Last updated on 2012.08.16
Rep. Stace Nelson (R-25/Fulton) reports on Twitter and Facebook that he and his Hanson County neighbors have prevailed in court against Brookings dairy developer Michael Crinion. Hanson County Concerned Citizens took their county to court, contending that CAFO kingpin Crinion had not acted within the standard time frame (18 months, I seem to recall) allowed for conditional use permits and that Hanson County was breaking its own rules by letting Crinion indefinitely delay the dairy without re-applying for a permit. In a 14-page ruling, Judge Tim Bjorkman agrees.
I'm hoping to get a look at the ruling shortly. But in the mean time...
Yup, Representative Stace Nelson is Hanson County's buddy, too... as is Rep. R. Shawn Tornow (R-14/Sioux Falls), who successfully argued Hanson County Concerned Citizens' case. Hey, maybe Counselor Tornow should call Barger Construction to help them get their $23,000 from Lake County Dairy!
Update 2012.08.16 06:33 MDT: I've posted a copy of Judge Bjorkman's ruling online. Some highlights:
- The problem wasn't that the dairy delayed construction. Hanson County issued the conditional use permit in violation of its own rules from the beginning. The county Board of Adjustment approved the conditional use permit on August 24, 2007. Developers Crinion and Hugo and Darlene Iburg said they planned to break ground on the dairy in 2009 and have the facility in operation in 2010. Five years later, there is no dairy. Hanson County's Zoning Ordinance says the county shall cancel a permit if work doesn't start within 180 days of issuance or if work isn't done within two years of issuance.
- Hanson County never adopted a formal resolution exempting Hanson County Dairy from the county's statutory timeline.
- Without a resolution, there was no decision for Hanson County Concerned Citizens to appeal; however, Judge Bjorkman says this case is about citizens seeking a writ of mandamus to compel the county to fulfill its statutory duty. And Hanson County has not done its duty. Permit canceled, Crinion must reapply.
Young Mr. Nelson is a political beast running Pampolonian like through the halls. I see him being set up by the political machine as our next Governor.
Set up by what political machine? I thought the political machine hated him, in no small part due to his outspoken role in fighting the Pierre-favored CAFO in favor of local constituents.
Mr. Howie's machine.
Good job Mr. Nelson and the concerned citizens of Hanson County.
I wonder why there are so few young people West of hwy 81? No jobs. People don't want them.
Perhaps their grandkids can deal cards in Deadwood, flip burgers in Sioux Falls or go shoot people in foreign lands. But we sure don't want jobs in Hanson county.
I'm giving a HUGE congratulations to Rep. Nelson,Rep. Tornow,and the Concerned Citizens of Hanson County!!!
I haven't lived in Hanson county in quite a long time,but I was raised there and got my K-12 education in the Hanson School system. Also,my Grandparents had a farm with a small dairy herd in Hanson county and I spent tons of time out on the farm helping out however I could and just being a kid.... and I absolutely loved it.
That being said,the hard working folks on FAMILY farms in Hanson county deserve to be able to continue their operations without worry about a huge facility that could/would significantly damage their ability to compete with such a facility,but to also have to worry about the environmental impact from that facility. My grandparents would be rolling over in their graves if they knew how that proposed dairy would impact their neighbors and what it would have done to their own dairy and perhaps even to their entire farm for that matter.
"But we sure don’t want jobs in Hanson county." ~ Jeff Barth~
You want to give the citizens of Hanson county more jobs?
Great! How about you get some other type of business to locate in Hanson county that will provide jobs,pay a wage that they can actually live and raise families on,and do it without harming the family farms and environment. Hanson county citizens aren't the type of people that will sit idly by and let somebody push them around. They will fight. They did what they needed to do and they got it done. I'm proud of them.
Failed Congressional Candidate Barth ^ Just what types of so-called 'jobs' would these be out in rural Davison Co? I thought you left-winger libs despised low-paying jobs to or for the supposed working poor. Do you somehow think these would be $40k-$50k jobs that would just do wonders for teh local economy? Nope, try the dreaded $8-$9 an hour jobs that will attract who to the workplace market --- oh yeah, I get it, illegal types who are not actually citizens but want the benefit of ALL our services... Oh yeah, and if they try to vote --- gee, who would they vote for the Jeff Barth's or the Matt Varilick's who pander to these folks and get us deeper & deeper in debt or, as the situation may be sonce we're discussing the down-sides of a mega dairy operation: deeper & deeper in s____. S____ that's NOT wanted & not welcome in Hanson County!! Bigtime kudos and a HUGE way-to-go to Stace Nelson and your legal team in this grassroots effort in standing up to uninformed and out of touch government officials at both the county and state level!!!
So illegal immigrants are a problem in SD?
And your anti-business position is in line with Republican philosophy?
AND workers that pay FICA that can't collect are a drain on society?
Sounds like you are Julie Gross with a new nickname.
I do like the hypocrisy of the GOP pretending to care about the environment when it is on their own land, though.
Hopefully Stacey will explain how the lack of funding at the state level short changes the effort.
Hey, "Atlas," back off on the "left-wing" shouting here. You obviously haven't followed one of the major themes of this left-wing blog, which agrees with your rejection of CAFOs as unacceptable environmental risks with insufficient economic benefits. Mr. Barth's statement above on jobs, along with his support for the Keystone XL pipeline, show he does not easily fit any "left-wing lib" stereotype. The fact that Stace Nelson and I stand shoulder-to-shoulder (o.k., my shoulder to his lower rib) on this issue shows the Hanson County Dairy is not a typical left-wing-right-wing shouting match. It's an important issue where people of different political persuasions can find common ground and work together to protect the interests of South Dakotans.
On that same theme, consider the comment from Charlie Johnson. See the new ad up in the sidebar? That's Charlie. He's a Democrat, running for District 8 Senate. Stereotypes would tell you that the last thing he'd want to do is publicly praise a Republican legislator. But he puts decades of knowledge and love for the land practiced in organic farming ahead of his political label and congratulates a Republican legislator on serving the people and the environment.
[And "Atlas," check your e-mail address and give me a shout: the contact info you left with your comment above doesn't work.]
A dairy cow has a $14,000 impact on the local economy. Jobs for veterinarians, carpenters, plumbers, truckdrivers, lawyers and preachers. There is a reason people are from Hanson county and don't live there. No jobs for young people. No jobs for old people.
Try to open a daycare... someone is against it. Try to opend a dog kennel... someone is against it. Change happens.
150 years ago folks were getting shot for putting up barbed wire, a new technology. Today we have the same resistance to newer technology.
That said there is certainly a strong need for prudence and caution on any large project. The dairy may not be the right project but I take no joy in its' defeat. Hanson county is not a museum... yet.
"The fact that Stace Nelson and I stand shoulder-to-shoulder"
Perhaps you Democrats who correctly see the tyranny of corporatism should understand that the conservatives are you allies. I hope you would stop painting conservatives with a brush that is coated with paint taken from the pail manufactured by Establishment RINOs. Chances are it was manufacturing by corporate Chamber of Commerce types, who are socialists dressed in capitalist clothes.
If I want to participate in this anti-corporate capitalist utopia you envision where should I invest my money, Steve?
I thought that the reason people are from Hanson county and don't live there is because of the ease of registering your RV with a Hanson County establishment to avoid income taxes in other states and to take advantage of SD's cheap vehicle registration and insurance rates. An RVer must have about a $100 impact on the local Hanson County economy if you include the work load imposed on the county treasurer. Now there's economic development for Hanson County.
Good point Rorschach. Finding a way to avoid taxes by paying taxes! Reminds me of when I worked at the "telephone company" and we did extra paperwork to reduce paperwork. This needs to go to Scott Adams who draws Dilbert.
Jeff,
While we disagree on alot of things, I've said here you are always thoughtful and honestly give your views. We agree here.
With regards to opposition, I can't help but notice opposition is in violation of the following planks of the South Dakota GOP platform.
1.1 This dairy will utilize new technologies. The opponents are protecting past technologies.
1.2 So much for free markets. They are using the government to impede a legal business from being started.
1.11 They are denying people from utilizing their property as they see fit. So much for the GOP principle of property rights.
2.1 South Dakota has been losing dairy market share for decades. This is economic development to reclaim lost market share and create jobs (both direct at the dairy plus the local spin-off jobs associated with serving the dairy.
P.S. You will not this is more rationale on why this violates the platform than previous scorecards and I am putting my name behind this scoring of this issue.
Who do these RINO's think they are? They are just tools of liberals like Cory. If they want to do the liberals work, they should just register as Democrats. :)
Compromise: force the dairy to be organic.
