This is Debbie Martines. She died in 1994 when a man who had abused her for years came home drunk and killed her in front of her two children. Martines was pregnant when she died.
This is Joaquin Jack Ramos. He is in prison for killing Debbie Martines. He pled guilty to first-degree manslaughter and received a life sentence. He has a parole hearing today.
This is Marion Michael Rounds. He commuted Ramos's sentence at the end of his term as South Dakota governor, making Ramos eligible for parole. Rounds claims he was unaware of Debbie Martines's family's opposition to the change. (Rounds seems to have signed a lot of papers at the end of his term without being fully aware of their impact.) Rounds has since exerted his political influence to dissuade the Board of Pardons and Parole from setting Ramos free.
This is Annette Bosworth. After attacking this blog, Bosworth circulated a campaign ad citing this blog's coverage of the Martines-Ramos-Rounds story to take votes away from Mike Rounds in the GOP Senate primary. Rounds won 55.5% of the vote; Bosworth, 5.75%. Bosworth has said nothing about the Ramos commutation since then. Bosworth is in court today defending herself against felony perjury charges.
John Hult offers a reasonably thorough review of the facts and opposing opinions in the Martines-Ramos case. Among the details, Hult gets this summary of the events of that horrible night in 1994 from Ramos's prosecutor, now Pennington County state's attorney Mark Vargo:
On the night of Martines' killing, she'd left the children in their Rapid Valley home and gone with another taxi driver to look for him.
"The rule was that we couldn't have dinner, and it was getting late," said Martines' daughter, Jackie McLain.
Ramos returned, intoxicated, and became enraged.
"He was enraged, not just because she wasn't there, but because she was with another man," Vargo said.
When Martines returned, Ramos grabbed a gun to go after the man who'd given her a ride, McLain said. Martines tried to stop him, McLain said, and Ramos grabbed her by the hair and began hitting her with the gun. Investigators found tufts of hair in the house.
The gun went off, sending a bullet tearing through Martines' shoulder and through her abdomen [Jonathan Hult, "Man Who Killed Girlfriend in 1994 up for Second Parole Hearing," that Sioux Falls paper, 2014.07.14].
The gun went off. Notice the absence of agency in that wording. Ramos says he didn't mean to shoot. Vargo agrees, but...
Vargo wrote in 1994 that he didn't believe Ramos meant to fire the gun at the moment he did, but there was little doubt he wasn't concerned about Martines' life.
"He was pistol-whipping her with a loaded gun," Vargo said [Hult, 2014.07.14].
Ramos's family says Ramos is a different man. He's spoken to kids and government panels about his crime and domestic abuse.
Leland Steva at KELO seems to find Ramos's story more interesting that that of Martines's family. Steva refers to Ramos's spending "the last few decades" behind bars (1994 to 2014: that's two decades, not a few.) Steva spends a lot of time talking about how Ramos's estranged son loves his father. One son's love may make for gripping television, but I'm having trouble seeing how Ramos's good relationship with his son bears on the parole board's assessment of the gravity of his crime against someone else or the danger a killer presents if released. The trail court considered the issue of Ramos's capacity for good relationships in 1995:
The trial court considered Ramos' past relationships and determined that, "when they have been good, [they] have been very, very good. When they are bad, they are very, very bad."{fn3} The trial court called attention to the "danger side" of Ramos' personality which "surfaced ... when Debbie Jo Martines died."
The trial court noted Ramos' prior offenses have been misdemeanors. It stated, "When one looks at the nature of the offenses, however, they all have some degree of violence associated with them, Mr. Ramos, [96 SDO 244] violence largely centered around those individuals that you supposedly hold near and dear and, ... involve women." The trial court pointed out, "[t]he instances in which you lose control have become more frequent" [Justice Richard W. Sabers, South Dakota v. Ramos, 1996.04.03].
Twenty years is a long time. People can change. South Dakotans have received lesser sentences for killing. Folks convicted of first-degree manslaughter also received sentences as harsh as Ramos's.
Debbie Martines died twenty years, four months, and twenty-two days ago. Joaquin Jack Ramos has sat behind bars for causing her death for almost as long. Governor Mike Rounds, in a fit of inattention on his way out the door from the Capitol, turned the killing into a political football four years ago.
In the most generous world, where we take Ramos and his family at their word, a reformed Ramos lives with the personal, inescapable punishment imposed by conscience and memory. But is when is that enough of a price to pay for a crime? How many days and years of liberty must we exact from those who err, and specifically from those who end a life?
I don't have a clear answer. Evidently, neither did Mike Rounds when he signed the commutation papers in 2010.
It really proves what most of us have known for many years, Rounds was unfit to be the governor of this state and proved it beyond all means with this mess as well as many others. As he always claims to have had cases of not being able to comprehend his actions, why should voters send him to Washington where bigger decisions are made. As much as I hate to say this, Mike Rounds needs to stay right here in South Dakota screwing us out of premium dollars, better to keep him here than to let him metastasize any further.
Update: Parole board says no, Ramos remains in the pen.
This case has always bothered me, the first degree manslaughter charge should have been elevated to 2nd degree murder charge, when you consider that he not only murdered Ms. Martines, he killed her unborn child.
When Mike Rounds commuted Ramos' sentence he also sentenced the Martines family, they will never have any closure to began with, now they have to travel great distances every 8 months for a Ramos parole hearing, thanks to Mike Rounds.
