Tony Martinet teaches and coaches debate at Sioux Falls Lincoln High School. Three years ago, at students' request, he took on the challenge of advising the LHS Gay Straight Alliance. Sticking up for gay kids is a risk in South Dakota. The promise of continuing contract and due process for "tenured" teachers helps Martinet feel a little more secure in taking that risk and standing up for those kids. He knows that the school district can't end his employment just because he takes the strangely controversial position of sticking up for kids who get bullied.
That's why Tony Martinet went to Pierre Wednesday to testify against HB 1234, which now in its amended form would do away with that due process protection for every teacher in South Dakota:
Tony's protecting your kids from bullies. How about you protect him? Call your legislators, tell them to kill HB 1234 and keep continuing contract protections for our experienced teachers.
If administrators do not have the capacity to measure his performance as a teacher and would impose non-teaching activities that don't affect his classroom standing (would advising a skin-head group affect standing? maybe), we need new administrators.
Troy, administrators have all the tools they need right now to remove truly ineffective, under-performing teachers. Tony and the rest of us teachers deserve at least the existing due process to protect us from those who would try to take away our jobs for purely political reasons.
Surely the system can get rid of those who teach the Bible and protect those who advocate sin. Cory, now you should clearly see what I call the New Age Theocracy.
Steve, stop trying to establish religion in the schools. Tony is not peddling a religion. He is doing his job and protecting every citizen's right to an education in a safe environment. If you and I had gone to high school, I might have found your beliefs offensive, but I would have had no right to beat you up for them.
Troy,
I am confused about where you get the idea that administrators have a tough time getting rid of teachers now. I really want to see the South Dakota policy in place that protects those with continuing contract fromdismissal for bad performance.
Point me to a school that can't do it. The guys at Harding County are incompetent. If the teacher truly bullied a kid, he's gone and he has no leg to stand on.
The idea that teachers should know by a certain date whether they have a job is an onerous burden.
On another thread, someone asked what the evaluation form looked like. I can't speak for everyone, but it strikes me that nearly every South Dakota teacher will tell you that the evaluations are based on whatever the administrator is looking for that day.
Quite frankly, I see this as step one to getting rid of experienced teachers and then bringing in Teach For America or some other alternative certification to keep costs down.
It's a political power play
Should be question mark after "onerous burden? I need coffee.
"poor punctuation... dependent on coffee... comments on liberal blogs..." hmmm... clearly grounds for dismissal... ;-)
Cory, I am not advocating beating anybody up. I am saying the sex education programs promote sin and those who read the Bible cannot bring it up without being branded a bully.
What would happen to a tenured teacher who quotes from Romans Chapter 1:
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Steve, we're not talking about sex education. We're talking about protecting students from bullies. As for quoting Romans, that depends: if you're conducting the kind of purely secular Christianity studies class that Rev. Hickey says he wants, then you're as safe under the First Amendment as if you quote Mein Kampf in history class. But if you bracket that quote by saying, "And that's what you kids ought to believe; now go harass those sinners Mr. Martinet is shielding," you're in trouble, because you're using state resources to establish religion and to be a jerk.
Quoting gibberish from CPAC is offensive, Steve.
Sounds like a good new testiment bible lesson, Sibby. A great way to contrast the teachings of Jesus with those of Saint Paul, and to point up just one of the many, many ways Paul was morally wrong about so many many things.
Here's another nice little Pauline proclamation:
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." —1 Timothy 2:11-14, KJV
As far as sex education goes, St. Paul's position was basically that you shouldn't ever have any. If you did, you were weak in your faith. That, combined with a prohibition on contraception, is a sure fire formula for failure in terms of increased unwanted teen pregnancy and ultimately increased abortion rates as well. Fortunately, society has advanced beyone such numbskullery and the rate of teen pregnancy is the lowest it's been in decades, as are abortion rates.
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/09/fewer-teens-getting-pregnant-having-abortions-study-shows/
"now go harass those sinners Mr. Martinet is shielding"
No Cory, that is not hwo Christians treat sinners because we humbly understand taht we all are sinners. It is the New Agers that harass, just look to Fleming for an example.
Fine, Steve. Then you should have no problem affording Mr. Martinet and the rest of us the protection of continuing contract. He is doing justice. He deserves to be protected against political agitation against his employment.
@TrahantReports Mark Trahant:
"Twist on Catholics & contraception: Power of state over religion was already decided against Native Am Church in Smith case. Revisit that?"