I think a group just formed to oppose organic anything. Synthetic milk from petroleum has been proven better for you and its' production stops the dangerous gasses that cattle release. (just wait)
Seriously Larry, those opposed would not want a dairy period. But it is a good thought. Many concerns can be worked out if people would just talk to each other.
I find it troubling that the effective and well-organized group, comprising people I know and respect, which acted to stop this dairy can discuss environmental impact, water resources, legal technicalities and road maintenance issues as the reasons for their opposition...
until someone, like Jeff Barth did here, mentions job creation. ( And Ag is about the only sector that is able to create job growth in Hanson County.) Mention "jobs" and the topic jumps to "illegals" - undocumented workers taking unfair advantage of entitlements. This is not the first time this has happened by supporters of the Concerned Citizens. And I think the ease and reliability with which it occurs, diminishes the credibility of their other claims.
If the issue is undocumented workers, then discuss that. But even if there was zero evidence that workers would be undocumented, it's still an effective dog whistle, as Hanson County resident Paul Iburg has contended previously. http://insurancenewsnet.comarticle.aspx?id=310038#.UC0IvqCPmlt For too many people, it doesn't matter. American citizens, legal immigrants and those with valid work visas can still have the wrong skin color or speak the wrong language. They can still "look illegal" and make local residents "feel uncomfortable.". Whether they are documented entry-level farm laborers or legally resident professionals with advanced degrees like the dairy veterinarians profiled in another article, they are assumed likely to be criminals, drug traffickers and worse, poor. These equivalencies are made even while the speakers insist with a straight face, that heavens-to-betsy, no, they are not racist at all. The cynic in me finds it too easy to believe this, not concern for the environment or the neighbors, is the main reason many joined the opposition movement. And until this issue is faced honestly, it will continue to disturb me, another former Hanson County resident, the makeup of Stace Nelson's family notwithstanding.
It never ceases to amaze me how we can get guys like Jones & Barth on here expounding their "wisdoms" when they have no clue what actually transpired.
@Jones Your precious establishment attempted to STATE assist (shove) this megaFOREIGN dairy onto the backs of this community. Only a flaming RINO would think it is okay for the GOVERNMENT to pick the side of a FOREIGN entity over the farmers who built and sustained this community for gernerations. My assistance to my community in fighting such a communist type move, is sound Republican principles. If this was your idea of free market? Limited government? Lower taxes? Then you really don't have a clue on what being a Republican is all about.
@Barth the dairy wanted $1.1 MILLION up front from the county to harden 3 miles of road that the dairy would only benefit from. Any taxes realized from the dairy would take 14+ years to pay that off, that is if it satyed in business (Cough, VEBLEN!), and as most folks with common sense understand, the road would need major repairs even before it was paid off in 14 years! the dairy admitted it was going to have 90-100 $8-9 an hour Ag jobs with no overtime pay or benefits and that they would be bringing in immigrant transient labor to fill those positions. County gets stuck with all the social & infrastructure costs of repairing already worn roads & paying for the English as 2nd language instructors, translators, etc., with no increase in tax revenue but a massive increase in tax revenue usage. Ironic that you & Mr. Jones beleive it is proper for the state government to shove a state assisted business onto the backs of the voters against their wishes, best interests as a community, and against their actual health. Stalin would be proud.
Curious, is it Barbera Hall or Courtney Hall? Courtney Hall, from my understanding was in support of the dairy project as he has much land that he signed up and would have benefited from the ensuing rent wars local farmers would have been put through competing with the state assisted foreign mega-dairy.
For the record, it was Courtne's brother Rod Hall, the former Democratic legislator from Fulton who wrote the commendatory article in the Daily Republic about my efforts to help the vast majority of Hanson County fight this intrusion into their property rights and lives.
NIMBY
Keystone II through someone else's backyard ok, Rep. Nelson? Hyperion? Dakota Dunes? Marion's Meadows?
Stace,
Just reading the platform and scoring your effort against it. I thought that was how we defined Republicans?
And, you raise a new point. I didn't know it was a GOP platform plank to consider the ownership as a criteria as a "good" or "bad" business able to operate in our free economy. Where is that in the platform?
Regarding the building of roads, GOP plank 5.6 supports the transportation infrastructure. If the county deems this road is worthwhile in their discretion (local control), it is consistent with the platform.
Stace, conformance to the platform is a standard for being a good Republican you advocate and have specifically said failing to meet that standard deems one a RINO. I'm just applying the rationale to this issue. If you can't live by the standard, don't be so quick to apply it to others.
Troy Jones,
Maybe you need to get some glasses and read it with out wearing your hate Stace Nelson goggles on? Opposing Communism is a core Republican plank going back to Reagan, wouldn't expect you to get it as you routinely takes sides supporting crony-capitalism, government involvement in the free market, etc.
My involvement here is solid Republicanism, your grasping at straws and flailing about not withstanding.
With all respect, Mr. Nelson, I am who I say I am. I am speaking for myself. I think your publicly questioning my identity on this forum is out of line.
I stated at the beginning of my comment that I have respect for the Concerned Citizens and their successful actions. I also have concerns. If you want to address those concerns with me, please do so. If you don't, ignore me. But don't distract the issue by dragging in the names of other people who have as much right to their opinions (and privacy) as we do to ours.
@Troy Jones in regards to my representing & assisting the vast majority of voters in Hanson County to OPPOSE their state government in aiding a FOREIGN MegaDairy to be located in their county against their best interests and at serious disadvatnage to their ability to compete in the free market, please find the opening statements of the SDGOP platform which clearly shows I am more than good with Republican principles. If you need more, I will smack you around with the specific planks:
"The South Dakota Republican Party believes that the fundamental principles of the Republican Party are rooted in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of South Dakota. The Party supports the preservation of our Republic, its ideals and institutions for the good of all Americans and adamantly opposes the erosion of these cherished freedoms.
The South Dakota Republican Party believes the strength of our nation lies with the individual and that each person's dignity, liberty and integrity must be honored. The Party supports our heritage of religious freedom and personal responsibility and further recognizes the need to be proactive in defending our freedom at every level against infringement of our sovereignty.
The South Dakota Republican Party recognizes the free enterprise system and the work ethic of our people as the foundation of our economic success and security.
The South Dakota Republican Party believes the 21st Century requires continued responsible leadership. Leadership must neither burden nor hinder individual rights and efforts. Leadership must also be mindful of the Republican Platform and the fundamental principles of the Constitution of the United States of America. We believe the most effective and responsible government is government closest to the people.
The South Dakota Republican Party believes the proper role of government is to provide for the people only those critical functions that cannot be performed by individuals or private organizations. The best government is that which governs least."
Barbera Hall,
Your comments claiming Hanson County Residents are racists, because they do not want to pay the bill for this foreign dairy to exploit immigrants, are disrespectful of the good people of this community, an ugly lie, and more than out of line!
Please explain your relationship to Mr. Courtney Hall, folks deserve to know the background of your claims.
What is racist is the exploitation of immigrants at these type of facilities. It is modern day slavery and something we should all be opposed to. Instead of having the state help create these low-paying jobs for companies to import and exploit these poor people, keeping wages in SD for legal workers low while sticking taxpayers with the costs for these subsidized wages, it should be fought at all levels.
Stace,
I cited five planks of the platform which you said is the standard. You have not told me how they don't apply.
The hate comment is goofy. Can't one disagree with you without you thinking it is hate. Equally goofy is calling one a communist for the GOP platform and asking for conformance.
If it makes you feel better, I don't hate you (I've never even met you) and I am not a communist. Do you hate me? If not, let's just put the slurs aside.
Hanson County should consider hosting a Muslim-American FEMA camp.
Mr. Jones,
Some of us here have not yet forgotten your ugly comments in which you discussed my genitalia and how you fantasized about walking up and kicking me in the groin. That, isn't goofy but ahteful and probably an actual criminal threat.
The rest of your comments are insincere baiting. I have neither the time nor the wherewithal to play your ignorant games. You though are free to cite what you think makes it proper under the SDGOP platform for the "state" to intervene in the free market by helping a foreign business entity to relocate on top of current taxpaying South Dakotans against their best interests and using their own tax dollars against them.
...or a regional self-deportation center.
I did not call anyone racist. I quoted a generic type of comment that I have heard many times and read in many articles about this issue openly equating "immigrants" with "illegal immigrants" and making the implication that they are linked to crime with it's inherent social costs - comments which often end in the speaker (not me) accusing others of playing the race card in an attempt to divert the argument from these false equivalencies.
I have long advocated social policies that would address ending the exploitation of people, including the immigrants you are concerned for. There is agreement between us. But that accord can be undermined when the concerns are tainted with exaggerated fears that lead to labeling others as different and then using those fears and differences to justify discriminatory rhetoric. Now that this dairy has been stopped, what should we do next to stop other exploitation? How can we work together in this effort in which we agree?
