Last updated on 2014.02.18
I really don't want Marion Michael Rounds to win South Dakota's open Senate seat. He would legislate as he governed, absent of vision and sacrificing principles for the crony capitalism that does more daily practical harm to liberty and democracy than any of the bogeymen Rounds's friends and tools tell us to fear.
But I must also consider the possibility than any Republican who wins the primary election is the favorite to win the general against Democrat Rick Weiland. Most observers place South Dakota in the lean/safe GOP column, and even the poll Weiland buys has him behind, before any big GOP money has been spent. Weiland's a great campaigner (no other Republican has visited over 170 of South Dakota's 311 towns this year), and we Dems still have plenty of time to make our case, but it will be an uphill battle. I thus wonder: what happens if we lose? Which Republican would be the least bad Senator?
Salesman-sleazy as he is, Marion Michael Rounds is the only pragmatic, hintingly sane Republican in the race. He says he would have voted, like Senator Tim Johnson and Senator John Thune, to end the government shutdown and raise the debt ceiling:
Rounds said he would have “very reluctantly” voted for the measure if he were in Congress. Republicans, he said, should have ended the government shutdown once they realized they didn’t have enough votes to defund the Affordable Care Act.
...“Today, they had no choice,” Rounds said. “They had to fix the issue on the debt crisis, one way or another, or at least give themselves a chance to find some reasonable individuals there who will sit down and begin the process of reducing the federal deficit meaningfully” [David Montgomery, "Rounds Backs Shutdown Deal; GOP Blasts It," Political Smokeout, 2013.10.17].
Rounds's opponents, as Toby explained Wednesday, all support the kamikaze politics of Senator Ted Cruz and Rep. Kristi Noem. State Sen. Larry Rhoden, State Rep. Stace Nelson, and Annette Bosworth all say they would have voted against Wednesday's deal, left the federal government crippled, and plunged a defaulting America into a global economic meltdown... all for the sake of making a futile political stand.
I've complimented Rounds's pragmatism before. That pragmatism keeps him from signing silly pledges like Grover Norquist's no-new-taxes pledge. (And, again as Toby noted, even Norquist prefers Rounds's pragmatism to Cruz's/Noem's/Rhoden's/Nelson's/Bosworth's suicidal ACA obsession.) That pragmatism would have kept Rounds from casting what could have been the most destructive vote of the 113th Congress... a vote every Republican challenging him would have cast.
There are many reasons I could encourage my Republican friends to nominate someone other than Marion Michael Rounds. The uninspiring Larry Rhoden would be easier for Rick Weiland to beat. Stace Nelson would provide much more exciting debates with Weiland. Annette Bosworth's spontaneous combustion would make for much easier blogging.
But if Rick Weiland gets a record deal and moves to Nashville, Marion Michael Rounds is the safest, sanest choice for Senate.
Mike Rounds is the career politican that is riding the wave at the moment. He reminds me of Daschle - suave, slick, apple-polisher. Bless his heart, he's so nice, I just forget about those outrageously over-priced insurance premiums that his company grabs from my pocketbook each month.
Being removed from the DC mess through the campaign is another reason Rounds will be hard for a Democrat to defeat.
Noem on the other hand is going to have her hands full with a single digit race if her opponent turns out to be decent.
The situation is not as cut and dried as what has been implied by the media. According to the media, if one adhered to supporting a government funding bill that did NOT include funding for Obamacare, then one supported shutting our government down.
Congress is supposed to act as a checks and balances on the opposing chamber, the executive branch, and the judiciary. The House did its job, it sent a bill to fully fund our government without funding Obamacare. That was their prerogative and right to do so. That debate, and fight by the Democrats, should have been held separate.
The omnibus bill has been shown to be the vehicle that is causing so much of our spending problems both nationally, and here in SD (HB-1234?).
According to the logic expressed, if our legislators vote against our SD appropriations bills (A) because they wanted more spending; or, (B) because they wanted less spending We are voting to shut our government down? Of course not! Neither were those legislators who voted to fully fund our government sans Obamacare.
The debates on funding our government should not be held on the eve of our country defaulting. This recent mess was a failure of leadership ALL THE WAY AROUND. Instead of now addressing these issues, Congress has postponed the issue AGAIN for the eve of the next shutdown, instead of attending to it now before politics allow it to be pushed to the brink for yet another political gamesmanship crisis.
