believe the link at provided at the top provided others who are doing the same:
http://rethinkingtheology.com/2013/02/15/homosexual-born-again-christians-they-do-exist/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox
Sibby, I see that in the link you provided, the writer makes the assumption that homosexuality is an acquired responce and that assumption has been proven to be false. By uuseing that reasoning, the rest of your responce is flawed.
Lets face it, you have been preprogrammed to believe that being gay is a choice. That would only be true if that person was a pervert, or so you say. In the real world most of us understand, that you are "born gay," you dont just decide one day to have a go at someone that is your own sex.
As long as you continue to cling to beliefs that have been proven to be false, you will have trouble quantifying your conclusions in any attempt to change other peoples minds.
The truth will set you free Sib, stop hiding under the robe.
The Blindman
"I see that in the link you provided, the writer makes the assumption that homosexuality is an acquired responce and that assumption has been proven to be false."
Bill, I know a man who got 3 different women pregnant in 14 months, then convicted of statutory rape of a female, and then comes out of prison with a boyfriend, which did not last very long and the guy was back chasing women. Tell me this guy's problem is not a product of the New Age religion.
http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-sexual-addiction/000748
http://www.reuniting.info/science/porn_addiction_wired_for_sexual_addiction
Sibby, why on earth are you telling us about some man in prison? We don't really care what his sexual preferences are, as long as they're not underage and they are of mutual consent.
Were you attracted to this man? It makes me wonder.. .....
Sibson would like to go to prison.
Sibby,here is your problem and it is your's alone. Spend way less time trying to do HIS job and spend more time trying to do HIS work. That and a spoonfull of baking soda will give you a better disposition and outlook on life.
This recent Salon article may provide an explanation for Sibby's enthusiastic evangelical worldview.
http://www.salon.com/2014/08/08/the_shocking_discovery_about_evangelical_christianity_that_i_made_after_becoming_a_father_partner/
Sibson's prison guy is likely bi-sexual. Duh!
Can I ask a question?
If a person believes that homosexual fornication is a grave sin and opposes extending the privilege of marriage to same sex couples, is that person a "homophobe", intolerant and a bully of homosexuals?
bcb-are you suggesting that Sibby is Russian AND adopted?
Troy, permit me to suggest that bullying requires action, not mere belief. Let's see where that statement leads....
And besides, Sibster knows darn well he's asking for it when he goes on his anti-gay tirades on Cory's blog.
I dunno Troy, are you describing yourself?
Troy, I think a miscegenation question might be helpful in answering your gay marriage question.
If a person believes in Biblical concepts of racial purity and that inter-racial marriage is a grave sin and opposes extending the privilege of marriage to persons of different races, is that person a "racist", intolerant and a bully of racial minorities?
I see no issue with the "thinking" part, as we will all think whatever we want. But the "opposition" to inter-racial marriage strikes me as more of an action than a thought, depending on what the individual does to oppose such marriages, such as supporting laws against inter-racial marriages, which I would view as bullying other people.
mike, I realize your question about being Russian etc is tongue in cheek. But seriously, someone who may have been raised like the author of the story would believe in human sin and worthlessness, requiring submission to and redemption from the Bible's God. And after being raised that way, perhaps he or she would not recognize the residual personal harm from being taught self-loathing. Instead, he or she might desire to convince others to also hate themselves and seek forgiveness from God.
Now I can't say whether that someone is or is not Sibby, but it does seem that many of his comments contain extremely derogatory language aimed at those who have a different religious perspective. And one function of name-calling and derogatory language is to damage self-esteem.
"If a person believes in Biblical concepts of racial purity and that inter-racial marriage is a grave sin"
There is no discussion of races in the Bible. From Genesis we know we are all one race.
"Troy, permit me to suggest that bullying requires action, not mere belief."
That is right Cory, so Jenny, Mike, Larry, Bill, and Jerry's actions on this thread is bullying.