Yes, I will ridicule irrational religious zealotry at every opportunity, especially as it seeks to pollute and traumatize the minds of innocent children.
There is so many questions here and we seem to be distracted.
1) Should administrators be able to dismiss a teacher for non-classroom conduct that affects their standing in the classroom? I think so. Is it subjective, yes? Is it conducive to the current process for dismissal? I don't know but on the surface, I think "process" is always hard for subjective applications.
I asked the question: Should/could a teacher be fired by advising a "skin-head" group after hours? If the answer is no, then we need to keep the current system. If the answer is yes, we need to admit hiring, firing, giving raises is subjective and appropriate. Let the administrators manage and then make them accountable. This is the real world.
2) I personally have visceral reactions to anybody who uses a "cause" to justify a policy based on an exception. I don't care if is anti-bullying, a pro-Christian message, etc. The primary goal of teachers should be to give students a command of the teaching subject. EVERYTHING else is secondary and if it is a distraction to the primary goal, it can be stopped by the school. If the teacher won't stop, they can be fired. No hearing. Just fired.
3) If the teacher thinks their activity might not be appreciated by their boss and affect how the boss deems they can do the job, they should discuss it with their boss beforehand. This is the real world.
There is two under-currents in this debate that is really grating on me:
1) Our administrators seem reluctant to manage. I guess maybe that is why they are the fastest growing expense in education. We need more to do less.
2) Some teachers seem to think their teaching license gives them carte blanche freedom to do anything they want in the name of "educational freedom" without regard to any accountability to students, parents, administrators, school boards, or taxpayers.
Sidenote: Seriously Cory, you think standing up against bullies is controversial? Secondly, this to me is a primary responsibility of administrators. A teacher sees this behaviour, they should just send them to the principals office. Their focus needs to be on the subject matter.
There was a teacher in Sioux Falls who got in trouble for her after-hours leadership in a Christian group of students. I think it is a subjective matter for discernment by the administration. Same with this deal. If you want to teach Science (or French) to my kids, I want the teacher to focus on doing NOTHING which diminishes standing in the classroom. If you want to be involved in Christian ministry or gay rights, I think it appropriate to ask the question: Should you pursue it outside your students? And, if becuase you are a teacher, go recruit someone else if it is deemed it distracts from teaching. Do adult ministry. Or in the case of Tony, see if he can get Todd Epp to do these students and then pick up some of his LGBT workload.
In short, advising skin-heads, gay students, or Christian students MAY be a distraction from standing in the classroom and thus may be subjectively deemed not allowed. And, frankly, I want administrators who both have the inclination, demeanor and skills to make this subjective judgment. No hard and fast policies.
"He deserves to be protected against political agitation against his employment."
Cory, I don't. In the private sector employees have no freedom of speech. The real impact of tenure is to protect sluggards.
Has your school been targeted by religious anti-civil rights hate groups? Teach Tolerance: http://www.tolerance.org/blog/pfox-sheep-s-clothing
Troy, please explain how your position isn't in fact a vehicle for repression of dissent. In South Africa it would have been an assist to the perpetuation of structural racism, since the "administrators" were unlikely to have come from the ranks of the oppressed.
We already have repression in American public education. And its source is international...UNESCO, The New Age International Theocracy.
So rise up, Steve. Take it to the streets, comrade. You have nothing to lose but your chains, brother. Everyone here willing to hop on Sibby's bandwagon and march into battle, raise their hands. Anyone, anyone... Buehler?
For those in doubt as to what is going on in public education, take a look at this reserach that contains 179 footnotes:
http://www.utahsrepublic.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Common-Core-State-Standards-and-Race-to-the-Top-An-Introduction-to-Marxism-101.pdf
Sheesh Bill. Again, with a distraction (South Africa).
I had a high school teacher and coach who owned apartments and hired student athletes to paint and do some refurbishing work. The question was raised if the activity created "favorites" so the teacher decided after the issue was raised to only hire non-athletes and students who had already taken his classes.
My point is what "materially" distracts from the primary responsibility of what occurs in the classroom is open to subjective discernment of what is appropriate. And, this includes matters I agree with (Christian ministry, anti-bullying, etc.) or things I disagree with (skinheads). And, in all likelihood it will come down to complaints and the nature of the complaints. Yes, sometimes, administration should stand up for some matters and stand down for others. And, yes, some will knee-jerk complain it is repression. And, yes, it might in fact be in an isolated case of being a form of repression. This is what we have accountability for with School Boards and elections- to determine the relative value of the "cause" against classroom standing and performance.
