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South Dakota Dems’ Last Base: Indians and Atheists?

While the next executive director of the South Dakota Democratic Party tells me that Democrats need to embrace God and guns, pollster Paul Nielson tells Todd Epp that we Democrats lost the Catholic vote this time out:

“If you’re evangelical Christian, you’ll almost certainly vote Republican,” Nielson said. “A mainline Protestant, probably a little more Republican than Democrat. Roman Catholic has tended to be more Democratic, but actually in this election, they went more Republican, according to our polling, toward the end, which was a really bad sign for Democrat[s]” [Todd Epp, "In South Dakota, Is Religion Electoral Destiny?" Northern Plains News, 2014.11.16].

Who's left for us Dems?

For Democrats, according to Nielson, about the only clear constituencies they won in this month’s election were reservation-based Native Americans and non-religiously affiliated voters [Epp, 2014.11.16].

Atheists and Indians—I think we're still outnumbered, Sundance!


  1. larry kurtz 2014.11.17

    Warning: Sibby bait.

  2. Steve Sibson 2014.11.17

    So you guys should continue to promote now much South Dakotans hate women, colors, and gays?

  3. Nick Nemec 2014.11.17

    You called that Kurtz.

  4. Bill Fleming 2014.11.17

    Did Neilson ever get around to publishing their poll on the Senate race? I wouldn't draw any conclusions on how people voted in a year where voter turnout just barely topped 50%.

    Did I hear some national source say that voter turnout this cycle is the lowest it's been since the 1920’s? That's perhaps what we should be working on. Why have we the people decided that we are no longer interested in participating in government?

  5. jerry 2014.11.17

    I would say that we Weiland voters are in good company then and show that it is us who care about the future of this state and this country. It only goes to show that Catholics are no different from any of the other religions in their promotion their agenda, whatever the hell that is. Anyone know? What is it that Catholics and the rest of the affiliated religions want? Could it be a theocracy? Nope, because that would entail honesty and we certainly do not want to go there. Could it possibly be some kind of deep resentment towards the President of the United States for some un-christian reason that we all just can't see? What is it about Natives that is different from the majority of South Dakotans that has the same kind of hue to it as POTUS?

  6. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    As long as voters equate Republicanism with Christianity, they will never vote outside of their comfort zone. In their eyes, a vote against a Republican is a vote against their faith. I would prefer those folks keep their religion in their homes and their churches, and keep it out of our government.

  7. o 2014.11.17

    SDBlue, there was a piece a while back that discussed the error in allowing the Republicans to have "family values" uncontested. Instead, that piece said that Democrats needed to step up and claim their positions and issues as "family values." Ideas of christian charity decent respect for people are "family values," good stewardship of our resources are "family values," respect for work and value of that work to ensure a successful future are "family values," education is a "family value."

    I suppose may of the traditional GOP positions could also be painted as anti-family value.

    The Democrats need to lean into this debate, not shy from it.

  8. jerry 2014.11.17

    Here is what the Christian vote supports.

    2.5 million homeless kids. I am sure they are proud of the choice they made in the booth. Stop abortion Stop abortion, so we can kill you later. Christians seem to enjoy watching people suffer. They certainly loved the Inquisition and still think that the hats worn at that time are in style today. Me, I think I will stick with the atheists as they have more moral fiber and character.

  9. 96Tears 2014.11.17

    o is exactly right. Democrats can define what matters most to families better than Republicans. Christians who think their mission to the poor, elderly, the infirm and children means more than the repression of reproductive rights need to stand up and be counted.

  10. Les 2014.11.17

    Is it only up to Christians to help the homeless.? Abortion is legal and we have homeless. Is that the Dems fault? I do not blame you for problems of your party, stop blaming me for problems of both parties.

  11. Jana 2014.11.17

    SDBlue, it's funny that you pose it that way. I became a Democrat because of my faith. You know that whole Beatitudes thing Matthew 5:1-12 and Matthew 25:44.

    Let's just be the party of doing the right thing and telling that story very well.

    Besides, last time I checked, greed is a sin. Now let's review: Big business has bought and paid for the GOP because they are trying to be Christ like?