I do NOT support these politicians shutting our government down. There was no excuse for them doing so. Everyone of us should want the clowns that forced this to occur, that went on to go out of their way to make the shutdown painful to the American people, thrown out of office.
I fault GOP leadership for continuing to allow these debates to occur on the eve of disaster, when they should be locked in session right now looking for ways to make cuts and rein in the out of control spending & debt accumulation that they have pushed off AGAIN for a couple more months. I fault Democratic leadership for shutting the government down, they should have passed the funding bills sans Obamacare and held the debate on that issue separately instead of what occurred.
The GOP is toast.
Republicans complained for years how the federal government was run solely by Democrats...one party rule they called it. South Dakota's one party rule for what seems like forever has left this state in a very sorry place....the more radical the idea, the more it thrilled the Republicans to control the people. Rounds legacy as governor, IMHO, is zero. Zero on human rights. Zero on environment. Zero on economy. Zero on jobs and wages. Zero on intrusive government. Zero on small government....claimed by Republicans to be their goal. Mike Rounds is the mark of Zero. (my apologies to Zorro)
Stace it came down to the Republicans wanting to defund the law of the land and that's the ACA. The Republicans, not the Democrats, held the country hostage because they want to take away insurance away from millions (including me).
This false equivalency is wrong.
I agree with you that the debates for funding our government on the eve of shutting down the government. But again, that's the Republicans-specifically the Tea Party-that were trying to do this.
If the Republicans want to make changes to the ACA then do it the way you're supposed to. Elect people that will make the changes. But that's not going to happen because the ACA is and will be popular.
Kristi Noem is trying to have it both ways. She claims she's glad that the government was reopened and the debt-ceiling was raised and then she voted to keep the government shut down and to send our country into a economic downward spiral. She and the Tea Party has a lot to answer for.
Well put, Owen.
Black is white, war is peace, Rep. Nelson. I'm not buying it. If you want to repeal a law, you put that repeal up for a vote. If you don't have the votes, tough shiskey. When the time comes to pay the bills for the laws and policies we've implemented, you don't get to vote for default. You also don't get to hold us hostage with that risk.
I don't even like the riders that got attached to the debt-ceiling measure (or was the debt-ceiling measure attached as a rider to the ACA amendment?). Give me a pure debt-ceiling vote. No monkeyshines about specific programs or future budgets or anything like that. Do we pay our bills, yes or no? Give the markets our ironclad U.S.A. guarantee, then move on to partisan politics.
@Owen The law of the land is the US Constitution, not Obamacare. It is a program, Congress has the authority to repeal it, amend it, and NOT fund it. Claiming 'Republicans" want to take away YOUR insurance, utter Nonsense! The terrible TEA party is to blame? Are you kidding? Who is the Tea Party, Owen? Show their national platform, their voter registration numbers. If the Democrats wanted to pass a program that was acceptable to the nation, they should have sought consensus, not pass a bill they had not read by bending the rules and procedures of Congress. The Democratic failures in SD is not because of hard left stances by your national elected officials, it's all because of the amalgamous "TEA Party."
@Mr "H," where was that reasoning and logic when they passed Obamacare so duplicitously? So, you are saying that when I voted against the appropriations bills these last two years because of TOO MUCH spending, and my Democratic colleagues voted against it because they wanted MORE spending, we were actually voting to shut SD's government down?! No! and neither were the legislators that did NOT include Obamacare in the recent funding bill.
P.S. and according to your logic, South Dakotans should have accepted the enactment and full implementation of the infamous HB-1234, without a word, because it was "the law of the land."
No-bid federal contracts for Halliburton, et al. paid your wages, Stace: why should anyone expect you not to defend doctors and hospitals to be denied theirs under Medicare or Tricare?
Stace hit on something above. In South Dakota and other states with the initiative and referendum the people can have the final say on controversial issues. Usually, when the people speak through the ballot box, it is at least grudgingly accepted by all, whether it is who we choose for President or Governor, or how we vote on issues.
I'm just wondering if it might not be time to institute an I&R process at the federal level. Our elected officials aren't doing the job, or, if they do, there is endless carping and efforts to sabotage.