I am here to read and learn and occasionally post an opinion. Being called a liar is not what I expect when I am making an effort to explain what I mean and to do so in a respectful manner. Have a good day.
Hanson County: Home of South Dakota Division of ObamaCare Death Panels.
South Dakota School for the Deaf Groin Kickers.
South Dakota Home for the Criminally Partisan.
@Barbara You cite Paul Iburg who specifically called those opposed to the dairy as racists. Additionally you in as much say as such in your post above.
In regards to Mr. Courtney Hall whom you refuse to confirm your relationship to, Mr. Hall made disrespectful comments about myself and those opposed to the dairy to a group of folks in Alexandria when myself and Mr. Bender were not present. You will have to escuse me if I am less than patient with claims that these hard working taxpayers are racists because they do not want to subsidize cheap labor for a foriegn dairy.
In regards to trying to do something about the exploitation of immigrants, I have worked hard the last two years to support laws that would protect South Dakotans from the ills of illegal immigration. Laws that would have also had the secondary effect of preventing the exploitation and abuses of immigrants: http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2012/Bill.aspx?Bill=1139
AND http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2012/Bill.aspx?Bill=1238
I am always open to honest discussion; however, attacking the people I love in this county as racists warrants the condemnation provided.
P.S. Your capitalization of the word foreign indicates it is a critical criteria. As a free trade party, I'd like to see where that is in either the national or state platform. The national party platform supports greater and expanded free trade agreements, all of which prohibit trading partners from discriminating based on nationality. If an activity is legal in the host country, we expect them to allow American investment in their country and promise a reciprocal treatment here.
It appears you are advocating a criteria directly in opposition to our national platform unless the foriegn owner is not from a nation with which we have free trade agreements. What is the nationality of the owner?
"Our trade policy rests firmly on the foundation of free and open markets. I recognize ... the inescapable conclusion that all of history has taught: The freer the flow of world trade, the stronger the tides of human progress and peace among nations." (Ronald Reagan)
"We should be trying to foster the growth of two-way trade, not trying to put up roadblocks, to open foreign markets, not close our own." (Ronald Reagan)
And, somehow I think this is appropriate:
Talking about both immigration and free trade: "I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and heart to get here." (Ronald Reagan's farewell address to the nation when he left the Presidency)
Stace Nelson: keeping Alexandria safe for white Americans.
@Jones Yet another claimed Republican who hasn't read the party platform, even when provided above:
"..further recognizes the need to be proactive in defending our freedom at every level against infringement of our sovereignty."
Pray tell, how is it protecting our sovereignty when the STATE expends South Dakotan tax dollars to help a FOREIGN business to relocate on top of South Dakotans who have been paying taxes in our communities for generations, against their own best interests?
Mr Obama... errr Mr. Jones, when the state is involved in picking winners and losers, it is not free trade.
I digress.
Please Mr. Jones, explain to all of us poor Republican hicks how it is beneficial to South Dakota taxpayers for the STATE to give their tax dollars to FOREIGN businesses to relocate into their communities on top of their already stressed South Dakota businesses. How is that free trade? Limited government? Lower taxes?
Of course, Corrections Corporation of America World Headquarters!
Imagine it: Get Trooper Bader and his buddies out on I-90 and process them like cattle!
Drones over Dimmock: The New America!
Troy, you are right. There are a number of planks that you refer that violate the platform's preamble regarding free markets. I tried to fix that hypocrisy, but the lobbyists that stacked the plarform committee at this year's convention would have nothing to do with it. They thought it was a good idea to have governemnt interfere with a free market in the name of public/private partnerships and economic development. The SDGOP brand of economic thought is fascism, government control of the private sector, picking winners and losers. Don't fault Stace for being forced into the government whelm to work on reestablishing a truly free market.
Stace,
As much as I'd like to play chinese baseball with you (this is a game where I hit the ball, run to the base and you move it all the time), I'd just prefer to discuss the facts. I didn't call you a hick and I didn't call you a communist.
I am very happy to answer your questions. I just need to know where the bases are as they seem to be moving all over the place. And, in a sign of good faith, I will answer your question with the good faith expectation you will answer mine.
1) How do my comments and interpretation to the platform planks not apply?
2) What is the nationality of the ownership?
3) Explain how allowing a foriegn company is a threat to our sovriegnty, especially in light how we as a nation freely entered into free trade agreements (you are advocating a criteria directly in violation of them) and our national party specifically supports these free trade agreements.
4) What is your specific objections to the dairy? Is it because it is opposed by people in your district? Is it its ownership? Is it because it is promoted by the Governor, including receiving state assistance? Is it because of who it will hire? Is it the planned wages? Do you fundamentally oppose large agriculture operations?
Now to my answering of your comments, expecting from you the same courtesy:
Nelson: "Pray tell . . .best interests?"
The United States has freely in the exercise of their soverienty has entered into free trade agreements, our party endorses them, that expressly prohibits discriminating with regard to economic activity based on the nationality of ownership. American agriculture is one of if not the biggest beneficiary of free trade agreements. While you may think this one example is adverse to the parochial interests of these particular farmers, if we tolerate selective violation of the free trade agreements we harm all farmers more than the harm to any one famer or select group by opening up retaliation against American agriculture products.
Nelson: "How is this free trade?"
Access to programs available to Americans must be made available to non-Americans under the same requirements is a component of the free trade agreement.
Nelson: "Limited government?"
I not sure I understand the questions. Please elaborate if this answer is in appropriate. How is using the government to prevent a lawful business enterprise from operating limited government?
Nelson: "Lower taxes?"
Again, I might not understand your question. A premise of the GOP free enterprise positions is business creation begets jobs, increased economic activity, and more tax revenues (leading to lower taxes for everyone).
Anything else I need to answer?
Gawd, Steve: South Dakota is known globally for being an environmental black hole. Why worry now?
what happened to the article about campaign finance?
Steve,
The prior standard was "a good Republican is one who abides by the platform."
Now you are claiming that the platform written is not truly Republican, what makes a good Republican and legitimate Republican planks (the rest to be ignored) is the exclusive perogative of you, Stace, who?
Stace, I have an additional question now. Do you agree with Steve that the GOP platform is illigitimate?
@Mr. Jones,
Hmmm, I noticed that you didn't address the historic facts around your hateful comments towards me?
Your comments about the Chinese is ignorant at best, racist at worst. I happen to know they play American style baseball, and they do so very well.
#1 They are not in context with the circumstances of the case at hand. You simply throw up statements and throw them against the wall. Cite the specifics to the cases at hand. In order to do so, you would have to research and make yourself aware of the details of the case at hand. Spend several months doing so, then get back with us.
#2 Ignorant question. All speculation. There is no owner. Again, research what the issues are before you run off at the fingers.
#3 Your question is not based upon my statements or the facts at hand but your ignorance of the circumstances. Ask me a question relevant to the issues and I will be happy to address it.
#4 The communities objections are well documented, maybe you should do proper research before jumping into something you have no clue about? The basics are the proposed dairy was a net liability for taxpayers in the community and threatens and impedes their property rights.
"Best interests & free trade"
Violation of the free trade agreement? What are you smoking? So let me get this straight, you are saying it is meet and proper for the STATE to take an active role in a FOREIGN entity taking over portions of an American community by using the very tax dollars this community paid and using them against the community? But it is illegal for those same taxpayers to afford themselves of protecting their own historic property rights via their own judicial system? Wow!
"Free trade"
What program are you claiming was used to facilitate the dairy aside from corruption? Is perjury, and removing a sitting legislator off the Ag Committee available to everyone trying to start up or expand businesses in SD against the best interests of local communities?
"Limited government"
You REALLY need to read the SDGOP platform: "We believe the most effective and responsible government is government closest to the people.
The South Dakota Republican Party believes the proper role of government is to provide for the people only those critical functions that cannot be performed by individuals or private organizations. The best government is that which governs least.†CLEARLY, the STATE should NOT be involved in promoting the interests of a FOREIGN business over the best interests of South Dakotans! AGAIN! You haven't bothered to understand what was at issue here. The local government violated local residents" property rights at the behest of the STATE. Helping the local residents to LIMIT the government's illegal actions is clearly a Republican principle.
"Lower taxes"
Your answer is asinine in that you know that there was no free enterprise here when the state was rigging the system for the proposed dairy to win out over the local market.
Sitting here feeling pretty stupid for having responded to you when you have no clue what is going on and your only agenda is to bear bait.
How much and from what source was the water for the operation coming?
I don't really have a dog in the fight over who is a better Republican, that's kind of oxymoronic from my perspective.