  12. jerry 2014.11.17

    No, it is not up to the Christians to do anything but be knowledgeable citizens. Why do they vote to suppress such things as Veterans work programs? If those were in place, it would cut down drastically on social issues. For that matter, why do the vote to not support opportunities to advance economic change that would not only help the workforce, but also the infrastructure of the state. With these issues satisfied, most of the social issues would not be so rampant.

    Why do they support not having a Surgeon General to oversee such things as Ebola along with education in sexual education and availability of birth control. The list goes on. Why is that?

  13. Les 2014.11.17

    Are you sure those are Christians, Jerry?

  14. jerry 2014.11.17

    Les, the homelessness going along with racial divides, walking hand in hand with the rest of the social injustices are blamed rightfully on the republican party, your party Les. You own it. Your party could change it in a heartbeat but they choose not to. Why is that? Slave labor, just like before the civil war. Same thing as we have now.

  15. jerry 2014.11.17

    I will clarify. Republicans one way or another.

  16. Les 2014.11.17

    I am a catholic. Am I responsible for the church? We both live in SD, Jerry. You don't like it when I say you are responsible for your party's failure to provide a two party system. I say you are just as responsible for your party's failure as I am for my party's corruptions.

  17. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    Les, why should religion determine whether or not you help your fellow human beings? One can be giving, compassionate and caring and not subscribe to religion. The problem lies with the party who touts "christian family values" and then does everything in their power to make sure government serves those in the top income brackets first, and the lowest of the low, last or not at all.

  18. Les 2014.11.17

    Where did I say it should, blue?

  19. Les 2014.11.17

    Les said, "is it only up to the Christians to help the homeless?"

  20. Les 2014.11.17

    Agreed, Lar.

  21. 96Tears 2014.11.17

    Pope Francis doesn't even hold onto the Dark Ages views of the church. God was not a magician waving a magic wand at creation, and humans evolved as life on earth evolved. That answer opened up a book full of questions. One needing to be asked is "does the human zygote come equipped with a soul and intelligence?" I believe that would come under the God with a magic wand statement.

    Popes are infallible, right?

    As long as we're running down the rabbit hole of reality vs. surreal ...

  22. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    Jana, as a Recovering Catholic, I submit I grew up to be a tolerant, caring, compassionate adult, not because of my religious upbringing, but in spite of it.

  23. jerry 2014.11.17

    Glad that you are a Catholic and a Republican, how does that work I wonder? Your new boss disagrees with you Les. Frank says that you are your brothers keeper, more or less, yet you disregard. Catholics just proved in this last election that they completely reject the Pope's word and work. So, now you are free to mingle with the rest of the crew that disagree with him also. One big party of non thinkers going back to the good old days of the 1400's. Hey, I know, you guys ought to build a cathedral someplace that would be for all you Catholic and non Catholic. You could then indigent workers and pay them a cup of gruel for their labor.

    The Christian Right, of which it looks like you belong to, go on record as wanting church and state to be one. They want to control the textbooks that the children read, they want to control the bodies of women, they want to control the workplace all under the authority of their religious beliefs. History has shown us that does not work, so they want to rewrite it.

  24. Les 2014.11.17

    Doesn't compassion come from the experiences that force us to recognize the need, blue.?

  25. Les 2014.11.17

    Jerry continues to dig. You will soon hit oil, Jerry and think of how wealty you could be if you were not drowning in it. Answer my statement of why I'm responsible for my party failures and you're not, for your party failing to provide a balance in SD.

  26. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    Les, my compassion comes from educating myself regarding the plight of those less fortunate in our country. I didn't need religion to teach me that.

  27. Les 2014.11.17

    This party talk sounds like something out of the 3rd Reich. Intimidation only works when you have the power to enforce it, Jerry. Your party has failed on all accounts.

  28. Les 2014.11.17

    You keep putting words in my mouth, blue. Read my words. "Doesn't compassion come from experiences."......

  29. Bill Dithmer 2014.11.17

    When a Christian walks away from the outhouse, we know for a fact that he left the same thing in there the atheist did twenty minutes earlier.