I'm all for forgiveness and rehabilitation for those that have committed crimes against humanity. The Ramos case isn't one that warrants those considerations.
The Martines family obviously fears Ramos and the public should as well. His actions that night reveal that he cannot be trusted. He was drunk and attacked at pregnant woman saying the gun "accidentally went off".
If he is ever freed, what is stop him from putting himself in the same situation, a gun could "accidentally go off" again.
Rick Weiland needs to make Mike Rounds recklessness a core issue of his campaign.
Rick is a nice guy, I get that. This is going to be a hardball campaign and if Rick is going to stand a chance of winning the Martines, the Mette's, EB-5 and other scandal and high profile issues need to be pounded on, long and relentless.
You make a good point about Rounds's recklessness, Roger. I don't know how you go through two years of considering a commutation and don't find the victim's family to get their input. The reckless cost Rounds has imposed on the Martines family is relevant to evaluating Rounds's fitness for office. It makes for an ugly conversation, but it's one Rounds should be forced to have by a credible candidate like Rick Weiland.
I wonder what MMR was thinking? Did he have people on staff to investigate and make recommendations on these issues? Claiming ignorance or confusion doesn't help. It only makes him look less qualified.
Such ineptitude, coupled with a high level of corruption looks like a huge, flashing red stop light for a contender for the US Senate.
Did anyone else think of Willie Horton while reading this?
Willie Horton, indeed. The GOP pilloried Dukakis over that in 1988. But Mike Dukakis didn't also have a scandal as ugly as the mysterious Richard Benda death and the EB-5 scam bilking millions of public money. Mike Dukakis didn't gag public officials from blowing the whistle on graft. And Mike Dukakis never made a felon an honored South Dakotan for a day.
There are more skeletons in Rounds' closet, but they won't matter. His pals in Wall Street are buying our U.S. Senate seat.
If this is a Willie Horton, I'd hate to think that Cory is becoming a Lee Atwater... Maybe after reflecting on Newquist's assessment of SD politics, Cory decided, "if you can't beat them, join them?"
Maybe the comparison was unintentional, and I'm probably being unfair in dwelling on it. But in any case, let me encourage you to keep the high road, my friend. There is a worthy and honorable tradition of being the prophet, the gadfly, the civil disobedient. Be Mandela. Be Socrates. Be Nathan, Ghandi, More, Bonhoeffer, Snowden, King Jr, the Baptist, Pettigrew. Be the mirror who shows the cronies that they are cronies.
David,
Sorry to have to disagree with you, but this needs to be a campaign with Rick Weiland taking the gloves off.
Democrats have offered good candidates in past elections only to have them lose to bully Republicans they don't promote a platform, but rather push the pettiness their legions understand.
Integrity > Winning
Integrity is a wonderful thing, but I'd rather win. You can have both.
Rather win? Do you admire a winner like Nixon more than McGovern?
You can never have both when you sacrifice integrity. And the gambit can't even guarantee a win. How would it feel to lose both?
Outcomes are unpredictable. The only thing you can control is your integrity. And that will be your legacy.
They probably said: "it went off" because he was holding it by the barrel and clubbing her with his fist. There was no pulled trigger. It was a Jennings .25, the cheapest of cheap guns, prone to many kinds of failures.
I was working at that taxi company for a summer job while going to college. I was careful around him as he was an intense individual and drinking did not bring out the best in him. She was a nice gal who deserved better treatment than she got. People can change, but he did not accept responsibility at the time, so zero drinking with random checks for life and back to prison if he drinks or attacks a woman would have to be a minimum for release.
Joaquin J Ramos is my nephew and no one knows this case better than me.
There are a number of errors that appear on this blog that are not the fault of the blogger. After all, Madville Times is receiving its information from news sources who have reported on this story and have gotten a number of details so wrong I had to call them to make corrections, and this includes John Hult @ Argus Leader, Leland Steva @ KELO, KSFY, the Associated Press & others.
I should know, I met with them all. It was I who sought them out because on my nephew's first parole hearing not one news agency was present but they were all reporting, especially the Rapid City Journal who has written as many as 22 news stories on my nephew while having a lopsided and biased view of him.
Pennington County State Attorney Mark Vargo should be ashamed of himself for making statements that are wholly untrue. At the very least he should examine his notes from 1994 or Google the South Dakota Supreme Court page and revisit the case BEFORE he opens his mouth.
Debbie had called the taxi company to pick her up so she can get her fiancée, Joaquin Ramos, at the bar and bring him home. They passed each other on the street. Vargo says of what happened: "He was enraged, not just because she wasn't there, but because she was with another man," - suggesting they were having an affair - that man was Ramos' cousin. It was a man named Johnny Jibben that was causing trouble but because Ramos was under the influence of alcohol it distorted his perceptions between the dangers that were real and those that were not.
Joaquin Ramos DID NOT murder Debbie Jo Martines. It was an accidental and unintentional and unfortunate and a tragic killing. Read number [¶18] below.
In the Supreme Court of the State of South Dakota
STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA,
Plaintiff and Appellee,
v.
JOAQUIN JACK RAMOS,
Defendant and Appellant.
South Dakota Supreme Court
Appeal from the Seventh Judicial Circuit, Pennington County, SD
Honorable Jeff W. Davis, Judge
#19065 - Affirmed
Mark Barnett, Attorney General
Gary Campbell, Assistant Attorney General, Pierre, SD
Attorney for Plaintiff and Appellee.
Mark DeBoer, Public Defender, Rapid City, SD
Attorney for Defendant and Appellant.