I think Obamacare would survive a vote of the public, and I suspect much of the anti-abortion legislation would not, but maybe it's time to have some sort of public plebiscite on some of these hot button issues.
Stace and his ilk would be having a cow if Jared Polis held up raising the debt ceiling with cannabis rights legislation.
"Owen The law of the land is the US Constitution, not Obamacare. It is a program, Congress has the authority to repeal it, amend it, and NOT fund it. Claiming 'Republicans" want to take away YOUR insurance, utter Nonsense! The terrible TEA party is to blame? Are you kidding? Who is the Tea Party, Owen? "
@Stace. Yes the Congress has the authority to change or repeal healthcare, that's what I said. But to shut down the government and not raise the debt limit to extort the President to defund or delay the ACA is wrong-and that's being nice.
The Republicans ARE trying to take insurance from me and others like me. At first they wanted to defund the ACA and then delay it. How do you think people are going to feel when, in some cases for the first time, they have affordable insurance for the first time?
Who is the Tea Party? Ted Cruz who's only goal is to promote Ted Cruz. People that can't stand that the President has a program that'll work. For heavens sake Stace the ACA is a conservative idea and implemented by Mitt Romney.
As far as HB1234 that was done the proper way. Yes it was going to become law but detractors got enough signatures and put it on the ballot. Then the people of South Dakota voted it down. It was done the way it should have been down,
Sorry Stace but it's the Republican Party and ONLY the Republican Party to blame here.
I am assuming you are upright law abiding citizen.
What part of Obamacare being a law do you not understand?
@Owen I have witnessed NO one standing in the streets of Alexandria, bearing arms, keeping you from going to any one of dozens of insurance salesmen for you to purchase health insurance. Likewise, I saw no one preventing you from joining me in the Marines, nor NCIS, where I earned my retirement benefits. Those opportunities were equally available to all who would avail themselves of the dangers and rewards of such service. Who shut the government down, Owen? the House sent a bill to fund the government, except Obamacare. That was legal and proper under their authority. Harry Reid & President Obama refused to allow that to come to a vote, and intentionally shut the government down. The rates that I pay for my insurance, have gone up. Obamacare is being proven as being ANYTHING but affordable. You have had the opportunity, your whole life, for insurance coverage, just like I did. Claiming I kept you from pursuing that, or anyone else, betrays the truth.
@Roger Slavery was the law of the land, I think we can all agree that Republican opposition to that was legitimate and appropriate. Opposition to Obamacare may not be as literal a cause as that; however, supporting Americans' freedom from government requiring them to work to pay for this program that 54% do NOT want, is still a worthy cause.
@Stace. I was turned down twice for insurance. I could have gotten on my wife's plan but it would have cost as an EXTRA $1100 a month over and above what Lori pays. yes I could get insurance but after being laid off I couldn't afford it. And that's the problem Stace more and more people can't afford insurance or because of preexisting they can't get insurance. So should people like me just not our medication or go to a doctor?
No Stace doing what the Republicans are doing is crap. Again change the law the way you're supposed to. Don't threaten the country because you can't get what you want.
"the Constitution is the law of the land, not Obamacare".-Stace Nelson.
Is the Constitution a law or the mechanism not just to protect rights, but the mechanism to pass and enact laws?
I believe when you take the oath of office for Senator, should you be successful, you will not only be asked to swear to uphold the Constitution, you will asked to swear to uphold its laws.
Yes the Republicans fought to abolish slavery and a Republican President emancipated the slaves, we know the history or the myth and it was a worthy fight. Somewhere along the ride in their self-righteousness the wheels came off the Republican little red wagon. They are now the attackers of Civil Rights, Voting Rights, Affirmative Action and have turned the War on Poverty to the War on the Sick and Poor.
These may not be what Stace Nelson stands for, but they are the national perception of the Republican Party.
I somewhat respect your right to repeal Obamacare, but in all seriousness, have to ask how much more time and expense are you going to devout to this fight.
Are you considering that President Obama was elected twice in part because of the Affordable Care Act?
Romney and Ryan ran their 2012 campaign on "Repeal Obamacare" and lost.
The tea party has spent the last 4 years trying to repeal it in the House and Senate, again there was time and expense, and after 41+ to repeal it, it failed.