    The similarities end there. While the atheist leaves feeling lighter and with a clear mind, the Christian is still full of it, as are the Muslims, the Mormons, the Catholics, and the Jews.

    If I left your 501-c out just fill in the spaces to fit your circumstances.

    Did I just say that?

    Yes I did.

    The Blindman

  30. Bill Fleming 2014.11.17

    Les, nobody knows where compassion (a.k.a. altruism) comes from. If you were to uncover it's fundamental source in the human genome and be able to replicate it at will, you would win the Nobel Peace prize and save humanity from itself. I wish you all the best. But first, start by repeating after me: "I. Don't. Know." Then work it out from there. Good luck. :-)

  31. Jana 2014.11.17

    And Les jumps the shark!

  32. Les 2014.11.17

    I,think you have that backwards, Bill. The Christian will not follow an atheist to poop. At least not in an outhouse where it's not flushed alll clean.

  33. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    Les, I think you missed my point. I didn't need religion to teach me how to be compassionate. Had I based my compassion solely on my experiences with the Catholic church, I wouldn't have any.

  34. Les 2014.11.17

    I don't know when a zygote get his spirit or soul. I don't know when a ......

  35. Les 2014.11.17

    I didn't miss your point, blue. You directed the comment to me and I said nothing of religion.

  36. jerry 2014.11.17

    What it all boils down to is this. It is the economy stupid. The economy sucks and has for some time now. Obama brought life into it, but it is failing with the social seams coming unglued with the happy fingers of republican voters thinking that it is because of the social benefits they actually benefit from. The republicans gleefully supply the scissors for the cutting of the moral fabric that has somehow managed to hold this all together, but make no mistake, it is being ripped to shreds by the voting patterns we are now seeing.

    I see problems ahead when the livestock industry slows and the cattle prices take the dump that they are cycled into doing, just like oil or any other commodity. When that happens, it may be to late for some to ever recover. Such is the legacy of the republican party and those that think they are the saviors. Grab that history book and look back to the 30's, that is our future, and thank a Christian for their vote.

  37. Les 2014.11.17

    Still no sponsobility for your party failing to keep balance in SD, Jerry? Gonna have to put a nipple on the ol scotch bottle for Ya.

  38. Bill Dithmer 2014.11.17

    Clear back forty years when i was in college, they tried to explain compassion to us in one of my classes. At the time they didnt know anything about the science of the genome but they thought that they had some sort of handle on the mind.

    This is how I remember it. Compassion was the result of the right brain and the left brain coming to a compromise. The amount of compassion was controlled by which side of the brain was more dominant.

    But then that was a long time ago, so I might just be crazy.

    The Blindman

  39. Les 2014.11.17

    SOunds like ur an idiot then, Lar. I think my compassion came when I got the $hit kicked out of me by cows, horses, classmates and my father. I knew how it felt and didn't put up with the bs happening to others. " I think ",!!

  40. Les 2014.11.17

    I voted against party corruption in the GOP primary. I spent a considerable amount of money fighting that corruption in the general. Call me what you will, but tell me Jerry, did you do as much?

  41. jerry 2014.11.17

    Good comeback to Larry's article Les. You really showed him a thing or two with New Mexico. The Democratic governor of that state must really be a putz. Right?

  42. Les 2014.11.17

    More links don't mean anything, Jerry. It's a Kurse thing for me.

  43. Les 2014.11.17

    Jerry, you and I sure have that timing down this morning. Twice on divine intelligence.

  44. Les 2014.11.17

    It'll be all better and the load will come off yur shoulders, Jerry. You can whisper it if you wish. "We have some responsibility for the mess our party is in, in good ol SD."

  45. Les 2014.11.17

    Once you admit the problem, you can start dealing with it. Somewhere in the 1-12.

  46. jerry 2014.11.17

    I put skin in the game Les, frog skins to be clear. What party are you wanting me whisper about? I am sure not a member of the Republican party and last I looked, they are embroiled in one hell of a mess here.

