Gary Jerke submits to Gordon Howie's blog a vague homily to putting Bibles in public schools. The former Yankton-area legislator opens by saying "Last evening a group from our church appeared before our local school board concerned about their policy toward distribution of Bibles to the children...." Jerke does not directly tell us what the school board's policy is or what his group's concerns are. He also doesn't tell us what school board in South Dakota meets on Saturday night. (The post is dated January 25; "last evening" was January 24.)
But details and explanation be darned, we're off and running into the fundie shower-singing meant to get its practitioners into heaven faster:
Schools are to be a place of preparation and yet the most important aspect of preparation (meaning to make ready) we overlook. That is the preparation of spiritual things which the Bible first addresses in Joshua 22:26 in the building of an alter as a place to show witness to God. For me that underscores a part of my cultural history where in communities churches were built in the heart of our towns and pastors were regarded as the highest authority or often final word on many if not most matters [Gary Jerke, "Be Prepared," The Right Side, 2015.01.25].
Pastors as the highest authority in the community, giving the final word on most matters—translate that as theocracy.
But wait! What's this introduction of spiritual things into the public school curriculum? What does that "preparation" have to do with getting students ready to become welders? "Spiritual things" sounds an awful lot like "philosophy," and we all know philosophy won't help our students get good jobs! How dare Gary Jerke threaten to distract our schools from their primary mission of solving South Dakota's workforce shortage?
I am sure the Governor will join me in standing against this intrusion of impractical theology into our K-12 workforce preparation system.
"I am sure the Governor will join me in standing against this intrusion of impractical theology into our K-12 workforce preparation system."
Since you are fellow liberals.
If the study of the bible is that important to a parent then I would suggest that they send their children to a parochial school.
And I dreamed I saw the bombers jet planes riding shotgun in the sky,
Turning into butterflies above our nation.
Public education isn't a mission trip opportunity. We have plenty of churches in our communities. Teach your religion at home and double-time on your designated religion day(s) of the week. If someone wants to join your church because of your wonderful message and outreach, they will. Don't look to indoctrinate children that aren't yours... we're busy creating workforce laborers out of them. ;)
I was 16 that summer. A sophomore in HS and we didn't need no stinkin' bibles then or ever. We wuz invincible. Woodstock was a religious event for the masses.
"Woodstock was a religious event for the masses."
Thanks for providing another argument that the government schools are establishing a New Age Theocracy.
mike, way back in '63 at St. Mary's in Elkton the nuns and Miss Ann taught us Puff, the Magic Dragon, some Pete Seeger, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan at a time when Vietnam wasn't even being mentioned by Walter Cronkite. We prayed but Sister Crescentia was far more focused on our math and science than on religious texts.
the ruling class wants the churches to take over the education of our youth. that way they can close public schools, and we can pay teachers even less. Quite simple, Gary is just spreading the good word. Get on the bus Gus...you do not need to discuss much, just drop off the key Lee, and set yourself free.
Larry...1963...Elkton...Erv Kurtz...SDSU Dairy Science...any connection?
Uncle Erv: my aunt Grace just passed.
http://www.brookingsregister.com/V2_news_articles.php/feed/v2_news_articles.php?heading=0&story_id=23185&page=80
thank you Larry. I will always recall the hats that Erv wore. he would judge dairy shows where my sisters and I showed cattle. Innocent times...nearly 50 years ago.
" that way they can close public schools, and we can pay teachers even less."
costs down
morality up
education up
win win win
I am being sarcastic Sibby, you are too, right? because you cannot believe what you wrote.
Sadly,Wayne, sib actually believes his own nonsense. No one has to feed him Kool-aid. He's making his own. I blow past most of his comments anymore. I like to hear all sides but some are just not worth my time.
Go ahead and don't believe me. You two can continue to be mislead by the crony capitalists.
misled
Miss Sled
missiles in lead.