The recent shutdown and threats to put on our country in default was supposedly because of Obamacare. They lost again with exception of the bone being tossed to them to require poor people to provide more documentation on their income.
I'm somewhat noted to be direct, I can't help myself, so I'll ask you directly.
How much of your time, energy, and government money will you spend to either repeal or defund Obamacare?
Do you have an alternative plan to the Affordable Care Act or expect the government to continually add to the debt by paying health cost for the uninsured. Or should the sick and dying be left to their own devices?
@Owen You have made the decisions in your career in life, no one else. Healthcare decisions do not start at 50+. I made sacrifices from the age of 18 to make sure my family was covered by insurance. The first decision was to leave an easy job and work at Iowa Pork in Mitchell, when I was 18, to ensure I had some health insurance for the daughter I was expecting. Then I paid the price for over 23 1/2 years to ensure that my family was insured. Those same sacrifices and rewards were available to each and every American.
Blaming the minority Republicans, or the amalgamous "TEA Party," for every problem in America, is simply ridiculous.
"Don't threaten the country because you can't get what you want." Really? How about don't shut the government down because you cant get Obamacare funded? The idea that our legislators have to vote against their conscious and fund Obamacare or that they are responsible for shutting our government down, is ignorant of the process, and disrespectful of the way our government is supposed to work.
The facts are, Harry Reid, and the Democrats in the senate made a conscious decision to NOT approve a funding bill that would fund our government in order to hold the country hostage over Obamacare.
@Roger The more the government has gotten involved in deciding medical issues, the more costs have sky rocketed. Putting the cost-payer of those costs, as the taxpayers, is just what big businessmen like Mike Rounds wanted. More government involvement is the problem, not the answer. You must eat and drink water to survive; however, you cannot go into Arbys, eat your fill, and say the public will pay for it. It is a complex problem that requires numerous corrections to get healthcare back to where it was affordable as it once was. How did my great-grandparents ever make it as pioneers in SD without government nanny taking care of them? First step though, get the government OUT of healthcare.
Curious which audience Stace is trying to convince.
@Stace I choose to work at Verifications which did pay part of my health insurance. Now you tell me how it was my choice that Verifications sent my job to India? I went to work at Verifications thinking I was going to be there for the long haul.
I sacrificed my college career because Lori was closer to finishing her college career. I worked the grave yard shift at a grocery story so we could have insurance, not only for us but our newborn son.
So your not the only one that makes sacrifices to provide. So people should join the Marines or other branches of the service to get health insurance?
So now I'm ignorant? Let me put it this way Stace. Lets say things were reversed and it was the Democrats did what the Republicans did. That's ok? Every time the Democrats disagree with what has passed into law they'd threated to shut down the government? You call that effective government?
Try and spin it all you want Stace the Tea Party Republicans blew it.
Stace certainly has every reason to fear God after his own choices.
@Owen you are entitled to your opinions, not the facts. Democrats control the White House and the Senate. They intended on shutting the government down. Doubt me? Explain then how all those department personalized shut down signs occurred all over the country, when the government was shut down and unable to contract for them to be made and put out? Was that an essential service? Such things take weeks-months to get normally.
You want to see the "Tea Party" and "Republicans" as the problem, so therefore they are. The world has tried the ideal liberal form of government, and it has failed every time. This country was built on conservative type principles, and was the envy of the world, till socialism took over.. and now our country is sliding into the same place.
I cannot believe you actually believe that by voting against funding Obamacare, and sending a bill to the senate that funded our government (except Obamacare) that you seriously believe that such an action was in fact an action to shut the government down. Has partisan politics consumed you to that extent? Where the truth, Harry Reid and President Obama refused to pass the bill absent funding for Obamacare, is what shut our government down.
Well, I guess when I voted against the last two SD general appropriations bills because of the increased spending in them, and my Democratic colleagues voted against them because not enough spending, we were actually voting to shut SD's government down.. Your assertions that the House Republicans who vote and passed a funding bill to fund all of our government (except Obamacare), actually voted to shut the government down by that action, is what? Astute?
"There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army." --Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:323
The only declared wars currently are on drugs and on terror:
"There shall be no standing army but in time of actual war." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. Papers 1:363
When your squatter ancestors arrived in South Dakota my Lakota Grandmother and ancestors were here to greet them. They too would share your sentiment of get the government out of here.