"but it does seem that many of his comments contain extremely derogatory language aimed at those who have a different religious perspective"
BCB, my positions are based on the Bible as a standard, while the rest of you base your positions on yourselves.
"We don't really care what his sexual preferences are, as long as they're not underage and they are of mutual consent."
Jenny, do you not know what statutory rape is, besides that it was the reason the guy was thrown into prison?
http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/terrible-parts-of-the-bible-part-5-racism/
larry, thanks for the link!
bat, i'm going to miss the internet after judgment day.
Bearcreekbat,
Nice attempt to use a logic fallacy (red herring) to avoid the question utilizing another logic fallacy (false analogy).
Race is not about behavior. Answer the question if you can.
Jenny, does your answer change if I'm describing myself? How is that relevant? Simple question.
Larry, your link is a false witness against the Bible. God was protecting the people against the idolatry that was practiced by their neighbors. Has nothing to do with racism. Remember that all came from Adam & Eve...one race.
"Troy, permit me to suggest that bullying requires action, not mere belief."
Just like homosexuality, pedophilia, and polygamy. The sexual immorality requires action, not mere belief that you are one of the above. Right Cory?
Ketamine study, Sib. Bone up:
http://namisouthdakota.org/nimh-multimedia/
No mention of hootchie kootchie poochie,Sibby?
Give it up, Sibby. Admit it, you have an obsession with homosexuality that is causing MVT commenters to seriously question your preferences.
Larry, are you ready for Biblical truth:
So how could the Moabites have Israel destroyed? They could do it from within. It would be from sexual immorality with the Moabites. What happened was exactly what God had predicted would happen to Israel if they mixed with another nation. “While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the LORD’s anger burned against them” (Num 25:1-3). Their interrelations by their sexual immorality turned their hearts to idolatry as they bowed down before false gods and turned their heart away from the One True God. This however had nothing to do with mixing of the races. It had to do with mixing of the pagan nations and Israel (who believed in God). God was not concerned that they would intermarry with other nations because of their race but because of their tendency to follow other nation’s idols and worship false gods. This was not God banning interracial marriage but forbidding Israel from becoming entangled in false religions and thus being unequally yoked with pagan unbelievers.
Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-interracial-dating-and-marriage/#ixzz39q0FyBfV
So the lesson for today: Biblical Christians should not be yoking up with New Age pagans, such as those who promote sexual immorality. It has nothing to do with skin color.
Jenny, I think you may have just broken the Madville Times record on the number of times being wrong on a thread. Statutory rape is in regard to underage sex. Are you against underage sex because deep down inside, you want to do it? (question is based on your logic)
Old Age Pagan might be a better description, Steve. There is an aspen community under Utah that is far older than the Abrahamic god and if the Anthropocene doesn't kill us off first we're headed there to visit.
Face it Sibson, you're a neo-communist apostate.
http://wonkette.com/556660/good-christian-male-seeks-loving-canine-companion-for-long-walks-on-the-beach-buttsex
Does the wife know about the gay obsession, Sib?
Troy, I didn't intend a red herring argument. I think that if you will reflect a bit more, perhaps you might be able to see why I thought the issue of gay marriage is exactly like the issue of inter-racial marriage. They both deal with behavior.
The objected to behaviors involved include:
Getting married.
Engaging in marital sex.
Now, those who oppose gay marriage oppose the behavior - getting married -of two men or two women who want to get married.
Those who oppose inter-racial marriage oppose the behavior - getting married - of a man or woman of one race marrying someone of a different race.
Those who oppose gay marriage object to behavior - intimacy between a same sex couple.
The same holds true for those who oppose inter-racial marriage, they object to behavior - intimacy between people of different races.
The difference is that opponents of gay marriage base their opposition on Biblical teachings that intimacy between two men is a sin.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Gay-Marriage/
Many of those who oppose inter-racial marriage justify their opposition based on Biblical direction to keep the races separate.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/marracbib.htm
While the reasons for trying to prevent two people from marrying might be different - race & sexual preference - the idea is exactly the same. So to answer your question, when an opponent of either type of marriage goes beyond thought and acts on his or her objection by supporting laws or other behaviors that are intended to keep the couple apart, I would consider this to be racist and homophobic, and in either case intolerant and bullying.