But, I'm really getting tired of this "freedom" argument without accountability to how it affects the PRIMARY mission of teaching the subject matter of the class.
Personally, I think it ok in the case of both the teacher who led a Christian group after hours and what Cory describes Mr. Martinet is doing so long as all parties are monitoring if it leads to problems in the classroom. If it does, I think the burden shifts to the Christian teacher (forget her name) and Mr. Martinet. The "protection" is not carte blanche.
Vatican: Marxism is good. "Karl Marx, who coined the phrase “Religion is the opium of the peopleâ€, may well be spinning in his grave at Highgate cemetery, London, with the news today that the Vatican has endorsed his theories."
Troy, I bring up South Africa not to distract, but rather to point up that we have structural discrimination in our society as well. The issues of equal rights for all citizenry are far from being settled. There is still much work to do, not just among individuals, but in the fabric of our laws as well.
Larry, the could very well be the Harlot riding the Beast. Later the Beast will devour the Harlot. Check the Book of Revelation.
Larry this may help:
http://endtimepilgrim.org/harlot.htm
Troy, administrators have all the tools they need right now to remove truly ineffective, under-performing teachers
Then why don't they Corey? A few years ago Madison had an extremly ineffective teacher. I believe you know who. I along with several others parents complained and saw no results. This particular individual is no longer is Madison, but not because of anything the board did.
No need, Steve: this latest episode of red state collapse is destined for the courts.
Tim,
Was the pressure to keep or not keep the instructor in question based on a coaching need?
Schools are full of politics. Getting rid of due process for teachers qualified for continuing contracts will mean that every teacher must concentrate on conforming to the wishes of their supt. and principal or they will be gone.
I'll answer your question too, Charlie. Yes!!!
The pressure was acedemic not athletic. I asked this particular teacher questions about the subject matter that was suppose to be taught in the class room and this individual could not answer my questions.
Linda, yes may be your answer, but not mine.
Red states without sex ed tend toward more teenage pregnancies, less condom use: Reuters.
Red state versus blue state is irrelevant. Check out historical rates of children born out of wedlock and you will clearly see the impact since the New Age Movement began establishing its theocracy.
...in your opinion, Steve: the science is clear.
No Larry, check out these charts and you will see the 60's being a huge turning point:
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/09/marriage-america-s-greatest-weapon-against-child-poverty
Nothing wrong with being born out of wedlock. Better than having a roaring, drunken, abusive, selfish asshole for a father...or getting an abortion. Get of your high horse, Sibson.
50 years ago does not a future make, Sibby. Evolve or die. Conservatives are frightened that multiculturalism will outpace inadequately-breeding white people.
I'm in Santa Fe where the Navajo laborers with high school diplomas speak three languages fluently and ip struggles with English.
King Solomon and Leonardo DaVinci were both born out of wedlock as was William the Conqueror.
Nothing wrong with being born out of wedlock?:
63% of teen suicides come from fatherless homes. That’s 5 times the national average.
SOURCE: U.S. Dept of Health
90% of all runaways and homeless children are from fatherless homes. That’s 32 times the national average.
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes. 14 times the national average.
SOURCE: Justice and Behavior
85% of children with behavioral problems come from fatherless homes. 20 times the national average.
SOURCE: Center for Disease Control
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. 9 times the national average.
SOURCE: National Principals Association Report
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes. 10 times the national average.
SOURCE: Rainbow’s for all God’s Children
85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes. 20 times the national average.
SOURCE: U.S. Dept. of Justice
Daughters of single parents without a Father involved are 53% more likely to marry as teenagers, 711% more likely to have children as teenagers, 164% more likely to have a pre-marital birth and 92% more likely to get divorced themselves.
91% of 701 fathers surveyed by the University of Texas at Austin agreed that there is a “father-absence crisis in America.â€
Children with Fathers who are involved are 40% less likely to repeat a grade in school.
SOURCE: National Household Education Survey
Children with Fathers who are involved are 70% less likely to drop out of school.
Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to get A’s in school.
Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to enjoy school and engage in extracurricular activities.
Even in high crime neighborhoods, 90% of children from stable 2 parent homes where the Father is involved do not become delinquents.
SOURCE: Development and Psychopathology 1993
Adolescent girls raised in a 2 parent home with involved Fathers are significantly less likely to be sexually active than girls raised without involved Fathers.
SOURCE: Journal of Marriage and Family, 1994
Where you at on virgin birth, Steve?