Argued Nov 28, 1995; Opinion Filed Apr 3, 1996
SABERS, Justice
[¶1] Ramos appeals a life sentence for first degree manslaughter as unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment. We affirm.
FACTS
[¶2] On February 21, 1994, Ramos returned from a bar to the home he shared with his girlfriend, Debbie Martines, and her children. Debbie was not present when he arrived and after asking the children where she was, Ramos determined she had taken a cab to the bar. He called on a cab radio for the driver to bring her back. Ramos became violent while awaiting her return and threatened Johnny Jibben, the co-worker who had given him a ride home. Jibben's wife arrived, went into the house and took the two children outside. Ramos claims Jibben yelled at the children to get into the car, and Ramos went to the door and yelled at them to return.
[¶3] Ramos stated Jibben attacked him, but Jibben testified Ramos continued to threaten and swing at him. When Debbie arrived home Jibben was holding Ramos down on the floor. Debbie told Jibben she could handle the situation and asked him to let Ramos up. Ramos then slapped Debbie and threw a table. Jibben left the house and Debbie went out to bring the children back inside. Ramos went to get his gun. Debbie tried to stop him from going to the door and he grabbed her hair and hit her with the hand holding the gun. The gun discharged and Debbie was shot and killed.
[¶4] Ramos was charged with second degree murder or, alternatively, first degree manslaughter.
[¶5] Ramos pled guilty to first degree manslaughter pursuant to a plea agreement. There was no agreement as to the length of the sentence. Sentencing was continued to allow counsel to provide additional information and because of a misunderstanding regarding the plea agreement. The presentence report indicated the State recommended a life sentence. The Deputy State's Attorney explained that he intended to ***leave the decision of a sentence to the court, and that he did not specifically recommend a life sentence.***
[¶18] When discussing Ramos' principal offense, the trial court stated, ***"I understand that you aren't here as a murderer.*** You are [96 SDO 245] here for an offense of first degree manslaughter.
One week ago today Joaquin Ramos appeared for his second parole hearing and was yet again denied parole. I have no choice but to respect and accept the Board of Pardons and Paroles' decision but I am looking to the day when he will be granted his freedom based on the facts of the case rather than the emotional tsunami and past history that apparently is driving the decision-making process.
To all who respond with cruel and harsh remarks know that I forgive you because you do not know all of the facts.
To all who respond with sympathetic and understanding comments know that I truly appreciate your kind and understanding words. You see, Joaquin Ramos is my nephew and I am helping to defend him as any of you would help to defend your own relative.
South Dakota is one among two states in the nation that dish out sentences of 'life without parole' in first-degree manslaughter cases, the other is Oklahoma. This means that 48 states in the country sentence those convicted of first-degree manslaughter to between 4-40 years max.
Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I do! This is unfair, unjust and just plain wrong.
Below are a few cases on those who have been convicted of or who have plead guilty to first-degree manslaughter in South Dakota and not one of them received a life sentence except Joaquin Ramos.
1 - Rapid City Journal - A Rapid City woman, Heidi Waloke, 29, was convicted of first-degree manslaughter in the stabbing of her aunt, Jada Jeunesse, 38, on May 23, 2011 in Rapid City, South Dakota.
Sentence: 25 years. Judge suspended 5 years. She will have to serve 50% of the sentence. She will be out in 7 years.
=========
2 - Rapid City Journal - A Chamberlain man, Charles Birds Head, 30, was convicted of first-degree manslaughter in the shooting of Eustacio Maruffo, 33, on January 7, 2012 in Rapid City, South Dakota.
Sentence: 45 years. He will have to serve 65% of the sentence. He will be out in 29.25 years.
=========
3 - KSFY - A Sioux Falls man, Brent Michael O'Neal, 22, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter in a fatal, five-car accident of Philip Sorensen, 33, on July 25, 2012 in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
Sentence: 20 years. Judge suspended 11 years. He has to serve 9 years but will be eligible for parole in 4.5 years.
=========
4 - Rapid City Journal - A Colorado man, Edward Berges, 24, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter in the beating of his girlfriend's daughter, Evelyn Molnar, 2, on August 15, 2012 in Rapid City, South Dakota.
Sentence: 34 years. He will have to serve 50% of the sentence. He will be out in 17 years.
=========
5 - Rapid City Journal - A homeless Sioux Falls man, Clint Lawrence Cottonwood, 52, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter in the shovel beating of another homeless man, Robert Thunder Hawk, 45, on May 3, 2012 in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
Sentence: 70 years. Plea agreement. He will get out in 25 years.
=========
6 - Rapid City Journal - The late four-term Gov. Bill Janklow, 63, convicted of second-degree manslaughter in the automobile accident of motorcyclist Randolph E. Scott, 55, on August 16, 2003 in Trent, South Dakota.
Sentence: 100 DAYS!
=========
7 - Rapid City Journal - A Rapid City man, Robert L. Slee, 44, pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter in the shooting of his fiancée, Sylvia Rose Plumb, 36, on January 15, 1993 in Rapid City, South Dakota.
Deputy Pennington County State's Attorney Mark Vargo asked 7th Circuit Judge Merton Tice to impose a sentence of 15 years, citing Slee's remorse as the reason he didn't ask for a life sentence.
Tice sentenced Slee to serve 10 years in prison but suspended six years. One year later, in July 1994, Slee went before Tice to ask for a reduction in sentence, and Tice suspended the remaining three years, allowing Slee to go free.