Bearcreekbat,
First, you repeat your red herring logic fallacy and then extend it to bigotry. Some liberals capacity to reason intelligently and be tolerant is certainly lacking, egotistical self-claims not withstanding.
Some religionist's capacity to reason intelligently and be tolerant is certainly lacking, egotistical self-claims not withstanding.
religionists'
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/demographics/south-dakota/appendix-0909-41/
http://www.aclusd.org/lgbt-rights.html
Troy, I don't understand your comment? Here are examples of red herring arguments.
http://www.redherringexamples.com/
My comment did not change the subject nor bring in an irrelevant topic. Rather, I simply compared two different objections to granting a couple the right to get married. I did this because both objections were enshrined in law until courts finally ruled the objections unconstitutional.
Your response that "Some liberals capacity to reason intelligently and be tolerant is certainly lacking, egotistical self-claims not withstanding" is confusing and seems irrelevant to the question you asked. Rather than address my comments or explain why you think they constitute a red herring, you respond with apparent insults and name calling.
If you feel that behaviors that you think are sinful should be outlawed even though such behaviors have absolutely no effect on you, while other religions and atheists don't even consider the behavior sinful, what does that say about your tolerance?
Here is a real red herring - the biggest sins of all are violating the ten commandments. Do you think there should also be laws that discriminate against people who worship the wrong God, or fail to keep the Sabbath holy, or take the Lord's name in vain, or make graven images? If not, why do you want to outlaw one sin that is not even mentioned in the ten commandments - same sex marriage, but not the much worse sins explicitly prohibited by the ten commandments?
Sibby,if we walked past each other and said f%^k you,that would be verbal sex between 2 males. Is that homosexual verbal sex and would your lord damn you to hell for it? Or,since I'm pretty much straight,would that be considered bi-sexual- homosexual verbal sex and would you still be damned for it? What say your god?
"While the reasons for trying to prevent two people from marrying might be different - race & sexual preference - the idea is exactly the same."
Your racial assessment is anti-Biblical and not Biblical. You read the Bible, but you are twisting it. What you view as racial is actually God's response to pagan sexual immorality, which includes homosexuality.
"I did this because both objections were enshrined in law until courts finally ruled the objections unconstitutional."
BCB,
As is pedophilia, polygamy, and bestiality. Does your red herring justify those marriages?
I have never advocated homosexual acts should be made illegal. In fact, I would oppose such a law.
Troy, if Nathan Alfson finds a loving lifetime partner, would marrying him be a homosexual act?
Troy, it is great that you would opposing making homosexual acts illegal. Following up on my red herring question, then, do you oppose marriage between individuals who worship the wrong God, or fail to keep the Sabbath holy, or take the Lord's name in vain, or make graven images?
Bearcat,
I have no idea why you keep bringing up these false analogies. They are irrelevant.
What you appear to be doing is you want to assert a ill- motive or a character defect on one who disagrees with you on these issues to justify yourself. It then allows you to dismiss their argument if one is "intolerant and a homophobe" or being a bully.
Cory,
No. These are two separate issues. What one thinks is sinful (thoughts and deeds can both be sinful) and what is marriage.
Thank you Sibby for mentioning poochie hoochie koochie,finally. I knew you couldn't resist.
Troy comes to Madville just to pick a fight for his own gratificatiion: how conservative.
Troy's religious cult, Sibby's former, has made sex with children a sacrament yet they've chosen to deride love among two consenting adults: pathetic really.
Well, that ad hominem doesn't move the discussion forward at all. Troy comes here with more good will and less delusion that Sibby.
Troy, your last answer did seem unclear. Is one man marrying another man a homosexual act? Or does that question hinge around faulty semantics and the definition of "marrying"?