What are the income levels of those fatherless families, Sibby? Any data on that? Any chance those stats have anything to do with poverty?
Yes Bill, fatherless families are the primary cause of poverty.
Family Values In Red States Vs. Blue States: NPR, 5-10-2010
Larry, if you want to eliminate divorce, then ban marriages. Your link is an example of using statistics to mislead. Again, go up to the heritage link and see the graphs that clearly show a huge increase in out of wedlock births since the on set of the 60s. What would cause a decrease in divorce and an increase in out of wedlock births...not getting married.
@@BBCLiveNews
Confirmed breaking news. North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un assassinated. Updates to follow.
Works for me, Steve; marriage is clearly obsolete.
First to all: My comments and questions obviously are seen as irrelevant. I wish I knew why.
Steve, while the statistics you reference show a problem from the result of a breakdown of the family and obvious lack of responsibility of a lot of men. But you are missing Bill's point: it isn't the fault of the child he was born into a broken family or a deadbeat dad. And, if it isn't the fault of hte child, he did nothing wrong. Period.
Troy, never said it was the fault of the child. The source of the problem is the adoption of New Age Theology by public schools. Sadly the solution is to turn the children over to those same schools in the name of "Early Learning". That way they can be introduced to masterbation by the time they reach 5.
Master Bates is the father of New Age Theology, Steve?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxQkZhnC0YQ
Troy, your comments are never irrelevant to me. Evewr.
...ever. Sorry. Typed that too fast.
Hey Troy, I do appreciate your comments, might not agree with them as I read them without further discussion, but I do appreciate your input on this and other topics as you take the time and effort to think your positions out and defend them in the face of disagreement.
My biggest concern is the loss of a continuing contract seems to mean that teachers lose their right to the due process that we erroneously call tenure.
Is it just me, or is there a climate in Pierre that holds very little respect for workers? It's almost like they are seen as the enemy in issues being considered this year.
"The Commissioner of Indian Affairs published a detailed set of rules for Indian schools which stipulated a uniform course of study and the textbooks which were to be used in the Indian schools. The Commissioner prescribed the celebration of United States national holidays as a way of replacing Indian heroes and assimilating Indians."
Jana,
Workers are not the enemy. The reality is alot of past justification for privileges in law, etc. are not as relevant in today's world. At least in my opinion (and I think alot of others). I'm a former state employee and know well how the vast majority work hard and deliver great service to the public. I see nothing going on it Pierre as anti-worker and think people need to approach the issues with an openness that asks the question is "what was needed in the past is it still needed?"
Isn't that the mantra of the progressives? :)
By the way, I usually like your comments except when you resort to ad hominem attacks by invoking "ALEC." LOL
Bill, if you think they are never irrelevant but you spend more time with Sibby? Hurts my feelings. :)
Troy, sorry about the Sibby thing. I just washed it and can't seem to do darn a thing with it. Just another bad Sib day, I guess. I should probably just stop fiddling with it.
Tim: if schools don't fire or non-renew bad teachers, I'll wager it's because of local politics, not because of state laws and bureaucracy.
Troy: teachers can't meet their primary obligation of teaching if any segment of students are coming to school afraid.
One of the easiest things in the world to do is firing a government employee. I fired dozens for cause. Follow the process. It only takes will and a few to several weeks. The salvageable ones get the message and immediately make substantial behavior changes for the betterment of the organization and themselves. This is the preferred outcome.
School boards and the state education department should consider the practice completed this week in a California school and in the military - if the school blatantly, systemically fails to meet standards then fire them all and begin anew. It's called accountability. It is not radical. Protect the individuals' rights; but the larger duty is to the collective individuals in the organization (school).
Troy,
I hope that none of what follows is a distraction.
Let's stipulate that no one wants bad teachers. I would guess that we differ on the number of bad teachers who are currently in the classroom. I probably believe the number is lower than you do.
Your comments leave me with a huge lingering question: when is the teacher or any public employee off the clock? Minor issues such as a teacher's coaching performance have certainly become classroom and community distractions, even if the teacher was doing a good job in the classroom. I am left to conclude that if people in Spearfish complain about the political content of Cory's blog, you would support an adminstrative decision to order him to quit blogging or face dismissal. If that's the case what's to prevent a school board from ordering people not to get involved in poltical campaigns?
You write that many including yourself believe that protections are no longer necessary. I wish I shared your belief that human nature had evolved to such a point. The same sort of people who made the laws necessary still exist in postions of power, and left to their own devices, will recreate the situations that made the laws necessary in the first place.