Your ancestors and descendants likely suffered many incurable health problems and died early and painful deaths because healthcare had not evolved to the miracle it is today.
Tea party bumper stickers and slogans usually sound somewhat sincere and most people would agree with them somewhat. However, they are nothing more than lip service. It is is easy to say "get the government out of healthcare" while at the same time looking away when you know you or yours are receiving Medicaid or Medicare or other forms of government insurance.
You may feel in your heart that is the right thing to do to repeal Obamacare, given your position on the governments involvement in healthcare, I certainly hope you are consistent and true to your heart and repeal Medicare and other socialist forms of healthcare.
I look forward to your answers, not just on this comment, but my comments and questions above.
There is one thing I do know, You Can't Repeal Reality, as much as may want to.
The RWNJs have turned on don Juan Thune:
If we go back far enough, we've all been squatted upon as nations or tribes. I imagine walking over the once powerful Arikara, Mandan, and Hidatsa wasn't so tough once the pox took them out.
I agree, Tea Party slogans worked to organize and not all is right or just and not all is wrong with their statements. It is the mix all organizers use to gather the sheep. Isn't that what Obama has done all his life as a professional organizer?
I agree we need changes to the insurance industry/med care costs/tort etc. We end up throwing a whole bunch of the babies out with the bathwater in this situation as many will self insure or no insure that are now carrying the burden of insurance premiums.
You can't repeal reality and the reality is, you can only spend beyond what you take in for a limited period of time and you can only tax the rich so much before they add it to the products they sell us and we just inherit more taxes.
Bob Ellis: "So you think. If most people knew what a liberal sellout Rounds is, I believe you'd find a much different picture than the one you desperately hope for."
I have to say I'm very disappointed in the changes I'm hearing in Mr. Nelson. A similar thing happened to Sen. McCain when he ran for president. Integrity gave way to political expedience in service to winning a higher office.
Republicans were victims of Democratic excesses. The Teabaggers are essentially powerless, or even nonexistent, etc.
I'm sure my comment will not meet with Mr. Nelson's approval and I'm guessing he might insist that I provide specific, verifiable proof of my opinions and feelings. I'm sorry Mr. Nelson, but I'm not going to do that. Against claims that black is white and up is down, there really isn't much that can be said. Disparage or ignore me; it's mostly irrelevant. Absurd claims and equally absurd counterclaims abound in politics, especially when one follows outlets like Faux News or War College.
What happened to Stace?
Stace, the NYT article I discussed earlier this week shows that the Affordable Care Act is providing better care and driving rather market-based solutions that are helping hospitals reduce costs.
The comparison to your votes against the South Dakota budget is faulty. I do not accuse you of shutting down the South Dakota government, because budget votes in March do not have that effect, since our fiscal year starts on July 1. You would only be guilty of that charge if your budget recalcitrance somehow forced the Legislature into a special session that lasted through June 30, and if negotiations were at such loggerheads that the Legislature had to consider a continuing resolution to supply stopgap funding until the Legislature could agree on a comprehensive spending bill, and if you gathered a Mugwump majority to stop that CR.
But remember, this is bigger than the simple spending debate. This is also about default, about refusing to pay for the things we've already bought. Paying our debts should not be a negotiable or conditional item. I don't say to my wife, "I'll send the mortgage payment, but only if you agree to make pot roast tonight."
Deb makes a reasonable point: it is hard to respond to claims that black is white. I don't like to give up on rational discourse, but against absurd rhetoric, the best response may be to turn to the voters, organize like crazy, and win the next election against those who make such claims.
...which takes me to a side not to Les: organizing should not be about herding sheep. Real organizing, healthy organizing, empowers people to fight their own battles. Obama did this. Dakota Rural Action does this, helping people learn about issues, advocate effectively, and participate in hearings and other government processes. I think even Stace may be doing this to some extent, sending out car magnets and campaign sign templates but helping regular folks act on their own motivation to campaign for him. "Organizing" isn't a bad thing; it's actually pretty democratic and, dare I say, American.
Just when did "community organizer" become a four letter word?
Nothing wrong with being an organizer as long as its the white dog inya that's being fed the most.