I do think Mr. Nelson has made a strong case for his position, kudos. I bet the landowners subjected to eminent domain by Keystone XL wish they had somebody that would have stood up for them in a similar way. That seems to be the other side of the same coin.
I don't know many of the details, so I have to ask this question: What form did the Governor's support of the dairy take? Was it from the large business development fund? Tax credits or tax abatements? How much was the state going to give them?
Exactly, Justin: who is the better earth hater?
Stace,
I expected too much from you. I asked specific questions. I answered the questions specifically.
You actually consider this intelligent response to questions?
#1: I referenced specific platform planks, gave more context and rationale than previous scorecards. If this is interpretation is incorrect in your opinion and the context is not right, specifically address them. As an elected official, educate the public. Convince us you should be listened to.
#2: You are the one who said their was "FORIEGN ownership." Now you say there is no owner. Which is it? And what does this comment mean "speculation?" Are you speculating it is foreign ownership but don't have proof? Really?
#3: You are the one who claimed you are "protecting our sovereignty." Pretty serious business in Hanson County. I think such a threat to our nation should be explained. Please do so. Does the Governor need to call out the National Guard?
#4: I didn't ask what the community's opposition was. I asked what yours was. I would think you would be proud to explain the specifics.
I admit to being unable to decipher the rest of your rambling. And I'm sorry you feel stupid.
When I see the names of Nelson-Tornow together I recognize the freak wing of the Republican Party is in action. Ready to decide for a woman, ready to decide for a property owner. Snakes and fakes flocking together.
Stace, just because it has been your custom to bully people with your size and your shouts does not make you right. I don't like being called Stalin or ignorant.
Personally, I am aware that there are things I don't know and things I do know that aren't so. So generally I listen, give my opinion and listen again.
The French writer Andre Gide said, "Speak to those who seek the truth, avoid those that have found it."
Good eye, Jeff: how will postponing this snafu affect the unsustainable cheese factory near Brookings?
Jeff,
First, opposiition to the dairy could be legitimate. I really don't care if opposition is by Stace or Cory. To dismiss it because of its opponents is an ad hominem attack.
Second, Stace says the only criteria upon which to judge a Republican is adherence to the GOP platform. I'm trying to understand why opposition to a legal business activity is consistent with the GOP Platform.
Third, Stace has raised the spectre of "FOREIGN ownership" and I'm trying to understand the relevance, whether it as a criteria and is relevant is legal.
Fourth, Stace is also saying there is "no owner" which is impossible.
Fifth, I would like to hear Stace's specific rationale for opposition.
"Now you are claiming that the platform written is not truly Republican, what makes a good Republican and legitimate Republican planks"
What I am saying is there are a handful of planks that don't fit on the ship, and RINOs put them there. Purpose, to confuse conservatives about what a truly free market is. Read Road to Serfdom.
Oops
Should read "whether it as a criteria is relevant or legal."
Troy, how can the dairy be free market when you have the SD Sec of Ag and the SD governor going to bat for it. In a free market, the government does not pick winners and losers. A question, in a free market can one participant drain the water out from underneath another?
Steve,
Your position creates two scenarios:
1) The Platform is illegitimate from which to judge anyone or
2) We need someone to rule on the legitimate planks. Who do you propose that be?
How come Nelson's being a pudknocker again? I thought he got that out of his system.
Troy,
Read the preamble, then read the planks your brought forward. NOw do you agree with Joel Arends who argued that the planks were amendments that changed the meaning of the preamble? Same logic would sat that the amendments to teh US Constitution destroyed the original Constitution and made it "illegitimate" (your word). So is that what you RINIOs are trying to do to teh SDGOP platform, make it illegitimate (again your word)?
Fleming no doubt you will never get being a troll out of your system.
Sorry, need to slow down and check my typing.
@Troy Shhhhh! you have seen the errors in our case, we simply told the judge we didn't like the people behind it and he bought it! Give me a break, read the court case, then come back with educated questions. I have no time nor desire to play your games.
@Barth I am sorry you feel bullied by my stature here on the blog. Please afford yourself of a victim/witness counselor and seek medical assistance. Maybe you should reconsider engaging in these online discussion if your condition is so sensative. Additionally, maybe you should learn what the heck is actually going on before wading in with your walk in the park shoot (poorly) from the hip rhetoric?
Good to see we have so many experts on the matter who have never even bothered reading the court documents.
Steve,
Fair question. But, before we can get into that item so I have the proper context (which Stace says I'm missing), I would like to resolve two other items.
1) What the leader's (or one of the leaders) of the opposition rationale is for opposition. It can help me form a position.
2) This leader is also a County GOP official and an elected GOP representative who asserts the only people who can call themselves Republican are those who conform to the GOP platform. I want him to explain his opposition in context of the GOP platform.
How is this not a signal to raise the minimum wage, too?
Stace,
The court case was simple and direct with regard to permitting. Your opposition is broader. I'm asking questions about your opposition to the dairy.
Or are you saying if they re-applied, you would support their permitting as you just want the technicalities of the process followed (which as a lawmaker I would totally understand)?
Mr. Jones,
Please show the world where I ever made the statements that you attribute to me, to wit: "who asserts the only people who can call themselves Republican are those who conform to the GOP platform"
Your problem is with South Dakota Republicans who are sick of their elected Republican elected officials claiming to be conservative Republicans, never reading the actual platform, and voting against Republican principles.
You can want in one hand and throw ball with the other. I have better things to do than play your ignorant petty games.
Yay: Stace is the better earth hater!
Mr. Jones,
Please read my comments to the Argus & the Daily Republic papers in the morning. Please also look back at the front page large article the Argus did several months ago. Any legitimate questions are answered therein.
"But, before we can get into that item so I have the proper context (which Stace says I’m missing), I would like to resolve two other items."
Troy, I know what you are up to. You want to make the platform illegitimate so that Foreign dairies can take over rural South Dakota and sell milk to French chessemakers in Brookings, while the bought out and broke farmers are forced to go into debt attending MTIs so they can work for the corporatists at $12 an hour.
In a truly free market, the government's role is to prevent such corruption, not fund it.
Stace, you asked. I will deliver. Here is one.
"I am a South Dakota voter Republican that believes in the party platform which prescribes what a real Republican does when they are supposed to ride for the brand."
http://dakotawarcollege.com/%e2%80%9cwhen-you-judge-another-you-do-not-define-them-you-define-yourself-%e2%80%9d-wayne-dyer-author/comment-page-1/#comment-136856
"Please feel free to post the SDGOP planks that you feel show that the SD Liberty Caucus were wrong in their understanding of the grading of these bills above in regards to the SDGOP Platform. At a glance, all of them appear to be clear GOP issues that have clear GOP planks to support their professed grading understandings." (Isn't this exactly what I did above? First, point out planks that appear to contradict your position and then ask you to explain as you did this person?)
http://dakotawarcollege.com/sd-liberty-caucus-legislator-evaluation-more-of-the-same/comment-page-1/#comment-136122
Steve,
I am trying to do no such thing. You are the one who said the platform was essentially illegitimate. And, when you said that, I'm then trying to reconcile if your position is correct (which I disagree), how can it be a document with which to judge who is a good Republican or who gets to decide which planks are legitimate.
So much for getting straight answers from Stace Nelson.
He wants to be a leader, claims to be a true Republican, stakes positions on issues he asserts are important to the public, creates standards he won't accept when applied to himself, won't give straight answers to direct questions, resorts to calling those who call him out "communist" or other names, and then says it is a petty game.
Coward and bully. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Mr. Jones,
My comment and your claims as to what the comment was, are not the same. You did not deliver.
Very interesting to see you taking note of the Republican Party Platform, even though it is apparent you have not read or support the planks therein.
Mr. Jones,
Just when I think you have gotten as low as you can go, you wiggle in the mud and prove me wrong.
Being a leader is not something one aspires to be. It is a mantle that weighs heavy on the shoulder and furrows the brow. I put that pack back on for the community I love, I will not regret when it is lifted from me.
Actions speak louder than your paltry words. Please tell it walking as I tire of your ignorance and your arrogance.
Stace,
So if those quote don't prove you assert that one must follow the GOP platform, specific votes/positions that appear to contradict the platform do not define if one is a worthy to call themselves a Republican, I take it you do not subscribe to that standard. Is that correct?
If you do not subscribe to that standard, do you:
1) Repudiate scorecards that make the claim people are not good Republicans if they take positions that appear to contradict the platform?
2) Do you believe people can hold positions in conflict with a particular GOP plank and still be Republicans in good standing?
3) Do you believe that good Republicans can have diverse, yet legitimate, differences about what position conforms to the platform.
4) Do you believe that good Republicans can have a legitimate difference of opinion about which plank takes precedence if there is a conflict between platform planks?