  47. jerry 2014.11.17

    I think it is clear from the writings on this blog that there are problems with getting the message to voters on how they just got fleeced again, only this time, for their future.

  48. Les 2014.11.17

    Your game Jerry. Hasa la vista. The day grows short.

  49. Steve Hickey 2014.11.17

    I just spoke on some of these things yesterday. Everywhere the missionaries went, the world became a better place -

    30 minutes long. I'm sure it'll really frustrate some of you.

  50. jerry 2014.11.17

    Here is something else Democrats bring to the table in economic terms for ranchers, Democrats or Republicans. See, that is how a democracy is supposed to work. Democrats get it with the process, while Republicans steal from it. Funny how that works.

  51. jerry 2014.11.17

    All the good people south of Texas, really appreciated the way the missionary's treated them after 1492. Nothing says progress like enslavement.

  52. jerry 2014.11.17

    You know, the way the Republican party treated Sgt. Bergdahl was another example of their pious intent. We all remember that fiasco, don't we? Talk about treating the military with respect, that was a doozy.

  53. Bill Dithmer 2014.11.17

    “We come from a world in the 21st century in which we assume that Biblical literalism, the notion that the Bible is literal and inerrant, is just sort of an inherent part of belief in the Bible. It isn’t. The concept of Biblical literalism, in the 2,000 year history of the New Testament, is a little more than 100 years old.”

    Absolutely a great read Larry Kurtz.

    So much for truth in advertising.

    The Blindman

  54. Patrick Duffy 2014.11.17

    The vitriolic ridicule heaped upon the Catholic Church whenever a discussion like this takes place is painful to read.

  55. jerry 2014.11.17

    Yes, indeed Mr. Duffy, but a discussion of this is what has been needed for some time. This is not just about the Catholic Church, it is how the republican party hijacked religion itself, all denominations except those they have chosen to hate. Sorry if this offends.

  56. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    Well, let's see Patrick. 1) Transferring pedophile priests to different parishes to cover up the abuse. 2) Allowing those who cheat on their spouses and abuse their kids during the week, to become lay ministers and hand out communion on Sunday morning. 3) Using religious doctrine to deny women reproductive rights and discriminate against the LGBT community. Shall I go on?

    I am old enough to remember being taught sex is for procreation only and Catholicism is the superior religion. I remember alcoholic priests with egos the size of Texas. I remember the kids from the Catholic schools who were more cruel than anyone I associated with in the public school system.

    Based on my experience, the ridicule justified.

  57. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    **is justified**

  58. Roger Cornelius 2014.11.17

    Democrats seem to have a larger problem with Evangelicals than they do with Catholics, especially our president.
    Hardly a week goes by when an evangelical Christian somewhere in this country calls for impeachment or death of our president.
    Evangelicals and their close association with the tea party are the one that hail shutting downing the government as a success and that denying Veterans benefits is the right thing to do to save the economy. And those food stamp recipients...................
    There is a significant number of Republican Party members that lack compassion except when it comes to themselves. I hesitate to label all Republicans as soulless, I know to many of them that are involved in the advancement of some social issues and serve their communities with generous acts of charity and their time.

  59. larry kurtz 2014.11.17

    There is talk of a plot running through the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to rule Pope Frank illegitimate and restore their boy, Ratzinger.

  60. Steve Hickey 2014.11.17

    Reza Aslan has no credibility among scholars of the Bible. He's a fraud, a Muslim and his degrees and to in Biblical studies. Fools take him seriously and those who are predisposed to hear anything that agrees with what thy already believe.

  61. Bill Dithmer 2014.11.17

    " The vitriolic ridicule heaped upon the Catholic Church whenever a discussion like this takes place is painful to read."

    Patrick, just imagine how those people that were bent over the alter by those people your church is protecting feel?

    If you want respect stop using the confessional as a stay out of prison card. And stop trying to pretend the Catholic Church is the same as the general public, you know better.

    I can and will change my mind on this the first time the Pope personally drags one of his priests down to the SO and brings the admission tape from that cofessional.