Sentence: ONE YEAR!
=========
8 - Rapid City Journal - A Rapid City man, Joaquin Jack Ramos, 25, (my nephew) pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter in the shooting of his fiancée, Debbie Jo Martines, 27, on February 21, 1994 in Rapid Valley, South Dakota.
Sentence: LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE. Commuted by Gov. Mike Rounds in 2010 to 150 YEARS!
=========
A close look at any of the seven manslaughter cases have sentences not greater than 30 years. So why is my nephew the lone person with such a lengthy sentence, even after the commutation?
As if that weren't enough let's look at the parallels between Joaquin J Ramos and Robert L Slee, which are stunning and perplexing.
Both lived in Rapid City. Both shot and killed their fiancées. Both used guns. Both were under the influence of alcohol. Both pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter. Both were prosecuted by Pennington County Deputy State Attorney Mark Vargo.
However, there is a big difference between the cases: Robert L Slee shot and killed Sylvia R Plumb intentionally, according to a source close to the case. Joaquin J Ramos shot and killed Debbie J Martines accidentally, according to the South Dakota Supreme Court, the State's Pennington County Attorney Mark Vargo and 7th Circuit Judge Jeff Davis.
So why is there such a disparity in the sentences? I don't know.
I do know former Gov. Mike Rounds had the opportunity to make things right but fumbled by first granting commutation to my nephew and then attempting to rescind his order, which he could not.
I also know that Mike Rounds is running for the US Senate seat being vacated by Sen. Tim Johnson. It is obvious he does not want to appear soft on crime and needs to win in the November elections.
Indeed, it is a sad day in America when politics drives the American system of Law & Order.
My fervent hope is that the next parole hearing Joaquin Ramos attends will be a positive one.
If not then we will simply continue to go to the parole board hearings again and again until the day Joaquin J Ramos is finally released.
Mr. Cruz, I respect your willingness to speak out, especially in a forum like this where sometimes we forget we aren't just playing rhetorical baseball but dealing with real lives.
The other examples of crimes and sentences you give deserve our consideration.
Vargo wrote in 1994 that he didn't believe Ramos meant to fire the gun at the moment he did, but there was little doubt he wasn't concerned about Martines' life.
"He was pistol-whipping her with a loaded gun," Vargo said [Hult, 2014.07.14].
Mark Vargo is a LIAR!
Where does it state in the Supreme Court testimony that Ramos was pistol-whipping Debbie Martines with a loaded gun . . . where?
Shame on Mark Vargo for stating unsubstantiated claims.
[¶3] Ramos went to get his gun. Debbie tried to stop him from going to the door and he grabbed her hair and hit her with the hand holding the gun. The gun discharged and Debbie was shot and killed.
Mr. Heidelberger
I respect this blog's effort at shining a light on this story in a fair and balanced way and allowing me to post a perspective that until now had not been done before.
Thank you.
Roger Cornelius
This case has always bothered me, the first degree manslaughter charge should have been elevated to 2nd degree murder charge, when you consider that he not only murdered Ms. Martines, he killed her unborn child.
=======
Mr. Cornelius
Please read the SD Supreme Court testimony above.
My nephew did not murder Debbie. He plead guilty to first-degree manslaughter. It was accidental & unintentional.
He could not have been charged with the killing of the unborn child because of something called 'Legalized Abortion' in this country of which I am opposed to.
Mr. Heidelberger
I don't know how you go through two years of considering a commutation and don't find the victim's family to get their input.
=======
My nephew attempted to locate the family going back to the late 90's thru VORP (Victim Offender Reconciliation Program) and failed. The family did not care to be found.
I find myself in a conundrum in having to defend the former Gov. because Mike Rounds has done wrong to us, but the fact is that Mark Vargo and the State Attorney's office KNEW of the pending commutation too and yet did nothing to locate the family.
Jackie McLain lives in Keystone, not far from Rapid City. Ramos had to, by law, publicly place the commutation in the hometown newspaper (Rapid City Journal) where the crime occurred. He did so for SIX weeks! Why didn't anyone ever tell or show Jackie the commutation?
Many unanswered questions and a whole lot of blame to go around, not just to Rounds.
Although I don't care for Mike Rounds, I believe he is being unfairly attacked when others had a responsibility to do something too but did nothing.
"Where does it state in the Supreme Court testimony that Ramos was pistol-whipping Debbie Martines with a loaded gun . . . where?
Shame on Mark Vargo for stating unsubstantiated claims.
[¶3] Ramos went to get his gun. Debbie tried to stop him from going to the door and he grabbed her hair and hit her with the hand holding the gun. The gun discharged and Debbie was shot and killed."
I cannot for the life of me figure out how to hit someone with the same hand I'm using to hold a gun where the barrel of the weapon is pointed at the victim and not consider it to be pistol-whipping them.
As to it being loaded... considering he shot and killed her - it seems it was loaded. Even if it was an accident, he had a known history of abuse and the fact he was dragging a woman by her hair while beating her AND after getting his gun seems like sufficient justification to keep him in prison.
He committed his crime in 1994. Is 20 years enough punishment to make up for taking a life and abusing not only the woman he killed, but his ex-wife as well? Does it take into account the fetus that died as a result of his violence? Does it factor in the ramifications to the lives of Martines' children who saw their mother die in front of their very eyes, or the lifelong mental struggles they will suffer as a result of his rage and violence?