I remember '63' like it was 52 years ago. Kennedy had just been murdered and my 10 year old world was about to end in nukular war because my gubmint made a habit of scaring school age kids with stories about nasty Soviets. We didn't need bibles. Some of us needed Depends thanks to scare tactics.
Don't Jerke and drive.
Mike, did you have the drills where you crawled underneath your desks? quite the time in our 1 room school house in the middle of a township. outhouses and a cistern.
Why is it that the Christian conservative movement, those dedicated to personal responsibility, want the government to pay for their child's religious indoctrination?
Parents have an obligation to pay for religious education themselves
If you want a bible in school send your kids to a Christian school.
Bible don't belong in a public schools. Churches are meant for that.
And you are absolutely right Roger.
Isnt there anybody that knows how to read anymore? Mathew 6 says, "keep your religion to yourself." Get it? Not in school, and not on the street, but in your home or church.
It looks to me like those that dont follow wont get to shake hands with the big lady in charge. God has to be a woman to play this many tricks on the religious right.
Our legislators who are in Pieere
Hallowed be thy name
Your kingdoms come
Your bills are dumb
In Pierre just like they are in Norris
Give us this day our dayly propaganda
And forgive our blogpost
As we forgive those that post against us
And lead us not into Walmart but deliver us to Hyvees
For that is the kingdom and the power of the GOP forever and ever.
The gospel according to Bill
The Blindman
I sure am glad my kids are out of school, glad they got an education while there still was one to be had here. I feel sorry for the kids going now and the ones still to go, the garbage they get will be much different. I have news for Mr Jerke, if he even stepped on the school property that my kids were attending with a box of religious propaganda (the bible) I would have his ass and the school district in court so fast it would make their collective heads spin. If somebody wants to brainwash their kids with that shit, do it at home where other peoples kids can't be damaged.
Yes we did,Wayne P. We also had civil defense shelters in some schools and had drills were marched in an orderly fashion to our tombs.
Sibby,while I was growing up Richie Blackmore was god. Then Jeff Beck,Duane Allman,Jimi Paige,Eric Clapton and countless others had their turns to be god.I don't listen to much music anymore so I can't tell you if god still exists at present. All who came before are still gods of a slightly lower magnitude. Rock and Roll is here to stay.
Bill, that's the funniest thing I've read in a while, very nice.
Yikes! The more I read about the 2015 SD legislative session the more it's like flipping thru tv channels and accidently landing on Fox News except there are no apologies. Fabricated fear, religion and everything else.
Mike, rock and roll is dead, the only thing worth listening to is the classic stuff we listened to, although I will say the recent Seegar and new AC/DC albums are pretty good.
Lynn, whats happening in Pierre makes about as much sense as hanging someone with an orthopedic rope.
The Blindman
Maybe the schools should play the song "The Universal Soldier" everyday right after citing the flag pledge, it is a war protest song, but it pretty much sums up the way things are now in SD. (BTW I copied pasted this version, but I think the correct spelling of "Jane" is "Jain."
"He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of thirty-one and he's only seventeen
He's been a soldier for a thousand years
He's a catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jane
A Buddhist and a Baptist and Jew
And he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will
You'll for me my friend and me for you
And he's fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France
He's fighting for the usa
And he's fighting for the Russians and he's fighting for Japan
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
And he's fighting for democracy he's fighting for the reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall
But without him how would Hitler have condemned him at Le Val
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as the weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on
He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame
But his orders come from far away no more
They come from him and you and me and brothers can't you see
This is not the way we put an end to war?"
I'm old enough that the only good rock and roll was from the 50s, you know the King, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc. The only real country music was hank Sr., Patsy Cline, Hank Snow, Kitty Wells, etc.
Since you admit you don't know what the policy regarding distribution of Bibles is, or even if they have one, or what this is about, the story comes down to:
A church group went to talk to the school board .