You seem to consider my point that highly paid teachers will be dismissed because others can be brought in for lower pay a distraction. I'm not sure why. I've sat in dozens of school board meetings over the past few years and employees are always being referred to as costs. In a world where there's no way for them to provide financial gain for their employers to balance out the costs, I see the dismissal of higher paid teachers a liklihood not a distraction.
I wish I shared your belief that elections change things for the better. I supported Obama because he said he'd end torture. That vote worked out well. To the matter at hand, I don't share MarK Twain's view that God made idiots first for practice; then He made school boards, but I do know that there will be no overwhelming referendum to bring back an effective teacher who was unjustly fired.
The vast majority of teachers I know just want to close the door and teach. They do the best the can to get every student to learn. As fallible human beings, they sometimes err. Jesus was an infallible being and one could argue that he lost at least one student; that Judas Iscariot guy didn't turn out so well.
I don't want teachers to have no accountability. I want them to have a seat at the table when accountability is defined and the guidlines are set. That's not happening now.
Typed at 6:30 am without coffee. Please excuse errors
Troy, that Christian Sioux Falls teacher... what was her name? I seem to recall blogging about her....
Excellent response, LK. We have accountability now. We have a process through which we can examine those subjective decisions and determine whether they are just. Elections may provide an indirect, karmic justice, but they don't allow us to address the specific instance or make the wronged teacher whole again. Voting out a school board member provides no more justice to the wrongly dismissed teacher than dismissing a teacher provides to the student who got an undeserved, spiteful F in Algebra from that teacher last year. In both cases, we need binding due process in the specific situation.
LK:
1) Don't know how many but how many bad ones should we tolerate?
2) I"m having a hard time imagining a situation where MT would justify Cory having to stop blogging. Maybe if he took after fellow teachers or inappropriately mentioned students.
3) Human nature hasn't evolved but information dissemination has for the public to be better informed of the issues which are a temper on abuse.
4) Teachers who err are unlike any other employee. The best practice unless it is egregious is almost always a corrective plan. The idea it will result in wholesale dismissals is specious.
5) Teachers should be at the table but by the knee-jerk response they have to anything proposed (except more money) results in them removing themselves from the table.
"Jesus was an infallible being and one could argue that he lost at least one student; that Judas Iscariot guy didn’t turn out so well."
Wow, that statement justifies Daugaard's plan. Tie the teacher to the performance of the student.
Yikes: there are so many layers of sarcasm in this thread Judas seems like the good guy. Make all teachers ministers in the Church of Hypocritheocrisy.
It's 4:20, let us pray....
Troy,
I didn't have much internet time yesterday, so I couldn't respond.
On point 1: The goal should be to have as few ineffective teachers as possible. I think we agree on that. I think we both will acknowledge that it's impossible to have no bad employees or employers.
On point 2: I sincerely admire your rose colored world view. I refuse to put my full name on any comment here or my own blog posts because I know that certain partisans will contact school board members or administrators to complain. My views are generally more moderate than Cory's, but I believe that a complaint from a person with the right connections will mean that I'm unemployed.
On point 3: It doesn't really matter to this discussion.
On point 4: The prevailing belief is that schools should be good stewards of taxpayers money; therefore, schools should be run with businesslike efficiency. Let's deal with known numbers. Cory has said that he makes around $35,000; South Dakota's starting average is $26,000.
If a school district run with businesslike efficiency can save $9,000 per employee, I find it hard to see how it's "specious" to believe that currently higher paid teachers will be targeted especially since the Republican program asserts that 20% or fewer South Dakota's teachers are excellent whereas 80% or more are average or worse than average. I would guess it's good business sense to replace an average employee with another if one can save $9,000. Further, saving $9,000 per employee will show that school boards are being good stewards of the taxpayers money. Larger school districts like Sioux Falls can easily replace 20-30 experienced teachers a year for 5 years and claim they've saved the district over a million dollars.
5. No one knows if merit pay will increase student achievement. I've offered a modified school year which I believe has a better chance of helping students retain information. No one seems to want to talk about that.
One additional note. Since this bill is going to get rammed through on straight party lines, would you support an amendment that the results of every state mandated test be on students' official high school transcripts and that South Dakota employers be required to get the high school transcripts of all South Dakota graduates? If teachers are to be evaluated on their students' test performance, it strikes me that students, especially high school students, need to be held responsible for their performance as well.