If it is true he is such a changed man, it seems he has done much better in prison than he ever did with his years of freedom. Perhaps that is more than enough justification to keep him right where he is.
I'm a big proponent of rehabilitation for non-violent offenders, but for violent crime such as this I am not convinced true rehabilitation is a possibility. I might be wrong, but I'd rather err on the side of caution.
You seem to be right on the mark Craig with what is pistol whipping and what is clubbing someone with the barrel of the gun. The gun discharged and the lady was killed in a very violent manner. I can read about the others and why they were given different sentences and would add that in some cases, maybe these other folks were not as inclined to violence as Ramos was.
Now, as far as Rounds goes. He must have read something to get himself involved with this in the first place. As he now cannot remember anything about it, that again tells me that he was unfit to be governor of our state and is not capable of being sent to Washington where other important decisions are made all the time. If he is so daft that this befuddled him, I damn sure do not want to see him when a situation involving Israel enters the picture. We have enough trigger happy republicans there and do not need another.
I am going to write this even though I know I will be, to put it mildly, crapped on.
I do not know all the details of this case, but whenever I read being drunk as an excuse, red flags come up.
Being drunk/intoxicated is never an acceptable excuse. Those who accept that as an acceptable excuse are enablers.
It is my firm belief that when people are drunk/intoxicated they say and do exactly what the mean. When someone is intoxicated and calls a supposed loved one, or anyone else a SOB, or worse, that is how that person really feels.
When an intoxicated person hits, or otherwise use violence against someone, the intoxicated person intends to hurt their victim.
I grew up in an alcoholic home and an alcoholic neighborhood. Most of the people when they became intoxicated they were mean drunks. They know that they are mean when intoxicated, but make the decision to become intoxicated anyway.
I wish Debbie would have ended the relationship the first time he abused her. Unfortunately, she did not, and now she is dead forevermore.
Any time, IMO, that an intoxicated person kills someone, whether in a vehicle crash, or with any type of weapon, that person has murdered someone (even though the court of law considers it manslaughter.)
A person with a violent history may do very well in prison because it is a controlled and to extent a structured environment, but who knows how the person will be upon release from prison and decide to become intoxicated again?
Why there are differences in similar cases is as varied as those who determine the sentences.
Unfortunately the Ramos/Martines case is repeated all too often. Man gets drunk and mad at woman, man beat woman, man "accidentally" kills woman. You hear this story often, too often.
It continues to follow a typical pattern of excuses, "it was even though he used a loaded weapon", "the gun went off"
"I didn't really beat her", and the inevitable, "I was drunk".
None of those bring the victim Debbie Martines or her unborn child back.
They are dead. They are dead because of a drunken irresponsible abuser that had a history of violence. There is no changing that.
If Rounds could not find Debbie's family, he had the responsibility not to grant a commutation.
In reviewing the cases cited by Cruz, there was not one that involved the death of an unborn child. Hopefully this factored into his original sentence and should be considered every time he comes up for parole.
The tragedy here is that Ramos gets to come up for parole every 8 months as I understand it, and put Debbie's family through more agony than anyone deserves.
Debbie's family has to travel great distances to oppose Ramos' parole, I hope they continue to make their argument to keep Ramos where he deserves to be.
I believe this man would be a danger to society if let out. I know a guy that served time for domestic abuse, drugs, theft, DWIs. He's fine for awhile and then life gets too hard and he's back on the drugs and hitting the girlfriend again. Jail is a revolving door for him.
I agree with what Jeni says. Blaming domestic violence by saying you had too much to drink is a cop out.
You can tell a lot by a person's eyes and this man's eyes scare me.
"I know a guy that served time for domestic abuse, drugs, theft, DWIs. He's fine for awhile and then life gets too hard and he's back on the drugs and hitting the girlfriend again. Jail is a revolving door for him."
Jenny, I have observed the same scenario. What I seen was as long as there was the presence of authority during the parole and/or probation period, the person behaved. Once that authority was lifted, the person went back to his old ways.
This is why I disagree with the drug court system. Only a very few make permanent adjustments. The humanists' approach is not effective in most cases.
There is one authority that if one accepts, does not go away after the probation period is over. That authority is Jesus Christ.
Arizona's choice to rehabilitate a killer by forcing him to die on the cross of Republicanism sure worked out: right, Steve?
I hesitate to take sides. Perhaps the most salient point for voters this fall is the Mike Rounds has apparently taken both sides. Initially, after two years of study, he apparently took Ramos's side. He apparently accepted some explanation like what Angelo Cruz lays out here to justify leniency toward Ramos. But then when he realized that position had political implications, he reversed himself, rejected Cruz's story, and now takes a position more like Craig's and Vargo.
I can't say confidently what the facts are. But if I were Governor, I'd get clear on those facts. Mike Rounds apparently can't do that.
At least Arizona can say that taking two hours to kill a condemned man is humane because he lived two more hours than he was supposed to. I'm gonna guess it was certainly unusual punishment since it has never happened before.
Doesn't the law say that if you can prove you were intoxicated when you signed a contract,that contract is not valid?
Steve, your comment has little to do with the reasoning Rounds used or didn't use to make his decision, then reverse his decision. But John Hult reports that Ramos has written plays for the prison church. Sounds like Ramos is working for Jesus... though that would bring me back to the primary question at the end of my post: what price must a man pay for committing a heinous crime? A convict can do all sorts of wonderful things, but those wonderful things do not erase the awful thing he did. When is the debt to society paid, and by what action or sacrifice is that debt fully paid? Mr. Cruz's list of comparable crimes and widely varying sentences suggests judges find that question complicated.