For all we know, one (1) student brought a Bible to school and lent it to a (1) friend and all hell broke loose: hysterical parents, the kid got suspended for bringing it on school grounds like a loaded gun or drugs or something, resulting in some insane over-reaction. We have no idea what this is about. But given that some kids have been kicked out of school for making toy guns out of pop tarts anything is possible
Why a school library would ban any work of literature remains a mystery.
I'm guessing Anne if that if that would have been the case Jerke would have said so. Yes I'm only guessing.
There is a better chance a bunch of bibles thumpers wanted to distribute bibles and save all the kids from all those liberals.
I agree with Lar. Even violent fiction books should be allowed.
There's the thing, Anne: Jerke gives us nothing to work with. He seems to just be looking for an excuse to trot out the tired formulas about God, school, country, yadda yadda, instead of writing a clear essay that puts principles into practical context and helps us learn something new.
But when he nods to some alleged good old days when the pastor was the leading authority around town, he's definitely hearkening to theocracy. I'm married to a soon-to-be pastor, and I don't want her to be put in charge of town just because she's a pastor. Neither should Jerke, and neither should you.
Jerke said, "For me that underscores a part of my cultural history where in communities churches were built in the heart of our towns . . ."
Even Jerke knows it's all about the Churches. The Churches. Taking care of the people's religious needs is entirely what churches are for. That's why churches were created from the very first.
The instigator of the Protestant Reformation in the 14th century, Martin Luther, wrote a fairly short book he named "The Catechism." Luther was crystal clear about the book's purpose. It was for the parents so they could use it to teach their children about Lutheranism At Home. He never wrote a book for non-Christian schools.
Every Lutheran congregation in every Lutheran denomination, and there are 30+ denominations, promises to provide Christian education when an individual is baptized. They do not promise to make the schools do the church's job.
If a church or denomination wants the local public school to do Christian education, then that church or denomination is clearly a failure.
Jerke" "For me that underscores a part of my cultural history where in communities churches were built in the heart of our towns and pastors were regarded as the highest authority or often final word on many if not most matters."
This is not Biblical. It is pretty close to idolatry. Altars in Joshua were built as a way to witness, but those associated with the altars were not assumed to have authority.
Pragmatically, handing out Bibles is entirely benign. If someone is ignorant about Christianity, giving them a Bible (a real Bible) won't help them much. The book is simply not good propaganda material, which is why all Children's Bibles (like the one my 4-year-old has) trip over themselves to insert Jesus and his purpose into every single story. I mean really? Jesus was a part of Cain and Abel?
Relevant anecdote: I received my first Bible in the third grade along with my classmates. The pastor called our class down during the service and handed each of us a free new hardcover Living Bible. And by the time we got to Sunday School less than 30 minutes later, my friend, Chris L. showed us this nugget:
"If a man’s testicles are crushed or his penis cut off, he shall not enter the sanctuary. A bastard may not enter the sanctuary, nor any of his descendants for ten generations."
First... you have to appreciate the honesty of the translator here. Every other English translation I've checked bowdlerizes it to something like "emasculated by crushing or cutting" (NIV) or "wounded in the stones" (KJV). Say what you will about mainstream Methodists, but they did not water down their 3rd graders' Bibles.
Second... for years, I wondered when was going to be the Sunday when they actually checked for crushed testicles and bastards. We had 200-some men in the sanctuary every week, how did the pastor know they all had passable genitalia?
Third... ten generations? How is that one bit fair? I get punished because one of my great-great grandfathers was born out of wedlock?
In third grade, I definitely read and respected the Bible more than all my classmates (ask any of them... I was quite churchy), and yet the book itself seemed actually allied against my understanding of my religion.