5) Do you believe a good Republican remains a good Republican if he takes a position in conflict with the GOP platform to represent the collective will of his consituents?
Madville Times: South Dakota's source for in depth discussion on Republican principles?
Get your cold beer here! Cold beers!
I called Mr. Howie and asked if he is behind the cowardly attacks that have the entertaining picture cards. He yelled at me and hung up so I don't think it is he. Is it possible that Mr. Fleming or one of those devious minds of his has concocted this whole "anonymous slimeball attack" on GOP leadership just to blame it on the crazies and stir up infighting? Or even maybe just for his own entertainment? Bill, I know you're laughing about those cards and they look to have been put together by a professional advertising maker.
Grudz, you told us all you knew who it was and you were to blame, I am confused.
Justin,
Well, since he and Cory are on the same side of this issue and HB1234, maybe it best he join your party. He told me to join the Democrats on an issue Cory and I agreed on (forget the issue). :)
Be sure to keep a cold one for me. I'm known to crack a few open with Democrats. Don't keep them all for yourself.
I can't speak for the Democratic party, but I welcome both of you to agree with me on every issue!
Mr. Justin, I thought it was a couple of disgruntled Conservatives with Common Sense members, and that I had driven them to commit these cowardly acts.
I was wrong. I am not to blame.
I guess that just leaves conservatives without common sense.
So we have narrowed it down to a few hundred thousand :)
I couldn't give a rat's arse about the Republican platform or who is a real Republican. Stace and the concerned citizens engaged in the process of democracy. They publicized a cost-benefit analysis of a proposed business that would likely have brought a net negative to county taxpayers, while simultaneously reducing property values and quality of life for neighbors. They were forced to sue because the county wasn't even following its own zoning ordinance. I'm proud of what these folks accomplished.
Jeff, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in deciding what kind of development is prudent in Minnehaha County. But as a county commissioner you are aware of the need to follow zoning ordinances. The court made the right decision here. And if I become aware of you rolling out the red carpet for a welfare queen stink farm that can't stand on its own financial footing without draining the county highway funds and burdening social services - that is when you will lose my support.
In general I would be much more supportive of these types of operations if I had any faith at all in DENR protecting our air and water.
Fascinating criss-crossing threads!
Stace, on Barbara's question: do you have any sense of what the primary concerns of the Hanson County Concerned Citizens are? If you polled them, how many would say they are worried about the environmental impact of the CAFO? How many would say they are worried about illegal immigration? How many would say they are worried about the county following strictly proper legal procedure? How do these motivations and others rank among the opponents? (If they're willing, I'll host a poll for them all to vote on here!)
On platform purity: I want to give Stace Nelson credit for challenging this CAFO. He's a well-known Republican taking the side on this issue that (at last stereotypically) puts him in the same camp as Democrats like me. I don't want to discourage him from acting in ways that might appear to violate the party platform for the greater good of his constituents. But as Troy points out, Stace has been quite hawkish in dinging other legislators for platform violations.
Troy's platform jujitsu makes a point about the platform shouting Nelson and his allies have used against Republicans they don't like: the platform is a flexible document, open to interpretation on specific policies. Troy can point out numerous ways in which opposition to dairy CAFOs violates the platform; Stace can respond that the state's favoring of big dairies over small dairies is anti-capitalist, anti-family farm, anti-South Dakotan....
Jeff: jobs? Don't we always have to measure jobs against other costs and benefits? We could put a lot of women to work as hookers if we legalized prostitution, but should we?
(And Jeff: synthetic milk from petroleum? Really?! Send me a link!)
I think the synthetic milk from petroleum is an urban myth started about McDonald's shakes in the 70's because they call their shakes "shakes" not "milk shakes". But they certainly contain real dairy.
Here is Snopes addressing the commonly held belief: http://www.snopes.com/horrors/food/mcdshake.asp
Stace,
The Argus didn't print your rationale for opposition. And as you said in the Mitchell paper there is plenty of reasons to not approve the permit. Let us know those reasons.
And, looking forward to know your answers to the questions a few posts up on your views on scorecards.
Don't be disingenuous Troy. Stace has written many reasons for opposing this dairy in this thread. Read them.
Good eye, R: the SDGOP platform is more than just mythos; it's pathos, too.
Rorscach,
If those reasons peppered through his posts are his reasons, he needs to explain those reasons clearly in opposition to the platform if he thinks one must adhere to the platform to not be a RINO. Or he needs to repudiate those who are criticizing other's who might have a position in opposition to the platform.
Stace can pick either standard but he can't have it both ways.
Back in 1962 in his book, Profiles of the Future, Arthur C. Clarke proposed extracting protein from petroleum.
"Isaac Asimov, the biochemist and science fiction writer, suggested that poly-lipids could form a substitute for proteins in a non-polar solvent such as methane or liquid hydrogen."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Methane
Rorschach -
Again good points from you. I would not disagree with the Judge's decision. The law must be followed. The delay caused by the project foes seemes to have worked.
But changes will continue to happen.
Cory-
I was just teasing about milk from oil but I appreciate Larry finding info on it. Synthetic man of the future will probably consume Soylent Green rather than milk or... oil.
"You are the one who said the platform was essentially illegitimate. And, when you said that, I’m then trying to reconcile if your position is correct (which I disagree), how can it be a document with which to judge who is a good Republican or who gets to decide which planks are legitimate."
The planks that are legitimate are the ones that support the preamble. What is not legitimate are those planks added by you RINOs that support public/private partnership in the name of economic development. That violates the preamble in regard to a compettive free market and has allowed corruption to enter the economic system. The big get bigger and the little guy gets taken out, thus eliminating competition. So what part of a "competitive free market" do your not understand Troy? Again, I brought forward that argument during the platform committee and the lobbyists on that committee completely ignored my argment. Why? Because it threatens their corrupted system that allows them to obtain lobbying fees from corporatists, such as foreign mega-dairies.
" And as you said in the Mitchell paper there is plenty of reasons to not approve the permit. Let us know those reasons."
I just repeated one in my last comment Troy. Pay attention.
Steve,
Your position (the government has no role in economic development) is your position. I understand and appreciate it (don't agree with it but appreciate it). But that is not the position of the South Dakota Republican Party as evidenced by the platform planks.
I also appreciate that you believe the advocates for that plank are not "real" Republicans in your mind. But, frankly, you don't get to decide who are "real" Republicans. Your view has no more standing than mine or even Republicans with whom we both disgree.
Are there planks I would change if it were my exclusive perogative? Probably. There are certainly some you would change. But, nobody has given you or me the authority to be the King of the GOP.
Some months ago, you were involved in a scorecard that selected bills, interpreted planks, and then graded people with regard to their fidelity to the platform. You are the only person who has claimed involvement for which I do applaud you for standing behind your work.
However, you were appointed by nobody but yourself and your comrades to pick bills or interpret the platform. More critically, you are now saying you get to choose which planks are legitimate planks for which you can demand fidelity.
Parties are a collection of generally like-minded people. I only agree with one Republican 100% of the time and that is me. Just as it is unreasonable for me to expect everyone else to agree always with me, you can't expect everyone to always agree with you. If you do, there is one party for you- The Steve Sibson Party.
If you want to work change priorities/positions of the Republican Party, I encourage you to do so. But, if you want your efforts to be fruitful, you must respect and understand you will not get your way all the time. And, you must respect those who disagree with you. If you refuse to respect honest disagreement (or accuse those you disagreement of dishonesty), you will be treated likewise.
You should also realize it is noted that you and many of your group have expended much effort to demonize fellow Republicans (at best you call us "sheep" and often much worse). But, little effort to criticize those with whom you have more significant and broader disagreement.
And, frankly Steve, it causes them (not me as I believe you are sincere) to wonder what your real motive is. Credibility to others is within your control. And, you may be wise to guard your credibilty a bit more diligently if you want to change anyone's mind.
@Rorschach Spot on!
@Mr "H," Ronald Reagan would not have used the federal government to force a foreign business down the throats of a community against their best interests and try and call it free market. The Preamble alone shows that I was well within good Republican principles to oppose the "state" from imposing this dairy on the community. As Sibby and others pointed out to the bear bating Jones, it isn't free market when the government is picking winners and losers.
@Jeff Barth "The delay caused by the project foes seemes to have worked." Pray tell wise Jeff Barth, what delays by the "project foes" do you speak of that would have impacted the judges decision that the permit should have been canceled in 2009? The "project foes" did not get organized until the summer of 2011. So what magical tricks did they employ in 2011 to affect the dairy not complying with the law in 2009?
Cory, I would assume most Concerned Citizens had a combination of reasons for their opposition. These would most likely be distilled to the financial impact in a poll like the one you suggest. It would likely provide a posed picture of this monetary concern, but nothing more in the way of answers to an admittedly complex and sensitive issue.