Rounds evidently thought Ramos did something to pay a big chunk of that debt, then changed his mind and decided Ramos cannot fully pay that debt by any sacrfice less than a lifetime behind bars.
By the way, consider this question: suppose three people commit crimes comparable to Ramos's. All three get life sentences. All three proceed to be exemplary prisoners. All three do good works in prison. All three express remorse and show equivalent signs of calming down and not posing a threat of doing further violence. Yet one converts to Christianity, one converts to Islam, and one becomes an atheist. Who gets parole?
Because my post was getting too long, I did not mention Rounds, or his advisers.
I think using the not being able to locate Debbie's family as an excuse to reduce the sentence was a cop-out, and a clever way of avoiding responsibility in the event that Ramos is released early and uses violent behavior in the future.
I have disliked Rounds since the time he cancelled the state contract with two businesses owned by South Dakotans in favor of doing business with two businesses in MN.
My dislike increased when he used the SD state own airplane for his pleasure without reimbursing the cost. If the Argus had not exposed that little tidbit, I doubt that he would have ever reimbursed the state.
If he is willing to betray SD, I cannot imagine what he would be willing to do to betray our country.
He is not the person who should be representing SD, or anyone else.
I'm guessing that in Cory's hypothetical about which of the three inmates gets parole,the one who converts to Islam is probably a minority with something less than pastey white hide,which in a red state,appears to be an automatic strike. So the Islam convert with two strikes is probably never gonna sniff parole.
"Yet one converts to Christianity, one converts to Islam, and one becomes an atheist. Who gets parole?"
Currently the system does not consider any of those distinctions. A much more important judgment will be made that will take those distinctions into consideration. Whether or not one gets parole becomes a moot point.
Sadly, the decision on who gets parole is based on how much capacity our prisons have and then goes to who poses a lessor danger to society. South Dakota has chosen to free drunks and drug addicts. Sadly we all understand that those behaviors can lead to death for any one of us. There is a recent case in Sioux Falls where the drunk driver is obviously very sorry for the death that he caused. Even though we may not agree that the person should be prison, we should forgive and pray he finds comfort in the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
Christ has failed you, Steve: your misanthropy disqualifies your brand of christianity.
Theoretically, we send people to prison for at least three reasons: (1) to protect society from further crimes by an unrehabilitated offender; (2) to rehabilitate the offender; and (3) for revenge. I am somewhat surprised and disappointed to read that most Madville arguments against releasing Ramos are premised on the third factor, revenge. It seems that Sibby's viewpoint on such a concept has began to rub off of many Madville commentors.
That said, I fully agree with Cory that Rounds attempt to distance himself from his act of commuting the sentence stinks of political considerations with no regard for either Ramos or the victim's family. This turn around suggests a serious a lack of integrity.
Our Republican controlled state legislature shares responsibility for the failure to notify the victims of the request for clemency because our statute apparently does not require notice to the victims. SDCL 24-14-3 provides only:
"Notice to prosecuting attorney, sentencing judge, attorney general, and law enforcement of hearing for clemency. The executive director shall notify the attorney who prosecuted the person applying for clemency, or the attorney' s successor in office, the sentencing judge, the attorney general, and the sheriff or local law enforcement agency where the offense was committed, at least thirty days prior to a hearing by the board."
While the next statutory provision requires publication of the notice, our one party legislative body has not adopted a statute requiring this published notice be sent to the victim.
It is extremely unlikely that Rounds made his decision to grant clemency arbitrarily, as our statutes authorize the Governor to delegate authority to the Board of Pardons and Parole to receive such applications and to make findings and written recommendations to the Governor on each request. See SDCL 24-14, sections 1, 5 and 7. I have seen no contention that these statutes were not followed in Ramos' case, nor that the Board recommended against clemency. Presumably the Board found that Ramos was no longer dangerous, that he had rehabilitated himself, and the need for revenge had been fulfilled. Rounds likely followed this recommendation because he trusted the integrity of the Board of Pardons and Parole.
God, Jesus, or the Bible does not play a role in the commutation, parole & probation, or a pardon of a convicted felon. It has been tried and there are precedents that disallow religion from this process.
Forgiveness will always be on an individual basis granted or not granted the victim or families of the victim. Forgiveness is not a legal claim. if a convicted felon wants forgiveness he can asks Sibson for it.
To Cory's question on what price must a person convicted of a heinous crime pay. As I understand it, that price is paid to society when the felon completes a prison sentence and honors all conditions of their parole. Naturally he will always be seen as a convicted killer and society will continue to hand out its own form of social justice by not acknowledging the rights he has lost and not allowing him in the workplace.
Bearcreekbat, doesn't society have a duty to protect our most vulnerable - women and children - from violent men? From what I've read, Ramos has a history of beating women.
Would you have Ramos babysit your children or date your daughter or sister? Most of the time these men get better medical treatment in prison anyway, don't they?
bcb - I feel it is often easy to misintrepret fear or distrust as revenge. Seems to me that many would argue your first option is most applicable in this case: to protect society from further crimes by an unrehabilitated offender.
Perhaps Ramos is rehabilitated... perhaps. However he has a known history of violence and although this was the first time he had killed, it wasn't the first time he relied upon violence to get his way. The problem is every convict claims they are reformed and would never repeat their crimes - at least that is what they say when up for parole. The problem is recidivism rates tell a different story, and often we see the same types of people in and out of jail/prison and repeating the same cycle.