Back to the point. I think this Bible stuff is merely symbolic, not a pragmatic threat to anything. It's not written as ideological propaganda like The Communist Manifesto or even Mere Christianity. It can inspire good things if it was opened to, say, the Good Samaritan parable. But to get modern Christianity from the Bible, requires teaching which parts of the Bible to ignore (the aforementioned verse), which parts to read literally (Jesus' resurrection), which parts to take as metaphor (Jesus' words on communion in John 6), and which parts must be accepted but are too mysterious for anyone to understand (the Trinity; why Jesus must die so that God my Father can forgive my sins).
Why do we care if Jerke gets a symbolic victory? Kids aren't any worse off for having a Bible or the Illiad, or the Analects or the Book of Mormon. I personally think it's fine to teach creationism in school, too, because it presents such a great opportunity explain the evidence for evolution and the process of science.
Interesting that those who claim to be so open minded are the first to ban a book that for many years, was instrumental in the educational process of many.
The bible was so intricate to our society, it has historically been used to swear in public officials for several centuries. For those who claim Christianity was not a cornerstone in the founding of this country, such respect is hard to explain away. Now Christianity is so dangerous to the Left, that it should be banned from our schools?!?!
Hold on, DD: I'm not banning a book or a religion. I do oppose proselytizers' taking advantage of my tax dollars to sell their religion or any other product to my child and other members of a captive audience.
I would be uneasy with Robin Thicke handing out his CDs in the school lunchroom, too. Not that the kids would know what to do with CDs anymore....
DD's response is standard fall back for the religiously brainwashed. That book isn't even good fiction, yet they treat it as fact, base their entire lives on it, and some even start wars and kill millions over it. I elected to not expose my kids to that stuff and guess what, they turned out just fine. It doesn't belong in public schools.
Here is what would most likely to happen to the Bibles that are handed out to students:
1. They would be put someplace to collect dust, and never opened.
2. Are put into the garbage to be taken to the landfill.
3. A few might start to read it but give up because it is too complex. Even some adults start to read it and give up because it is too violent, or too complex.
Is that what the people who want to hand out Bibles to happen to the Bibles? Would it not be more useful to donate Bibles to Christian based organizations, or use the money to support organizations that are Christian based or for charitable causes?
That's what Sunday school or private religious schools are for as an option for the parents to have their children be more educated about their faith besides any teaching they do at home. A Bible in a public school library is a good idea along with literature of other faiths if desired that not only may represent the local community but also from a historical perspective.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b-GIS4QXBJ0
I noticed in the movie Blazing Saddles that the pastor was the final authority until things got tough,then the townies were on their own.
A friend of mine noted in a group conversation a few weeks ago that in the time of Abraham Lincoln there were a great many homes that only had one book. And to the degree that anyone had ever read any books at all The Bible was the one. In other words, literacy and Bible reading were one and the same for the majority of the literate population.
These days, as Mr. Bergan notes, the question is not so much whether or not to read it, but rather, which one to read. :-)
Contrary to popular beliefDD, most of the founding Fathers were not Christian and fought for a "wall of separation" between Church and State. Thomas Jefferson was a Deist and fought agressively for this, and I'm suprised my fellow Madvillias haven't stressed this on here.
Christian Republicans are very good people that sometimes vote their emotions instead of their mind.......Don't be deceived with some of these buzz words........Conservative, family values, less government, pro-life, gays, guns. That's how the tax, fee, and spend crony establishment Republicans raise money, and get elected. It's about money, power and control.
DD: "Now Christianity is so dangerous to the Left, that [the Bible] should be banned from our schools?!?!"
Who suggested banning the Bible? It has a place in schools alongside the Koran, the Torah, and other religious texts as they are discussed in a philosophy or "World Religions" course. It is (and always has been) also acceptable for a student to have his or her own copy of the Bible in their backpack or locker, and it isn't against any school policy to read a personal religious text on the student's own (free) time even if located on school grounds.
What people object to isn't the book itself, it is the intent to use our schools as a way to distribute religious material to students who are essentially in a captive environment.