In the meantime, there's a non-debate at the State Fair, a list of new legislative candidates, and a national election coming up that would all provide more timely issues imho.
@Mr Jones In regards to your demands and claims I "need to address" this or that with you. No, I don't. You are not interested in the details of the matters concerning the residents of Hanson County. If you were, you would have kept abreast of the issues and have at least a working understanding of the matter as our host does. Your idiotic efforts to claim that I am afoul of the SDGOP platform is a very weak attack and worse than comparing apples to dragon fruit. Your biggest problem is picking this issue to try and claim that good Republicans support the expansion of government involvement to include giving it the power to pick winners and losers in business. Every red blooded American Republican knows such actions are the antithesis of what a real Republican is.
Stace,
The state has no authority to force anything on Hanson County. The Hanson County commissioners are free to reject a permit and there will be no dairy.
Furthermore, whether your like it the GOP platform contains a platform plank that allows for economic development activities from the state. It is noted this is a plank you disagree with yet carry an R behind your name. I assume you will extend the same courtesy to other Republican's who disagree with a plank or your interpretation of the platform to carry and R behind their name.
Finally, since you on one hand say there is "no owner" and on the other hand say it is a "foriegn business," I don't know which of your statements is false but both can not be true. But realize having ownership as a criteria contradicts the greatest free-trade President, Ronald Reagan, since Ike/JFK who was diligent at ensuring foreign investment wasn't discriminated against just as he expected American investment abroad to not be discriminated against.
Two other comments:
1) Don't hang your hat on being a pure free market person. The very fact that this dairy has to go to the government for permission to start up and operate is a limit on the free market. You are utilizing a power of the government to restrict this business. I don't disagree with the legitimacy of such a restriction. I'm just saying don't claim to be "free market" when your act is to limit the market.
2) It appears you have undertaken this cause because you don't believe the dairy is good for your area even if your opposition violates certain planks of the GOP platform. That is what public servants do-put the interests of their consituents first. But don't you think people with whom you disagree (on this or other issues) might also as sincerely be representing the interests of their constituents?
Regarding your last rant. I don't expect you to have the courage to answer straight questions.
Just know you lecturing other's on following the platform when you clearly are picking and choosing only exposes, don't lecture others on being free market when you are using the government to inhibit a business.
To do so is the definition of:
Hypocricy: the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's actual behaviour.
"the platform is a flexible document, open to interpretation on specific policies"
And now Cory wants to make the SDGOP platform illegitimate.
@Troy Jones What the Republican Party Platform does not condone is the corruption in our state government that went to criminal measures to help this foreign interest try and flop down on the families and community of Hanson County.
I reject your assertions out right. Your ugly hatred of someone you don't know is pathalogical at this point. You react in this very same fashion every time you find my name in print. All one has to do is pull up your temper tantrums when the Argus ran the front page story.
I simply don't have the time nor the patience to deal with your ugly dishonest tirades.
I wear your scorn as a badge of honor. You are a paper tiger without even the courage to follow through on your published perverted threats to assault me. If you should ever garner the courage to follow through on your cowardly comments, please ensure that I am aware so that I may give you the proper greeting for your efforts.
After last session. I was so disgusted with the corruption and dishonesty I did not want to run again. Folks here in my district ran my petitions around and I accepted the request to run for re-election with the most signatures of any legislative candidate this year.
That is something that will never happen to you. You are nothing but hot air and ugliness.
Let me know when you have the courage to follow through on your cowardly threats...
"Your position (the government has no role in economic development) is your position. I understand and appreciate it (don’t agree with it but appreciate it). But that is not the position of the South Dakota Republican Party as evidenced by the platform planks."
My position comes from the platform's preamble. You will also find it in the ag planks. I tried to make the platform consistent, but the lobbyists want the government to interfere with the competitive free market and eliminate competition. Just look at the Manpower deal.
"But, frankly, you don’t get to decide who are “real†Republicans."
No the US Constitition, the SD Constititon, and the DOE do, as stated by the preample of the SDGOP platform.
"However, you were appointed by nobody but yourself and your comrades to pick bills or interpret the platform."
We all have a duty to protect the US Costitution and the SD Constitution, even if it means we are attacked by RINOs and their Democrat cohorts for interpreting the platform.
"If you do, there is one party for you- The Steve Sibson Party."
Or perhaps the Constituttion Party. The GOP has become the party of the corrupt thanks to RINOs using government to destroy competition and give subsidies to big business.
" If you refuse to respect honest disagreement (or accuse those you disagreement of dishonesty), you will be treated likewise."
I respect honest disagreement, but will call corruption what it is.
"And, you may be wise to guard your credibilty a bit more diligently if you want to change anyone’s mind."
Wow Troy what ever happened to your advice on respecting honest disagreement?
"Furthermore, whether your like it the GOP platform contains a platform plank that allows for economic development activities from the state."
Which violates the platform's preamble. The RINO lobbyists refused to fix it.
"Don’t hang your hat on being a pure free market person. The very fact that this dairy has to go to the government for permission to start up and operate is a limit on the free market. "
Again you don't understand the correct role of govenment, and that is to protect the free market from coercion and corruption, which is what the County government neglected to do. Thankfully we have a good judge to step in and correct the matter.
"Hypocricy: the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one’s actual behaviour."
Like saying we have to respect those we disagree with and then attack my credibility one breath later.
Steve,
I disagree sometimes with you. And it is honest disagreement. I don't doubt your passion and sincerity. I specifically said I do not hold the position some do of you.
Stace,
That rant was just what I expected. You definitely do not surprise.
@Sibby God bless you my friend, you are wasting your time.
@Troy Jones I can be found in Hanson County. Please feel free to come on over anytime. Heck, I will even treat you at Big "Joe's" cafe. I will give you a tour of the area and explain the ins and outs of why the vast majority of Hanson County are opposed to the dairy. If you are going to hate somebody and be as ugly as you are towards someone, you should at least meet them first. Maybe Sibby can join us for a bite to eat?
Come on Troy, join us for lunch and bring a copy of the Road to Serfdom and we can tie that to what is going on in South Dakota thanks to the Economic Development Corporations operating in this state.
@Troy Jones My offer is sincere. You claim to have legitimate questions. Come on over.
@Stace: You may want to invite Jeff Barth to that tour and lunch as well. I have the distinct impression that the only thing he knows about Hanson County is that it exists,but nothing about who lives there and why it has "no jobs." Introduce him to people,show him all of that farmland, and explain why it isn't some industrialized metropolis.
2012.08.16 at 11:47: "I have neither the time nor the wherewithal to play your ignorant games." 2012.08.16 at 13:30: "Sitting here feeling pretty stupid for having responded to you when you have no clue what is going on and your only agenda is to bear bait." 2012.08.16 at 14:57
"You can want in one hand and throw ball with the other. I have better things to do than play your ignorant petty games." 2012.08.16 at 16:01: "Actions speak louder than your paltry words. Please tell it walking as I tire of your ignorance and your arrogance." 2012.08.17 at 10:07: "I reject your assertions out right. Your ugly hatred of someone you don’t know is pathalogical at this point. You react in this very same fashion every time you find my name in print. All one has to do is pull up your temper tantrums when the Argus ran the front page story.
I simply don’t have the time nor the patience to deal with your ugly dishonest tirades."
Yet you keep coming back; and call out his behavior as pathological and accuse him of 'hating' you. Wow. You've heard of the phrase pot calling the kettle black, right?
You got me "Rick." I should be more like the rest of your elected officials and not sully my good name by making myself available on these forums. Or, just post semi-anonymously/anonymously and take cheap shots from the shadows.
Stace,
I do not have a position on the dairy except to say I believe SD agriculture must always be willing to re-invent itself to be relevant to current market questions. Consumer expectations as well as various government regulations with regard to tracking/origin of food makes it harder and harder for the smallest operators to stay in business, necessitating a graduation in some areas to larger operations. That said, I would be interested to hear reasons why it is in the public interest to restrict a legal business activity from starting in Hanson County. So, I may take you up on your offer.
But my main interest is to get answers how a person who has been hawkish on the Republican Platform as more than a guide but a means to judge one's "Republicanism" and chastise others who do not live up to his standards of adherence justifies violating at least five planks of the platform (a standard he was in the past not tolerating in others).
And, just for the record, I will not accept the argument anyone individual or self-appointed group is infallible for which planks are "truly Republican" and which are able to be ignored.
1) Either the entire Platform (Preamble and planks) is a general guide represented concensus positions of the broad party as approved by those who attend conventions open to diverse interpretation of meaning which planks take precedence when there appears to be a conflict, or
2) It is a document in which Republicans (at least elected Republicans) must adhere without regard to local issues or sincerely held personal beliefs with no exception, or
3) It is a document with little meaning or utility.