    The church has had years to fix the problem. But instead they choose to spend money shortening the time victims have to report abuse. Thats bullshit.

    A baby raper is a baby raper, it doesnt matter, priest, an indian chief, or the beauty queen, put em in prison with the general population and let them be on the receiving end.

    For anyone that doesnt believe this, you are juat as guilty as the man with the libido fueled but his very own kiddy porn playground hiding behind the rob of the catholic church.

    But then I guess that if you truly believe in your faith, those kids were insignificant. Anyway thats how it looks to the rest of us.

    The Blindman

  62. Steve Hickey 2014.11.17

    His degrees are not in Biblical studies. Forgive my typos.

  63. larry kurtz 2014.11.17

    Steve Hickey has no credibility among scholars of the Bible. He's a fraud, a psycho and his degrees and to in Biblical studies. Fools take him seriously and those who are predisposed to hear anything that agrees with what thy already believe.

  64. larry kurtz 2014.11.17

    President Jefferson edited the bible and read the Quran long before Aslan was born.

  65. Bill Dithmer 2014.11.17

    Steve Hickey is no better, his religion wants to control both a womans body, and her mind. These people are like the Sears catalog in the two hole outhouse. Would it be harder on your butt to use it, or not to use it?

    Honestly Steve, your bible thumping cridentials dont mean anymore to me then his does.

    Did I say that right?

    The Blindman

  66. Roger Cornelius 2014.11.17

    I don't ascribe to Dr. Reza Aslan's beliefs, but he appears imminently qualified to speak on religion as anybody else that claims to be a biblical scholar.

  67. Deb Geelsdottir 2014.11.17

    Well, well, well. Reza Aslan. I was trying to remember what I read about him and his book about Jesus. I think there was an expectation of attacks by right wing "Christians" who wouldn't like his conclusions. I recall writers felt that since he is Muslim, those same people would automatically attack him, based on the attacker's own biases. Looks like a bullseye on that one. (Of course that doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with Aslan is a Christianist. But the more vehement the attack, the more likely they are.)

    BTW, if you're wondering about the validity of Hickey's attack on Azlan, read Bills link.

  68. Bill Fleming 2014.11.17

    Here is the extent to which Reza Aslan is a Muslim (from the Wiki):

    "Aslan converted to evangelical Christianity at the age of 15,[6] and converted back to Islam the summer before attending Harvard.[7] In 2014, Aslan described Islam as: "a man-made institution. It’s a set of symbols and metaphors that provides a language for which to express what is inexpressible, and that is faith. It’s symbols and metaphors that I prefer, but it’s not more right or more wrong than any other symbols and metaphors. It’s a language, that’s all it is."[30]"

  69. Deb Geelsdottir 2014.11.17

    One of the difficulties in attacking an extremely large group, like Christians, is that inaccuracies are guaranteed. Of course there are lots of good, decent, kind Christians who do not deserve to be so hurtfully treated as some comments here. However, it's very rare that their voices are heard. That's due chiefly to conservative power of the media, the quest for ratings, and everyone's favorite - money/power.

    The "Christians" getting all the quotes are the ones lusting after their own personal gods - money/power. Religion is just a tool, only valuable in contributing more money and power. I think few can be as immoral as the vermin who use that which is most precious to others as a cruel tool.

    The millions of us who oppose thone charlatans/vermin work very hard to be heard, contribute dearly from our resources, time and energy to be more Christ like in whatever feeble way we can. Because we aren't getting attention where's doesn't mean we don't exist.

    Those of you who like to point out the failures of Christianity throughout history and now, have at it. It's important and needs to be done. It's the lumping all Christians together that's the problem. That's no less prejudicial than lumping all Muslims in with the Taliban or ISIL.

    Violent, terrorist Muslims are sometimes called "Islamists." A variety of sources I've read have begun using the word "Christianists" to refer to people who profess Christianity but whose behavior seems anything but. I hope you will give that a try on Madville. I know I'd appreciate it, and I'm sure other Christians will to. Thanks, my sister and brother Madizens.

  70. Bill Fleming 2014.11.17

    Key for me is the idea of "provid[ing] a language for which to express what is inexpressible..."