If this is acceptable, then it would need to be acceptable for Scientologists to start handing out copies of Dianetics, Satanists to hand out copies of the Satanic Bible, or Muslims to hand out copies of the Koran. I wonder how many Christians would be ok with that idea if the playing field was level?
Taken to the extreme we could have a book distribution even held weekly because we would need to give equal opportunity to any group which wishes to use our schools as distribution hubs for their propaganda. Is this really the best use of our school systems? I think not.
By the way - Jenny is right. Most of our founding fathers were not Christian (in fact only John Jay is recognized as being Christian), so the argument that our nation was founded based upon Christianity has no merit unless you are referring to the desire to ensure it (Christianity) was not considered a national religion as was the case in England... one of the reasons our forefathers fought for independence. There is no mention of Christianity in our Declaration of Independence nor is there within our Constitution. Period.
Truth is, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and James Madison (among others) were all documented Deists. Thus if we need to get back to the "cornerstone" which our nation is founded upon, that belief system would be more in line with Deism than it ever would with Christianity. Granted any mixing of religion and government rarely works, and thus I'm quite comfortable with our current separation of church and state. Thank God (pun intended) Jefferson was a visionary.
Jenny, your statement is less than accurate. One of the better articles that explore the wider nuances of the Founding Father's varied beliefs: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1272214/The-Founding-Fathers-Deism-and-Christianity
I've yet to see any who oppose the Bible, explain how it is installed as a key element in oaths in our country.. and yet it is protested by so many on the left from being available in our public education system.
Ok, this is just my opinion, everyone has one.
The bible in and of itself is a great read. Its got a lot of good stories, and has the essentials. , sex, violence, and the moral judgement of immoral thoughts as seen through the eyes of? Would that be the person transcribing not what a scribe said, but what they thought the scribe meant at the time.
Its no longer about one book, one thought, but about many translations that have slightly different meanings. To some those differences mean very little but to others it is the difference between Satan, and God. Wrong book wont get you into heaven, and for some it wont even get brownie points.
Wouldnt library space be better suited to a book comparing the different versions of the bible? No that wouldnt work either because these people dont want "A" bible, but rather "their" bible front and center on the book shelf. It becomes a book not about the literature, but about their own brand of Christianity.
With families leaving churches by the thousands, the fundamentalist movement needs all the coverts it can find. Like all religions, its just the nature of the beast.
All religions are essentially alike in that they loosely follow the "Golden Rule." Now dont be saying tha Christianity is different because it preaches nonviolence. I know better, because the bible told me so.
"God is love, God is good." All the major religions have something like that in their "book."
"Bless us oh Lord for these our gifts which we are about to recieve." Same thing.
While the public is expected to respect religious separation, and the differences, those same religions find it impossible to respect any religion other then their own. This even extends to different branches of the same religious bodies. The Lutheran separatist movement is but one example.
This discussion would be better suited to thyology students setting around a table passing the bong, rather then our public schools libraries.
The question that comes to my mind is. If they want the bible in the schools library, whos book would that book be anyway?
When my mom was growing up, Norris South Dakota was a thriving town. At the south end of mainstreet there were two churches across the street from one another. Those churches are still there, one is no longer preaching, but through many reincarnations the other one is still up and running.
During the summer both churches had bible school at the same time. When the kids would come outside to play at the same time they would yell back and forth across the street at each other. From the Catholic church they would yell puplicker puplicker. From thr Protestants side of the street they would yell catlicker catlicker. It was all in good fun until the first rock was thrown. The next year the bible schools were staggered so there wouldnt be a repeat. Nuff Said.
The Blindman
DD, you can keep to your beliefs, but my statement is pretty sincere. A lot of our founding fathers were indifferent to religion and fought for that "wall of separation between church and state". Jefferson may have been born Christian, but clearly struggled with his beliefs his whole life, as you can tell by his writings.
" I've yet to see any who oppose the Bible, explain how it is installed as a key element in oaths in our country.. and yet it is protested by so many on the left from being available in our public education system."