So maybe, the questions are:
Which of the above is how you see the platform?
Unless you pick #2, while it may be appropriate for a group to select issues upon which to grade legislators, do you think it appropropriate for an anonymous group to claim to be the "judge and jury" on who is sufficiently Republican to carry an R behind their name?
If you pick #2, how do you explain or rationalize opposing certain planks and retain an R behind your name yet not allowing others to select planks to oppose in order to keep an R behind their name?
Contrary to Steve's assertion I wanted to gut it for a particular purpose, I subscribe to #1. Additionally, I think it is a document to attract voters who more generally agree with the document than the Democrat's platform, especially on the issues of greatest import to that voter. I don't expect to agree with every plank personally (and am willing to express when and where I disagree) despite broad general agreement. I don't expect another to agree either with my interpretation or what planks take precedence. If they more generally agree and are willing to express that general agreement by registering as a Republican, I consider them a Republican in good standing. And will extend to them flexibility to pick their own priorities within the platform.
When I vote in a primary I weigh the choices against my priorities and vote for the Republican I think will best execute on my priorities fully understanding nobody will perfectly represent my views. Then, when I vote in the general election, I do the process over again and nearly always vote for the Republican.
Personally, while I defend anyone's right to belong to or form other parties, I believe our system is best suited to two parties and few Independents or other parties. Multiple parties seems best suited for a Parliamentary form of government. And, thus the two parties will have divergent members (elected and voting) that have components/members that nearly touch the other.
"But my main interest is to get answers how a person who has been hawkish on the Republican Platform as more than a guide but a means to judge one’s “Republicanism†and chastise others who do not live up to his standards of adherence justifies violating at least five planks of the platform (a standard he was in the past not tolerating in others)."
Troy I have addressed this point several times. So are you saying that the Republican Party is about state control of the economy? If so, then send out a memo to all party members who think the party is about a limited government.
Yoiu have completely failed to address the preamble and the fact that those 5 planks violate the preample of the platform. Are those 5 planks there to give you RINOs the validity to set up a state controlled crony capitalist system where the only way you can get anywhere as a Republican legislator is to vote for the governor's economic policies?
"Which of the above is how you see the platform?"
Why do we have to pick from your 3 restricted options?
"Either the entire Platform (Preamble and planks) is a general guide represented concensus positions of the broad party as approved by those who attend conventions open to diverse interpretation of meaning which planks take precedence when there appears to be a conflict"
So the "diverse interpretation of meaning" allows for the rejection of principles found in the preamble in favor of pragmatism where government is always the solution. Not suprised a RINO would pick support that idea.
"Contrary to Steve’s assertion I wanted to gut it for a particular purpose"
You just admitted you gutting it with the “diverse interpretation of meaning" BS.
"I believe our system is best suited to two parties and few Independents or other parties."
South Dakota has only one party. All the rest are small Independents. South Dakota has no need for Democrats since the Republicans are so willing to implement Obama's policies.
Troy, are you this Mr. Jones:
Prior to joining Orion Financial Corp. in 1993, Mr. Jones was the Director of Finance in the South Dakota Governor's Office of Economic Development (GOED ).
Steve,
If you don't like my option, tell me yours.
I'll just say these things. I think there is a role of state government in economic development and legitimate in our economy. I do not advocate control. I think our state has a great balance between what it does and doesn't do. Thus, I do not believe these planks conflict with the preamble but illuminate it. If we disagree, it is an honest disagreement.
So Steve, who gets to interpret the Platform for what it means? You? Me? Who? Do you want a "enforcement body"? Who picks them? What are their powers. Otherwise, you can respectfully people who honestly see things differently or disprespectfully.
I disagree our state or the Republican's support Obama policies, in whole or in part. Just to anticipate your exchange argument, I think the exchanges is the best part of Obamacare (although poorly designed currently) as they will be the means to transition from the anti-competitive restrictions on selling and buying health insurance across state lines.
@Troy Jones Without being snide, my point exactly. Your comments about the dairy were clearly bear bating. If you have serious questions, come on over. I will happily give you a detailed tour of the area and explain in great detail the NUMEROUS financial and social reasons it is overwhelmingly opposed here in Hanson County. I will give you the same information I provided Sec Walt Bones' office before he testified at last year's water board hearing claiming there was no problems with the dairy coming into Hanson County and that there was no opposition to it in the community.
I have offered you the olive branch on more than one occasion. I love a spirited debate. Heck, I loved a great sparring match when I was a boxer. Contrary to what you have erroneously presumed about me, I do not carry a grudge. That does not mean that I forget.
With all due respect, I simply do not have the time to engage in these long drawn out debates. Mainly, 3 blown out discs in the back scream for me to get away from the desk or feel their continuing ugly wrath and destruction.
I will provide you the answer which you already know, my positions is neither of what you numbered regarding the party platform. You and I are operating from two different vantage points. I am operating from the inside vantage point of knowing that many elected purported Republicans have admittedly never read the party platform nor admittedly have any concept of what traditional Republican principles are.
You are endowing me with positions that I have not taken. For whatever reason you have a serious animus for voters that compiled a report card reflecting their opinionated concerns of their Republican controlled legislature last year. I did not agree with everything on there; however, I do support their rights to be involved and to express their concerns and was proud I could help them get their respectful points out to the general public.
You are not so naive as to believe that just because someone throws on the (R) that everything they do is Republicanism. You appear to think that we should demonize and attack any that dare call voting records into question. I do not. I think it is very healthy for the voters to be so involved and that such concerns should be encouraged to be voiced.
The Republican Party is not Troy Jones or Stace Nelson, neither should either of us (or others) try to control those good folks that have a right to express their concerns about the direction the party appears to be being pushed. You blame me of passively doing so because of my support of those that put out the report cards all the while you are engaging in a frantic direct assault on any that dare question those in elected Republican positions in order to bully them away from their Constitutional and SDGOP rights.
Regardless of platform purity that YOU are stuck on, it is counterproductive to attack, attempt to alienate, and intimidate the very grass roots base of the SDGOP.
If you would like to press this conversation further, feel free to accept my offer to come see our beautiful county.
Steve,
Yes. I have never hid that I worked for the Governor's Office of Economic Development. I'm proud of the work of Governor Mickelson, our office, my division, and myself.
From the SD Republican platform:
"The South Dakota Republican Party recognizes the free enterprise system and the work ethic of our people as the foundation of our economic success and security.
The South Dakota Republican Party believes the 21st Century requires continued responsible leadership. Leadership must neither burden nor hinder individual rights and efforts. Leadership must also be mindful of the Republican Platform and the fundamental principles of the Constitution of the United States of America. We believe the most effective and responsible government is government closest to the people.
The South Dakota Republican Party believes the proper role of government is to provide for the people only those critical functions that cannot be performed by individuals or private organizations. The best government is that which governs least."
Clearly true Republicans would support the people of Hanson County regarding this foreign dairy and not support the Governor's Economic Development tyrants. Since when does economic development is a task that the people can't do for themselves? Are you the "Mr. Jones" Troy? If so, then your work in the governor's office violate the principles from the preample of the platform on three points:
1) Free enterprise does not mean the state picls winners and losers.
2) Copunty governemtn is closer to the people, not those in the Pierre Capitol
3) The people not the government's Office of Economic Development are to control a free enterprise system.
Stace,
I totally agree with this statement of yours: "Regardless of platform purity that YOU are stuck on, it is counterproductive to attack, attempt to alienate, and intimidate the very grass roots base of the SDGOP."
While slightly to the right of the average Republican, I'm quite comfortable I'm in the heart of the grass roots of the Republican Party.
Sorry about the typos, but it is clear that those 5 planks are in direct conflict with the principles laid out by the preamble. I argued to correct that conflict during the convention and the lobbyists refused to listen as they have a conflict of interest. The current system of state economic development is in conflict with the platform preamble and has become corrupt due to conflicts of interests including your own Troy. Time for the Republcian Party to come face to face with their fascist economic development policy and return to the conservative policy that supports a competitive enterpise economic system that is free from coercion and corruption. It is to time reject the central planning of the economy and allow the decisions to be delegated to the individual, not some committee within the Governor's Office of Economic Development.
@Troy Don't make me start typing chicken noises on my laptop. You have made loud statements in the past, now cowboy up and head West. I promise I wont let Sibby eat your lunch.
Obama had his beer summit, we can call this the "Joe's" summit.
omg: kissing noises. i'm gonna hurl....
"I’m quite comfortable I’m in the heart of the grass roots of the Republican Party."