That said, there is a fourth reason we send people to prison. Punishment. Each person can decide for themselves if they feel he has been punished enough for taking a life (or two lives depending upon your viewpoint) and for destroying a family.
I'm not sure 20 years is punishment enough, but that isn't what I base my opinion on. I'm simply not convinced he is a changed man. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't... but I'm probably not willing to take his word for it. Since nobody other than him really knows... well here we are.
As to Rounds - I really don't think this is an issue anyone can use against him politically. Janklow's pardons went on to create havoc as well and it didn't seem to sideline his career either. The worst thing that could be said IF Ramos was parolled and IF he engaged in further violence in the future is that perhaps Rounds is a poor judge of character. I may not want Rounds to be our next Senator, but I don't think this issue has any traction. It is a distraction - and there are far better reasons to not support Rounds in any future political endeavors. Greed, backdoor deals, and corruption come to mind.... his stance on commutations and pardons doesn't even register in the top 50.
"It seems that Sibby's viewpoint on such a concept has began to rub off of many Madville commentors. "
BCB, I am surprised you issued that false allegation. My argument was based on your first point, to protect society.
One word- Joseph Patterson. This violent predator has a history of assault BEFORE he killed Adrian Peterson's biological son AND the judge still lets him out on bail and THEN he seriously assaulted the ex-girlfriend just last month. I just know this @#$% will kill again and needs stay in prison for a long, long, time.
Rodger Cornelius, I am an Evangelical. I can tell you that God certainly had a hand in this whole process.
Evangelicals, as do I, believe that God is in absolute control over everything. In fact, God has known the outcome of world history before He created the world. Hey, I don't expect for you to believe this and that's ok with me.
Forgiveness: there have been many cases where the families of the victims have forgiven the person who killed their loved ones. Oftentimes forgiveness helps the person more who has lost the loved one rather than the one who took the life of the loved one.
Corrie Ten Boom forgave her Nazi captors who tormented her and her sister and killed her sister in a concentration camp.
Btw, who is Sibons?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/freed-prisoners-were-battle-hardened-taliban-commanders/2014/05/31/d52b3005-636e-4c65-a1da-2b9ace667e4d_story.html
Freed prisoners were battle-hardened Taliban commanders
KABUL — They were among the Taliban’s most influential commanders — five men whom the United States succeeded in removing from the battlefield.
*Read the rest of the story on the link above.*
=======
They were the worst of the worst terrorists!
Who among you voted for Obama?
Are you protesting as much against them as you are against my nephew?
"Btw, who is Sibons?"
Angelo, that is me. Warning, there are many on this web site who hate Christians. But they do like the fake ones.
"Who among you voted for Obama?"
That same ones that hate Biblical Christians.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/14/obama-admin-admits-releasing-thousands-of-illegal-immigrants-including-drunken-drivers/
Obama Admin. Admits Releasing Thousands of Illegal Immigrants, Including Drunken Drivers
WASHINGTON (AP) — After weeks of denials, the Obama administration acknowledged Thursday that it had, in fact, released more than 2,000 illegal immigrants from immigration jails.
They included 10 people considered the highest level of offender.
That's funny!
I didn't catch that. I just looked at your first name.
Are you Born-Again?
Jenny, are you comparing my nephew to Joseph Patterson?
Tell me Jenny, do you KNOW my nephew?
Do you know his future?
I'm listening . . .
Angelo Cruz,
Two things come to mind immediately with your last comment. First, if it is your evangelical belief that God is always in control of all things, he help your nephew murder Debbie and her baby.
The second is that if Angelo is in prison for Debbie and her child's murder, that is what God wants and he will let him out when he decides to.
Your references to the Taliban prisoners that were exchanged are completely off topic and irrelevant. The Taliban were international prisoners of war that were being held without the benefit of judicial representation or prosecution. How long does America get to hold prisoners of war without prosecution?
In your nephew's case, he did have an attorney, prosecution team and a judge, did he not? Those rights are necessarily granted to prisoners of war.
Prior to the commutation granted by Rounds, did Ramos exhaust all appeals?
Sibson is the Madville Times resident false prophet, he has declared a one man War on Christians.
Mr. Cruz, I doubt if you'll get very far enlisting support here by bashing Mr. Obama. I suggest you visit http://dakotawarcollege.com and discuss your issue from that perspective with the people there. They will perhaps be more inclined to be supportive of Mr. Rounds' decision to commute and certainly more sympathetic to hearing your criticisms of our President. I voted for Obama, by the way, and I also think people some people convicted of crimes can rehabilitate themselves.
So it really wasn't your nephew's fault? You're saying god played a part in the killing of Debbie Martinez and her unborn child?
Do you have any idea how crazy that sounds??? That God played a part in Debbie's murder? If you're teaching that kind of Christianity to your nephew, that's all the more reason to keep him behind bars!!
I think conversations by outsiders about whether a person is rehabilitated or not are rarely, if ever, productive. This is particularly so when it is an argument between a person who knows the offender and a person who knows about the offense through the news. The one who knows the offender knows a lot more about them than just their offense and can empathize with them and forgive them. The person who knows about the offense from the news usually knows the most gory/newsworthy things about the offender, the most angelic things about the victim and the typically (and understandably) angry thoughts of the victim or their loved ones. The truth is that nobody knows whether he is rehabilitated or not. He probably doesn't even know for certain and won't unless he's released and given the opportunity to choose his own path.