DD, dont throw nerf balls at us. First, the sanctity of the bible for oaths has been replaced by the immoral activities of those that have put their hand on the book. That book didnt guarantee a damn thing other then something to lean on while being sworn in. It never stopped curruption in office. And it sure as hell didnt stop the immoral thoughts or actions of those people taking the oath.
Are you suggesting that each student put their hand on the bible and sware to study?
You tell us why we should have to take a, now, meaningless oath while placing our hands on a religious document, if that book is somthing we dont nessasarilly believe in? Wouldnt that be forced indoctrination? Or might that be your purpose in the first place?
The Blindman
Bill D.
This Peter Popoff fella seems to have a pretty good gig going with his miracle water. Maybe instead we can just put some of these water packets in libraries. Hey money suddenly appears in these peoples checking accounts just think how it would solve this state's problems! Ironically his show is only on at about 2:00am. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaFCGx3SIFs
Thomas Jefferson vehemently denied the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Just now listening to Diane Rehm and Sarah Chayes talking about the violence that followed the Protestant Reformation. The Troubles still resonate today because christians are assholes.
I miss Jim and Tammy Fae
The Blindman
Good news,Bill D. Jim Bakker is on Angel 2 channel-ch 266 on Dish network from 1-2 PM today. Right before Sgt Preston of the Yukon and one and a half hours ahead of the Lone Ranger. He's rather bald now but still spouts BS as well as ever.
Peter Popoff sounds like a porn star name or should be. He has a show on Canadian tv if anyone moves up there.
Perhaps Thomas Jefferson and the others that were Deist rejected Christianity because they were slave masters. Surely the Bible has something to say about owning slaves.
Also, the Rapid City Journal's Sunday and Monday editions did a two part story on FLDS compound near Pringle, a good informative read. In the article it reported that Mormonism is one of the fastest growing religions (cults) in the country.
Be sure to add the Book of Mormon to the list of religious propaganda to be handed out in public schools at tax payer expense.
Chris Hedges: Killing Ragheads for Jesus
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/killing_ragheads_for_jesus_20150125
It seems those without faith often act like those smokers (cig & MJ) in school. Desperately seeking those like them to convince themselves they are right in their wrong.
Thomas Jefferson was devout in his beliefs. He was NOT a traditional Christian in those beliefs but what he called a sect by himself: http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs
To this end, many appear to also be ignorant as to what deism is as they make sweeping claims that such and such was a documented one. Claiming someone was a deist does not put them on the atheist team. Exactly the opposite. Additionally, there were Christian deists.
As with the shallow comments about political affiliations on here by many (calling opportunistic "Republicans" liberals/conservatives), such sweeping comments claiming the Founding Father's were NOT men of faith is ignorant as Jefferson's own legacy points out.
Could you be upset b/c the Founding Fathers are not as Christian as you have been led to believe, DD? You seem rather perturbed. Don't make assumptions that all Madvillians here are without faith, quite the opposite actually. Nobody here has said that Deism is atheism, either, so get your accusations straight.
Really, believe what you want, DD, I don't care. After all, that is your right. There are plenty of historian scholars that would disagree with you and call you out on your sweeping statement of our Founding Fathers being of Devout Faith as you are saying. Of course America has been led to believe that since it makes them feel better, or something. Thomas Jefferson wrote many, many letters doubting and disagreeing with organized religion, it's actually quite startling for the time. Thank goodness that brashness of his fought for that "Wall Of Separation Between Church And State".
I'm done here/
" The lady doth protest too much, methinks "
The issue of trying to apply what the Founding Fathers said/wrote to today is that they are all long dead, and people are guessing based on how they interpret the meaning (sort of how people interpret the Bible.) They wrote what they wrote for what was happening in their time.