"""""What happened to Stace?""""""" He prob didn't like the same treatment the back slappers here gave their Blue Dog before they destroyed her politically in SD. Someday you Dinos will wake up to the fact that winning is not about destroying.
Go tell it to Pat, Les.
@stace nelson cracks me up man. A funny feller for sure and not to serious for a Model T Party kind of person. He floated this out there for us all to see and I cut and pasted it.
"Well, I guess when I voted against the last two SD general appropriations bills because of the increased spending in them, and my Democratic colleagues voted against them because not enough spending, we were actually voting to shut SD's government down"
At first blush, the reader may be tempted to think that we here in South Dakota are kind of equal in our representation in Pierre with 70 representatives. Here is what Nelson does not say, there are 17 of his Democratic colleagues. I may not be able to cipher very well, but I can use my fingers and take my shoes off and find I have leftovers. So if all 17 formed and wanted more appropriations, then they would have to convince at least 19 Republicans, including Nelson, to be of the same mind. Like everything else Nelson says, it is pointless, no matter how many caps he applies.
I don't go there Lar. As much distaste as I have for some of what goes on here, its not the paid 5th grade bullies shooting their mouth off here, though at times I wonder.
So, your visits to Madville are for our benefit, Les? How is Cory not a community organizer, or Pat, for that matter?
I understand your comment about 5th grade bullies, I comment regularly on the mostly irrelevant Rapid City Journal editorials and am usually the sole defender of Democrats. They only post about half of what I comment on.
Most are bullies, I do't run away from bullies.
My "where is Stace" comment is about him not answering some direct questions I asked him about healthcare. If he choose not to answer I understand, it is most likely the tea party has answered for him.
Folks, I was busy and have not been near a computer to be able to respond. I come here to be available and engage in sincere discussion on the issues. You want a respectful answer, ask your questions respectfully without the juvenile insults.
@Roger I answered you. You may not like the answer of getting the government out of healthcare, but that is the historic answer that kept healthcare costs low and America's healthcare the best in the world for almost 200 years. That, Tort reforms, and other measures to enable the free market, are the answer. It will be my last reply to you if you insist on the insulting comments.
@Stace. read this link Stace. It blows your argument out of the water.
CAH: maybe it's time for a poll showing Stace how many in this audience are actually registered to vote for him.
@Owen On the contrary, he concedes several of the points that Sowell made, that I pointed out. He tries to justify the Democrats shutting the government down via his argument; however, he concedes that it was in fact the Democrats who did just that by refusing to pass the funding bill that was sent them. Twisting the logic does not make it sound..
You also ignore the other evidence that the Democrats planned this shutdown. Please explain how all those departmental personalized shutdown signs they put up so quickly, were obtained so quickly with a government that was shutdown AND why they went out of their way to shut down things that did not require being shut down (websites, monuments, etc) but left things up like Michelle Obama's site.
Funny stuff, good head fake and remarkable agility on the feet Mr. Nelson, but you missed the lay up badly. Your side lost and so did America. I would say that shame is in order, but that part of real life has left your party a long time ago. While you all were destroying public property at monuments, women and children were going hungry, how can you possibly support that?
I'd guess that the barricades and signs they already had in case for some reason and they'd have it ready. Seems reasonable to me. The website I don't know Stace. I'd have to check.
But no conspiracy here.
Stace is the consummate professional politician: Pierre is clearly too small for him.
Again it was the REPUBLICANS that shut down the government. If the parks, memorials and websites were shut down it was there fault
Now that I understand your propensity for government involvement in healthcare and your failure to answer some direct questions, I'm compelled to make some assumptions, something I hate to do.
Republicans generally regard Medicare as an expensive socialist program, I assume you will attempt to repeal or defund Medicare.
I would also assume that you will continue efforts to repeal or defund Obamacare and that you will use your time energy and taxpayer money to accomplish your goals.
And, apparently you do not believe in or have an alternative to the Affordable Care Act.
Please correct me where I'm wrong and why I'm wrong.
Lynn Westmoreland, Mike Pence and many others publicly declared that their intent was to shutter the government if and when elected. Your argument suffers reality Mr. Nelson, just own it like we all know you do. Here is ole Lynn himself, what a guy, eh?