    As I have noted before, I agree with this position, because of the sheer, airtight logic of it. If what we mean by "God" is The ONE, or the Absolute, then there is nothing that is NOT God. And the mere act of trying to describe the entity divides and objectifies that which can neither be divided nor objectified. "One" by definition is indivisible. And therefore, unspeakable.

  71. Joe Lowe 2014.11.17

    Our party is a great party. We need to stop letting the Republicans drive the narrative, both in Pierre and the nation. During the election, all of the people running for office ran from our President. All we heard about was the failed policies of this President.
    I am on vacation in a foreign country and here are some facts from memory. They are as follows:
    1. The unemployment rate is around 2.9% . It was 10% when he took office.
    2. The stock market was at about 17,000 around October 8th. When he took office it was around 7000.
    3. 10.3 million people have signed up for the Affordable Care Act.
    I could go with other accomplishments. Cory has post the link to the Rolling Stone article. Cory maybe you could give your readers the link again.
    We need to be proud of our party All of us need to start calling the Republicans out when the are making up the facts. Until we do this ,we will continue to let them drive the conversations and lose elections.

  72. mike from iowa 2014.11.17

    Who the hell cares about religion? Religious leaders lie and spread falsehoods as much or more than wingnuts.

  73. Owen 2014.11.17

    I believe Mr. Lowe is right but the problem is that Democrats don't have the money to spread that message. The Republicans do and obviously the people of South Dakota fell for the lies-especially from Rounds.
    The financial hurdle is going to be a large one-until they take money out of politics which might be wishful thinking.
    As far as religion goes there are plenty of jerks who throw their religion in peoples faces and not give a damn about helping faces. And there are religious people who are very good people.
    Conversely there are atheists who are good people and ones who are jerks.

  74. Bill Fleming 2014.11.17

    Mike from Iowa, here's the best answer to your question I have read:

    "The more of one’s life is wrapped up with one’s group, the more crucial it is to be able to identify group members correctly and not to be deceived by someone who seeks temporary advantage by claiming to share your ideals but who really doesn’t. If that man carrying a Boston Red Sox banner, whom you had accepted as a fellow Red Sox fan, suddenly cheers when the New York Yankees hit a home run, you’ll find it humiliating but not life-threatening. But if he’s a soldier next to you in the front line and he drops his gun (or turns it on you) when the enemy attacks, your misreading of him may cost you your life.

    That’s why religious affiliation involves so many overt displays to demonstrate the sincerity of your commitment: sacrifices of time and resources, enduring of hardships, and other costly displays that I’ll discuss later. One such display might be to espouse some irrational belief that contradicts the evidence of our senses, and that people outside our religion would never believe. If you claim that the founder of your church had been conceived by normal sexual intercourse between his mother and father, anyone else would believe that too, and you’ve done nothing to demonstrate your commitment to your church. But if you insist, despite all evidence to the contrary, that he was born of a virgin birth, and nobody has been able to shake you of that irrational belief after many decades of your life, then your fellow believers will feel much more confident that you’ll persist in your belief and can be trusted not to abandon your group."

  75. bearcreekbat 2014.11.17

    Rep. Hickey sez: "Reza Aslan has no credibility among scholars of the Bible. He's a fraud, a Muslim and his degrees [are not] in Biblical studies. Fools take him seriously and those who are predisposed to hear anything that agrees with what thy already believe."

    Bill's link sez: "Aslan's degrees include a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from Santa Clara University (Major focus: New Testament; Minor: Greek), a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard University (Major focus: History of Religions), a PhD in the Sociology of Religions from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a Master of Fine Arts from the University of Iowa, where he was named the Truman Capote Fellow in Fiction."

    Rep. Hickey's personal attack and criticism of Dr. Aslan seems off the mark a bit, and perhaps a bit childish, and grossly misleading.

  76. SDBlue 2014.11.17

    Agreed, bcb.

    Off the mark.
    Grossly misleading.

    The holy trinity of the GOP.