Some of what they wrote could be applicable now, but if they were alive today and know how our country and the world has changed over the past 200+ years, would their opinion and beliefs be the same, or would it be different? We will never know.
wait a minute! you mean our country was founded by people who ended up going to hell?
http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs
By his own words-Jefferson was a sect unto himself.
A very interesting fellow, that Jefferson. It's not a guess that he did indeed vigorously demand "a wall of separation between church and state". (I just love rubbing that one into the 'Pubs).
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
Can you imagine the outcry if Obama said this today? (Jefferson's opponents at the time did attack him for his Deist beliefs.)
JeniW.
Jefferson would probably pass a kidney stone if he knew what became of his vision of America:
Women can now vote.
Slavery is now illegal
Jim Crow laws came and went
Blacks and other minorities can vote
Same-sex marriage is on the verge of becoming the law of the land.
Abortion is legal for women.
Since the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were penned and that phrase "All Men Are Created Equal" is so often repeated, women and minorities are still for fighting for equal rights.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm glad Jefferson's America is a thing of the past and hopefully stays that way.
DD: "To this end, many appear to also be ignorant as to what deism is as they make sweeping claims that such and such was a documented one. Claiming someone was a deist does not put them on the atheist team."
Can you cite a single post here which makes such a claim? Because I must have missed it.
The point is, many of our founding fathers did believe in a higher power, but they were not considered Christian (i.e. they did not profess a belief in nor did they worship Jesus Christ).
I sometimes forget that Christians don't understand the term God doesn't necessarily refer to the Christian God, Jesus, or Jesus's father and/or all of the above depending upon your particular flavor of Christianity.
I don't recall anyone suggesting the founding fathers were atheist either... although if they were alive today I'm sure they would be accused of it from those on the far right.
If the FF were alive today,they'd be accused of being neo-commie, liberal socialists and be accused of hating America.
Maybe it was the Blindman who mentioned Lutherans breaking into a variety of separate sect's due to doctrinal differences. They are not the only ones.
There are dozens of different denominations of Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics, Churches of Christ, Churches of God, and more. Probably the winner of the Split Up Derby is the Baptists. I couldn't even begin to count how many.
Churches split over doctrine, money, rules, property, biblical interpretation, music, the most minute differences in theology, personal grudges . . . Really just about anything you can think of.
There are plenty of truly wonderful people participating in the life in their church. There are also people who use the church to play out every single one of their own personal issues. Because churches are made up of, and governed by, ordinary human beings, you see all of the same things apparent in any other segment of society.
There is a deeply mistaken assumption that people who are involved in churches should be better than the rest of the population. Unfortunately, some church members buy into that and behave as if they are superior. Somewhere I read this satirical question: "If going to church makes you better, does going to the garage make you a car?"
The fact is, they are no better or worse than anyone else. They screw up, lie, steal, cheat. They also dedicate a massive amount of time, energy and money to helping others. They make beautiful music and memorable visual art.
Just like the rest of us.
I don't have anything against religion except that it poisons everything.
I take comfort knowing that such an idea won't succeed.
Actually, Bob, it isn't religion that poisons everything. It's what people do with it that "poisons the well".
CLCJM said, "Actually, Bob, it isn't religion that poisons everything. It's what people do with it that "poisons the well"."
Perfect.
CLC and Deb, you're making a fine, and in the end irrelevant distinction. The religions with which I am familiar to any extent all promote irrational beliefs, which then trigger irrational acts.
Bob, churches may have beliefs which seem irrational to others, but eminently sane to them. Those beliefs motivate many of them to care for humanity in tangible ways.
In MN, the vulture payday lenders are no less onerous than anywhere else. Churches are working together to mitigate the harm those lenders do. The name of the organization is Exodus Lending. It will make loans to people in need who can't get a bank loan. The interest rate tops at 36%. While that is high compared to a bank, it's reasonable for a risky loan.
You can learn more about Exodus Lending here:
http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2013/11/20/churches-target-abusive-payday-loans-plan-offer-alternative