Of course, not to be outdone, here is the silver fox himself, six Pence from hoosierville http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81kQ9IpwegQ
There are more. These are not just anomalies, they are your fellow co-conspirators to destroy the Constitution that you and I took an oath to defend.
The Republicans were not guilty of the shutdown, but were responsible for it.
Stace, you mention the signs announcing the shutdown. I just think it was under appreciated government workers of all party stripes that planned ahead enough to realize that the GOP ran on shutting down the government in 2012.
Doubtful. Or maybe it was the fact that overnight printers could be used without a long procurement process.
Here's a quiz Stace...name 3 GOP members that you align with ran on shutting down the government?
Oh the heck with that.
Stace, you are a Marine and a man of honor. Guessing you would never make those types of accusations on the signs without proof beforehand. I would hope a man of honor and a Marine would not resort to gutter politics.
(Rounds was never in the Marines or military...was he? So that explains his behavior.)
Rounds was never in the military. He pretends that he was though and enjoys the accolades in many settings, but he was just way to busy to take the plunge.
Shutting the government down was a failure of BOTH parties, and of leadership within BOTH those parties. I do not support shutting the government down, I do support Democrats & Republicans voting their conscious on each and every bill. I support funding our government, department by department, program by program, with an eye for cutting and reining in our federal government and the out of control debt accumulation.
@Owen it would have taken weeks-months for contracting and purchasing such signage. Impossible to do when a government shuts down. Regardless, there was a concerted effort to shut things down like Mt Rushmore (traffic cones so people couldn't stop on a public highway, etc) to make it even harder on people, that clearly came from the Obama administration,
@Jerry my side is the people I serve, I don't serve party leadership. You are correct though, my side, the American people, lost. Your comments are the type of unnecessary vitriol that drags legitimate conversations away from productive solutions.
@Roger You understand wrong. What part of get the government out of healthcare is not understandable or not the solution? My solution is to return to what works, and what worked for almost 2 hundred years, the free market. I remain opposed to Obamacare.
@Jana Having worked in the government for 23 1/2 years, I can assure you that is not how it works. Making an observation of what factually occurred is now gutter politics? My opponents believe citing their records is negative also, kind of an admission that their records are bad.
Like I said on another blog here on Madville, when twist the teapublican hard enough they start to say it was both parties fault for the shutdown. Anybody else notice that with Stace going from it was the Democrats fault to both parties fault.
Stace still hasn't answered my specific questions on Medicare, except to say he is opposed to ACA.
When Stace returns healthcare to the free market, will the medical industry, doctors, lawyers, and lobbyist that are dependent on government welfare be receptive?
Will Stace Nelson follow his heart and vote his "conscience" and dismantle Medicaid, it is a legitimate question that deserves an answer?
If Congress would've passed a budget on time, there would not have been a shutdown. We should be ashamed of all of them.
No more false equivalence Stace.
So are you telling me that the most powerful country in the world cannot get signs printed overnight? Please.
Here's the sign conspiracy.
In 1995 after the Clinton government shutdown, Obama knew that he was going to President one day and that the tea party was going to shutdown the government, Obama called Clinton and asked him to keep the "closed" signs for 2013.
There you have it, ironclad innuendo.
""""So, your visits to Madville are for our benefit, Les? How is Cory not a community organizer, or Pat, for that matter?"""" You would know much better than I what my visits accomplish here Lar! Quote my statement of disdain for an organizer.
As for real debate, how can you debate this?"""""""""""""Funny stuff, good head fake and remarkable agility on the feet Mr. Nelson, but you missed the lay up badly. Your side lost and so did America. I would say that shame is in order, but that part of real life has left your party a long time ago. While you all were destroying public property at monuments, women and children were going hungry, how can you possibly support that?"""""""""""" And here I thought it was the Occupy Movement doing this and now I find out it was the Repub Party. Darned if you don't learn something every day.
There is no more socialistic an institution than military. It is a government business that converts major industries and segments of economy into tools of the generals. In that it edges toward corporatism of a fascist kind.
The desperation of the right in justifying their destructive behavior is classically illustrated by Stace pretending that signage was a major conspiracy indicating Democratic Party and Obama aiding and abetting the TEA Party.