  77. Roger Cornelius 2014.11.17

    Can Sibson claim similar educational qualifications as Reza Aslan? Sounds as though he is more qualified to speak on biblical history than Sibson, that is no big deal, anybody can claim to be a biblical scholar.

  78. Douglas Wiken 2014.11.17

    Joe Lowe is in the neighborhood. Democrats need to do a better job of framing the issues. If they don't do it, the GOP will frame the issues like a funhouse mirror.

  79. mike from iowa 2014.11.17

    Is dogma what makes a dog raise its leg and pee on a fence where the sign says wet paint?

    Bill,thanks for the help. Religion is like liver. It is to be avoided at all costs and dressing liver up with onions is a pure waste of good onions.

  80. Deb Geelsdottir 2014.11.17

    This is a good example of Christianity which comes from the Lemmon area. It's also a good example of what Republican/conservative economic policies are doing to the rural areas of the Dakotas. (Personally, I find this video very moving. The people remind me very much of my congregations north and east of the Hills, Newell-Vale-Zeona.)

  81. JeniW 2014.11.17

    I wonder if Jesus Christ has episodes of laughter about how humans use his teachings as weapons against people, and messing up what he tried to teach?

  82. Les 2014.11.17

    I doubt it's laughter, jw. Those are good people putting differences aside to worship their individual beliefs together, Deb. These folks have survived on faith for over a hundred years in our desert prairies and it shows. Stop and see Stuart, Phyllis and Ed at the Grand River Museum on Highway 12 in Lemmon. Built on faith, this museum is a testament to our native brothers and sisters and the prairie settlers who knew and loved them along with them dinosaur bones from Stuart's ranch.

  83. Deb Geelsdottir 2014.11.17

    Les, I KNOW. I know exactly what they are doing and I know exactly why they are doing it. That is exactly what I am saying.

    I spent 6 years with folks just like them. Do you know where Zeona is? Immanuel Lutheran Church? I spent Sundays, Xmases, Easters, buried their dead, baptized their babies, shared meals, heartbreak, fears, celebrations and everything else. I didn't care who was Lutheran, RCC, Baptist or nonbeliever. No one did.

    Jeez, I feel like you are deliberately misconstruing every word I write.

  84. Deb Geelsdottir 2014.11.17

    BTW Les, I love those folks now as much as I did then.

  85. Les 2014.11.18

    I had no intent but to deliver an extra to your video on the good folks and their creation of the Grand River Museum. It would be hard not to love these folks, but many here despise them because they do have some rigid beliefs.

  86. leslie 2014.11.18

    this is not my area of expertise but les' and debs' exchange and video lead me to comment that the irony of love, belief and community is placed on top of the native americans the land was taken by force from. there is nary a native person shown in the video, and the profession of a "hundred years of building community" seems in some ways shallow given the sacrifices the native people made and are still making.

  87. leslie 2014.11.18

    larry, the brave heart PTSD historical trauma syndrome is likely right on. right on brother!

  88. Deb Geelsdottir 2014.11.18

    Larry, I think the phrase "Historical Trauma" has validity for several groups, women among them. I am glad to hear a way to name that experience that is accurate and brief. I'm going to remember it and use it when appropriate.

  89. Les 2014.11.18

    Not all Indians wear feathers, leslie. I believe I saw a Strongheart descendant.

  90. leslie 2014.11.18

    generational trauma is also used, deb

  91. Roger Cornelius 2014.11.18

    Historical trauma was followed by generational trauma and now the current usage is intergenerational trauma which encompasses both historical and generational.
    That is to say young people feel the devastation of their culture and ancestors, they also become a part of their parents and elders stories of growing up Indian on the reservation and Indian boarding schools.
    Young Natives that encounter racism and discrimination off the reservation can easily associate that with the stories told them in their youth about Jim Crow laws, etc.
    Today's Native youth often glory in the romanticism of the 1973 Wounded Knee take over.

  92. leslie 2014.11.22

    than you, roger, as always. talented comedic troupe 1491s revel in some of this on youtube. they performed before a packed house before the election at UTTC in rc, following weiland, wismer, blake, robinson and page and nordstrom.

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