Troy isn't interested in answers, Cory; he came here to assail somebody's civil rights using religious bigotry as his guide.
Rather than using the miscegenation argument one could just as easily say obese people or the developmentally disable should not couple.
"Troy comes here with more good will and less delusion that Sibby."
Sad that confronting falsehoods in regard to Biblical truth is not good will and instead delusions. One who promotes a pagan New Age worldview, which includes sexual immorality of all types, should not be allowed to call it Christianity without a challenge. These people are causing more damage to Christianity than atheists because atheists use these so-called Christians to deceived the masses and the children of Biblical Christians via the government schools. They should not be allowed to further those deceptions in private schools if the intent of those schools is to provide a Biblical Christian worldview. That is no more intolerant than banning the Gideons from government schools.
Troy, The reason I bring these analogies up is to try to understand the basis of your objection to same sex marriage. As best I could tell, many Christians object to such marriages and seeks to outlaw them is because of a belief that homosexual thoughts or acts are a sin according to the Bible.
If that is the case, then I cannot help but wonder why Christians do not object to marriages between other more conspicuous sinners, such as those who violate explicit admonitions in the ten commandments. Maybe you are unable to tell me why marriage between two gay individuals ought to be outlawed, while marriage between two atheists who take the Lord's name in vain or fail to keep the Sabbath holy etc is okay with you. I would guess your inability to address that may be because there is no rational reason for Christians to condemn one sinner, and give full approval to another sinner, based only on the type of sin committed. Thus I cannot help but wonder why in the world should most sinners be permitted to marry while you would single out only one group of sinners and seek to establish laws that deny them the same legal rights as all other sinners.
I doubt that most opponents of same sex marriage have either an "a ill- motive or a character defect." Rather, it seems that perhaps they have never reflected on the irrationality and inconsistency of their position that this one sin deserves more serious sanctions than all others. I would have much greater respect for the idea that no sinner should be permitted to marry, since that position is at least consistent. But why pick out one sin among the myriad of sins available to choose from to justify a law that does not permit two loving adults to marry?
And I told you that I only consider acting on a belief that discriminates against others to be intolerance or bullying. Believing that same sex marriage is wrong, and deciding not to marry someone of the same sex, seems a valid personal choice and does not establish intolerance or bullying in my view. Enacting laws to prohibit two consenting adults with completely different viewpoints from marrying someone they love based solely on your view of what is sinful, however, seems quite intolerant and bullying.
Troy, I assume you consider all fornication to be a grave sin, am I correct? All sexual inter course between people not married to one another? If so, then there would be no prejudice or discrimination.
Unless of course you define sexual intercourse as only being possible between a male and a female, which, strictly speaking, some people would.
But you would likely use a term other than fornication if thTs what you meant, since you certainly possess sufficient vocabulary.
Care to clarify? Because a proper answer to your question depends on an understanding how you are using your terms.
In my above note, I am only addressing the first part of Troy's question regarding fornication. (Deconstructed, his appears to be a two part, or perhaps even a three part question.)
"Rather, it seems that perhaps they have never reflected on the irrationality and inconsistency of their position that this one sin deserves more serious sanctions than all others."
And that cuts both ways. Why are gay marriage advocates not standing up for marriage of pedophiles and polygamists.
It doesn't cut both ways, Sibby. It cuts to the point one way, and pounds sand down a rathole the other way. No one here is even remotely interested in defending a pedophile's right to exploit and abuse a child.
Everyone has to pick his/her own battles. If you believe that pedophiles should be allowed to marry children, then you need to stand up for them instead of expecting someone else do it for you.
Adult pedophiles can marry another adult pedophiles.
Adult pedophiles cannot marry children because 1. in the eyes of the law, having sex with a minor is considered child abuse, 2. Minors under the age of 16 have to have consent of their parent, guardian, or whom ever is legally responsible for the child, for them to marry, and 3. Minors under the age of 18 cannot legally enter into a any legal contract, which a civil marriage is, a legal contract.