How many times has the US House voted to end the Affordable Care Act and shut down a major part of cost control of health care? 41 times? That was political theater of a very damaging kind. Cruz and other lunatics theater of the politically absurd was damaging to US reputation and power...which reputation and power I would assume is a flag Stace might wave and vow fidelity forever.
Democrats, including Johnson, Herseth, and Daschle have failed to make the case for the need of a strong federal government. That and the spineless nature of many other Democrats has allowed the wingnut right to fill the air and the airheads with their mythology nearly completely separated from reality.
In that sense, Democrats have aided the GOP downward spiral into partisan insanity.
"What part of get the government out of healthcare is not understandable or not the solution? My solution is to return to what works, and what worked for almost 2 hundred years, the free market. I remain opposed to Obamacare. "
So from this statement Stace you think that there is no problem? Fewer and fewer people are being able to get insurance. From either preexisting conditions or they can't afford it. More people are going to the emergency rooms which end up costing people with insurance more.
Les, we do the best we can for you so that you can learn something new each day, so you are very welcome.
"""""There is no more socialistic an institution than military. It is a government business that converts major industries and segments of economy into tools of the generals. In that it edges toward corporatism of a fascist kind.""""""""""" How about a tool of Generals that converts industry into economy and has for hundreds of years Doug?
""""""The desperation of the right in justifying their destructive behavior is classically illustrated by Stace""""""""Drone on Doug, drone on party to no destruction.
Say, Les, as far as I know, no one here is a "paid 5th grade bully." I'm certainly not paying any of my commenters. A few of them occasionally pay me by hitting the tip jar; that money doesn't buy any specific speech; it just helps pay for blog costs and gives me a little fiscal leeway to spend more time researching, writing, handling technical issues.
As for bullying and destroying, I have a hard time accepting the idea that Democrats somehow engage in a higher and more organizationally destructive amount of such activity than the Republicans, who wage all sorts of character attacks on Matt Varilek, Stephanie Herseth Sandlin, Brendan Johnson, and even me, yet continue to enjoy electoral success.
Les, are you trying to say that we Dems bullied SHS? That we were mean or unfair to her? How so? As I try to drag us back tio the original premise, are you suggesting that we Dems fail to embrace the very policy pragmatism that I am saying makes Rounds the safest Republican candidate?
For those that contend both parties were responsible for the government shutdown and further say there were no winners or losers, I offer you this:
"it was an incredible victory" Sen. Ted Cruz, 10/182013
""""" Dems bullied SHS"""""She didn't take Dem bullying, made some partisan votes(though maybe only politically motivated) and the result was both parties leaving Herseth by a small margin after she also marginalized both parties by not meeting with them. Blue Dog wasn't good enough for a party that is all or nothing as evidenced by our president both before and after ACA.
As for the local posters here, pay could be title 18, 19 or 25. Who knows what drives the minds of attack dogs who seldom provide more than a link with little substance and even less original thought.
Contrary to Roger thinking it is a new thing for me to point the blame at both parties, don't look at me and say I think one is worse than the other Cory, you've heard my DC attitude for more than a short time. The same force is driving both parties that has and will until voters take it back(sorry Rick, I needed it for a point).
One man does not make a party Roger. Bed time, we'll all see the world in a better light when the sun comes up.
No doubt that some Dems have bad tastes in their mouths for a Weiland in a race after Kevin shat on SHS instead of running against don Juan Thune: yes, Les, some redemption is underway.
Stephanie self-destructed on a pile of blue dog crap.
Where's Stace Nelson?
He still hasn't answered my question as to whether the socialist Medicare program should be abolished or not?
It has now been a month and the ACA is a shambles. Democrats are siding with Republicans to try to right some wrongs. All this could have been avoided if the promoters of the ACA took some time to do things right, but they were in a hurry. And it is kind of a blessing in disguise because now many people see the problems when you have a bloated bureaucracy trying to manage much of anything. Stace, you still make more sense than anyone else out there.
So Stace Nelson is saying that Dems,who control the WH and the Senate have to pass,without compromise,a funding bill that wingnuts in the House knew was DOA,or else wingnuts get to blame Dems for the T-Bag government shutdown. Capitulation is not compromise. Obama staked out his turf and wingnuts threw a hissy fit and shut down the government because mean old Obama didn't blink. You want to blame someone honestly, blame the T-baggers.
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