Not while you were in the governor's office of economic development. And I very much doubt you are now as you support the monopolization (the anti-thesis to a competitve free maket) of Hanson County resources in the name of creating jobs. You are hardly one to believe in and support the grass roots creating their own jobs.
From the preamble:
"The South Dakota Republican Party believes the proper role of government is to provide for the people only those critical functions that cannot be performed by individuals or private organizations."
The planks regarding public/private partnerships are a direct violation of the preamble. Again that point was addressed during the last convention and the lobbyists just had to keep their private/public partnerships. Certaily a way to funnel taxes into the pockets of special interests and makes the role of a lobbyist that much more important.
Steve,
I have no conflict of interest. I haven't so much as called or spoken to anyone in GOED for at least 15 years at those were contacts with former colleagues who were friends (I've been gone for 19 years). Your innuendo is a blatant lie.
I went to work at GOED because I believed in Mickelson's vision and support Dauguard's vision. Nothing more or less.
And, like it or not, Mickelson's economic development agenda was roundly supported by nearly every Republican in the state. This is a fact.
Finally, you may have argued those planks were contrary to the preamble but your effort failed by a vote of those Republicans at the convention. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.
you know both them will be packing, troy: wear a big-ass gun.
@Troy It seems your wrath for anonymous attacks on sitting legislators only extends so far as when their actual voting records are called into question. Where is the outrage for the anonymous attacks on legislators at DWC? I just had an exchange with a legislator posting anonymously in which they admit there is a plot to try and illegally have me thrown out of the legislature this next session. Curious, have you engaged in any of this illegal conspiracy, Troy Jones?
As much as I wish all blogs required either using your name or at minimum a consistent psuedonym, it just isn't the "culture" of blogs and everyone who goes there knows it occurrs. So, on occassion, I say something. I have even recently told people to quit accusing you of items.
Sending robocalls or postcards to people's homes without "invitation" (as going to blog is a implied "invitation" to hear anonymous comments) is a step farther where I think knowledge of the accuser is necessary for me to even consider the charge. No name. Goes in the trash.
Anyway, just looked at what you claim is occurring.
1) If you know "anon" is a legislator, you know more than me. Otherwise, your statement it is a legislator is just speculation.
2) This person is referring to kicking you out of caucus and not the legislature. It is my understanding, the caucus has full discretion to admit or not admit anyone they choose for any reason or no reason at all. So there is nothing illegal being discussed, if it is.
3) I have no knowledge of any such discussion and since I don't know if "anon" is a legislator, that statement doesn't convince me the discussion is occurring.
P.S. It appears there is confusion. "Anon" used the word "made" which indicates he is talking about last year. You are talking about the present.
@Troy Careful, you might sprain something.
P.S. Argus called a couple minutes ago and are running a story. Probably was not a good time for me to give an interview..
gawd: what a drama queen.
"Finally, you may have argued those planks were contrary to the preamble but your effort failed by a vote of those Republicans at the convention."
No Troy, I honored Rhoden's committee process so it got filtered out by the RINO lobbyists, your fellow economic development through government crony capitalist communists, and was not voted on.
When are the SDGOP leadership going to be honest and admit they do not support conservative limited government principles?
"Just because you say it, doesn’t make it so."
No body has made an argument proving that private/public partnerships and government subsidizing business in the name of economic development are conservative limited governemnt principles. Your only argument is that the RINOs expect "diverse interpretations". Sounds like the far-left's moral relativism.
good thing the far left is only good as voices in the wilderness while the goddamned center ruins it by capitulating to earth haters like you and yer big buddy, sib.
Steve, I've made the pro-economic development argument many times. You just disagree.
And I have made the economic development through government is not a conservative limited government policy statement and because you are a true believer in economic development through government, you refuse to admit the truth. Your position is that the government is not to prevent corruption, it is to fund it.
Steve,
See, here is the rub. You think only you speak the truth, you only reason correctly, thus you think anyone who disagrees with you either doesn't reason or speaks untruth. I disagree with your reasoning and do not find what you believe true to be true.
Somebody call the vet, that dog don't hunt as it is clearly lame.
Mr. "H," Please note for posterity, and future reference, Mr. Jones' unusual response when asked if he is engaged in a conspiracy to illegally have me removed from the legislature. Confirms the bragging threats that have been passed on to me. Well, as Samantha said, who needs to worry about Obama when you have such fine RINOs in our party?!
Stace,
Let me be crystal clear. I know of no conspiracy to remove you from the legislature, have no had no conversations to this regard. If you read that into my answer, you are paranoid.
I found this photo to supplement the pissing contest. I think that's Sibby in the background taking pictures.
http://people.tribe.net/mosesis/photos/97c40669-f637-4778-a581-bb2ed5e054b4
No personal affront to anybody, that was just the funniest picture of a "pissing contest" I could find.
I found it a compliment as I am older and chubbier.
"I should be more like the rest of your elected officials and not sully my good name by making myself available on these forums. Or, just post semi-anonymously/anonymously and take cheap shots from the shadows."
Good name? That was funny. Thanks!
Troy's winning on points here so far.
First, Troy grants Stace the perfect out. Troy says Stace can completely justify his actions on the dairy as serving constituents. Troy admits he's not going to hang Stace for violating certain planks of the GOP platform; all Stace has to do is agree not to do the same to other Republicans who may be putting their constituents over platform purity.
But instead of accepting that easy and by no means ignominious compromise, Stace and Steve go into contortions to preserve their image of platform purity. Steve's retreat position to the platform preamble reduces the platform to absurdity. Steve declares that only the Preamble is infallible and that certain planks are illegitimate, but that position is no different from the claim that legislators targeted by Sibby's scorecards and Troy here is making: that you don't have to follow every plank of the platform to the letter to be a good Republican (or, more importantly, a good public servant). If a Republican can pick and choose planks, then a Republican can pick and choose clauses and interpretations of the Preamble.
Troy aptly summarizes Steve's absurd platform destruction with his three options: (1) either the platform is guidelines open to interpretation by legislators of good conscience, (2) the platform is a rigid document allowing no deviation (not Troy's or Stace's), or (3) the platform is meaningless. Steve, Stace, and the scorecards explicitly reject #1. They implicitly reject #2 with their own picking and choosing. They thus reduce themselves to #3 and lose a debate that they don't need to lose.
Stace Nelson does not need argue Republican platform Preamble or planks to come out smelling like roses on the Hanson County Dairy issue. I'm betting most of the people involved (Hanson County Commissioners, Michael Crinion, Rob Bender, the Iburgs, all the neighbors, the folks hoping for jobs) don't give a barn rat's patootie if the construction of this dairy affirms the GOP platform or any person's party cred. They just want this dairy built or not built.
The defeat for the dairy discussed here comes from one simple issue: Hanson County failed to follow its own zoning ordinances. Judge Bjorkman thus killed an improperly issued conditional use permit. That's not a party issue. Neither the judge nor the litigants viewed it as a party issue.
Stace's electoral fate doesn't matter to Hanson County nearly as much as whether this dairy is built or not. But if District 19 has more dairy opponents than proponents (just as it has more Republicans than Democrats), Stace's non-partisanly commendable work to stop the dairy will win him more votes than the abstract party purity argument he and Steve are making here.
Stace,
Alot of debates can switch with a great close. Don't tell me you gave up.
And, I won't even protest bias even though you have praised Cory for being fair and he agrees with you on this issue. C'mon, give me your best shot. If I am what you say I am, I'll fold like a cheap suit in the corner.
You can come back you big Russian bear. If anyone can it is you big guy. Don't let your fan down.
From my perspective, this whole Republican infighting is not doing the State of South Dakota and her people any good whatsoever.
So, why don't you Republicans all just step aside until you can figure out your childish debate and let the level headed Democrats who are a little more worried about "everyone" than you all seem to be.
Good luck with your petty power plays and when you are good and ready to put the people before petty politics...let us know and we'll let you back in the game.
Thanks, it's the least you guys could do. ; ^)
(OK, the petty politics standing in the way of good policy and governance was serious....God help us that the ruling party has the maturity of a 5th grade playground skirmish.)
Mr. Jones,
The last time you had your panties in such a knot jumping up and down in the blogs frothing at the mouth, the Argus ran a pretty good Sunday front page story about the big ugly fella from Hanson County. I salute your effort to buzz around attacking for your pet RINOs; however, you shouldn't take my distracted half-hearted swipes at your ignorance as a win when our host even points out the debate was won in the arena of the public forum before you even touched angry little finger to keyboard. To wit, front page Argus & Daily Republic paper articles this opposing inappropriate government efforts to assist foreign interests over that of South Dakota tax payers.
Please sweep the floors, pick up your participation trophy on the way out, turn the lights off on the way out, and lock the doors... Elvis left the building two days ago..
It could have been pithy but instead it has been frothy.
LOL