No one, I would hope not anyway, would approve of abusing children.
Polygamists is a different topic. There may come a time when it will be legal to have multiple spouses, and they will be able to enter into a civil legal contract.
People who are gay are not going to seek a marriage ceremony at a church where they know that they are not welcomed, nor considered "good enough." The same would be true of those who want multiple spouses.
"No one here is even remotely interested in defending a pedophile's right to exploit and abuse a child."
Sure you do, it is called sex education in the government schools. They are leftists in Planned Parenthood who argue children have sexual rights. What grade did this guy say he became gay?
That's a lie, Steve and you're a liar.
Time to go to the vet,Sibby. You are one sick puppy.
Go away Sibby. Nobody likes you here. Bye, bye.
Human sexuality is taught in parochial schools throughout the US.
If you, parents, grandparents, and others are concerned about what is being taught at public or private schools, there is the option of "home schooling." There are some people who do that, even the couple that have the program of "19 Kids and Growing" home school their kids.
I do not think that the young man in question said what age he "became gay," people do not become gay, they just are. Just like heterosexuals, and those who are asexual just are. He reached a point in his life that he was able to acknowledge his sexuality, come to terms with it, and learned to live with it.
Christofascists come to Madville just to make up outrageous shit up and watch out heads twist off.
edit before posting, kurtz.
if i wanted to read a christian fucking blog i'd go to a christian fucking website.
Boy, aren't you people glad that Sibby isn't representing SD in Pierre?
Bill,
You are correct. Multi part question.
Bear,
You are putting words into my mouth and persist despite me making it clear I oppose criminalizing an act i might consider a sin. I am not a theocrat.
And, you can answer my question without my reason on opposing gay marriage. Am I a homophobe or intolerant (the bully should be clearly put to rest).
Sin is a metaphorical concept developed by clergy to frighten people into tithing: nothing more.
The body of law based on the US Constitution is not a religious instrument. The Roman Catholic Church bullies its donors to further an agenda dependent on terror.
Frank the First is likely a Borgia pope, a homophobe who collaborated with Fascists in Argentina: catholics should be very afraid.
Troy, I would sincerely like you to respond to my questions, and I assume that if you expect me to respond to your questions you would accord me this request.
I am a bit confused about your position on whether you advocate laws to prohibit same sex marriage. If you don't think that there should be laws preventing consenting same sex adults from getting married, then I fully respect your right to have an opinion differing from mine and I am unwilling to give you a derogatory label. In my view it is the act of trying to use the law, in other words the force of the state, to marginalize in any way same sex couples that gives me pause and tempts me to label someone.
Here you go Sibson, Troy, the cruz dude and whoever thinks like you crazy kids, here is your boy Bryan's latest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkwEFjHxCFs#t=42
How nuts is nuts? I dunno, but after reading some of your posts, I think pretty nuts.
" Sin is a metaphorical concept developed by clergy to frighten people into tithing: nothing more."
Does that mean you can actually buy "Sterway To Heaven?"
The Blindman
Troy, it seems to me that a gay person's only (non-sinning) option for sexual fulfillment under your scenario would be to marry outside the church and pray that the church leaders will someday reevaluate church position.
Not sure how realistic it is to expect people of any sexual orientation to refrain from sex until marriage, but given that the church doesn't recognize gay marriage anyway, it leaves non-heteros in a double bind. The only way a gay person can get to heaven would be to live a life of abstinence. Either that, or get married outside the church and go to confession a lot. ;-)
Of course, another way around the issue is to be very meticulous about how 'fornication' is defined. If defined narrowly, it would be impossible for gay people to do it (for anatomical reasons).
By daily Bible read today was 1 Corinthians 6. This is for those who believe that they can be Christian and promote the gay agenda:
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Sexual Immorality
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
well, there is that.
Pfizer, Monsanto and Dow ain't the Holy Trinity, init?
Barkeep: two hydrogens and an oxygen, please.