My initial, visceral response to the crime was revulsion, and it still is, but this is SD and we generally don't hand out commutations to violent offenders, so the parole board and Rounds must have had some compelling evidence to recommend and give the commutation. Those facts should give us pause.
I suspect that Rounds' turnabout is purely political and that makes me suspicious. On the other hand, Mr. Cruz, your references to Obama and the Taliban are weak arguments that really hurt your credibility.
craig
My nephew has rehabilitated. How do I know?
1 - He has taken every available class and rehabilitative course offered in prison since the tragic day 20 plus years ago. There are no more classes available for him to take. Some classes he has taken over because he needed and valued them.
2 - When his son and I visited Ramos the prison guards would tell us that they highly respected and liked him. The inmates were not allowed to talk with us but they told their family members who in turn told us outside the prison that they (the inmates) also liked and respected him. This was all unsolicited information.
3 - Dave Nelson, in his OWN WORDS - Argus Leader, 7/15/15: Nelson told Ramos at the end of a two-and-a-half hour hearing that "his record as an inmate was remarkable" and that he had proven that he can do well in prison. Nelson also went on to say that he had never seen an inmate serving so long and having so few infractions - (SIX) in 20 years & 5 months. There are inmates who incur 10 in one month and 100 in one year.
4 - The late four-term Gov. Bill Janklow asked to meet with my nephew because he had seen the potential value Ramos could bring to the Gov.'s Domestic Abuse programs that were being implemented at the time in 1998.
The purpose of prison is to rahabilitate those that can be rehabilitated.
If you have read anything I posted above then you will take note that Robert L Slee did nothing to get rehabilitated. He was given 15 years against the advise and the protests of Jay Miller, a Deputy State Prosecuter. Slee was ultimately released in ONE YEAR, in 1994 for having INTENTIONALLY shot and killed his fiancée in 1993 and was convicted of first-degree manslaughter.
Had he served 15 years he might still be alive today. (conjecture on my part) He died in his home state in a crawlspace in 2004 in Boise, Idaho. The mother of his fiancée forgave him.
SDTeacher
I simply pointed to Obama and the Taliban and the others he has released as not being worthy of being released.
You are putting more there than I had ever intended.
You need to read everything in their proper context to better understand my comparisons.
"So it really wasn't your nephew's fault? You're saying god played a part in the killing of Debbie Martinez and her unborn child?"
No Jenny, Roger said that because he has ears but cannot hear and eyes but cannot see.
Yes Angelo, I am born again. I used to suffer from the same New Age worldview that most of these people suffer from. And Mr. Fleming is an extreme example of that.
Mr. Cruz, you are just another in a long line of hustlers. We all get the fact that you are much like Sibson in your volleys of righteous indignation against free thinkers who would dare to either jail your killer nephew or in your new bro Sibson's case, to speak against his perception of religion.
You nephew was convicted of killing this lady brutally. Simple as that, his case was looked at by the people who recommend sentencing and they found he was a turd and they gave him the max. Simple stuff. A politician named Rounds got involved for some reason and did not change anything really but to give your nephew a chance at parole. The board did not buy it and it would seem, neither do we here on this thread.
Your insult to the prisoner of war in prisoner of war trade is much to much. You are not a veteran it would seem and have never seen combat nor have seen what it is like to understand how battlefield conditions really are. So, sir, with due respect to the POW's, STFU.
I could care if you like Obama or Beck or anyone for that matter. If you vote, you can make your choice, that is up to you.
If a victim or their families grant forgiveness for a heinous act, does that translate to early release from prison?
There always seems to be contradictions between whether prison should be for rehabilitation or punishment and neither are clearly stated.
From the basic point of law, it is likely that prison is for punishment for that heinous act.
Rehabilitation sounds nice but as pointed out by Craig, the recidivism rates for violent offenders is extremely high and the risk to society is just to great.
I don't know what is in Ramos' heart and soul, I know the facts of the case itself, about the Rounds commutation and Angelo's advocacy for his nephew. The one thing that I don't know, is whether or not Ramos has fully accepted responsibility for his heinous actions that caused Debbie and her baby their lives?
Mr. Cruz
I carefully read all of your comments and understood them. I'm also one of the few people who openly argued that there was probably a legitimate reason to commute your nephew's sentence (so perhaps you are the one who ought to read more carefully). You should know that if there was a person online who would be most likely to empathize with you, it would probably have been me, but your comments are alienating. If you're going to be his advocate, then you should start thinking about how you come across. The messenger's credibility matters, particularly when the messenger is using their own experiences and knowledge as proof of their claim.
Wrong on both counts, Sibson:
1. I am not a New Ager, I am a Catholic who knows how to think.
2. Mr. Cruz wrote precisely what Jenny thought he wrote, to wit:
________
"Rodger Cornelius, I am an Evangelical. I can tell you that God certainly had a hand in this whole process.
Evangelicals, as do I, believe that God is in absolute control over everything."
_________
And Sibby, let's pay more attention to Mr. Cruz's suffering and less to yours, shall we? This thread isn't about you, it's about him and his nephew.
Mr. Cruz, that is great that you are being supportive of your uncle.
There is, and rightfully so, some fear of your uncle being released because of his history of violence. I have seen the impact of domestic violence, not only on the direct victim, but also the indirect victims. It is frightening.
What would be the re-entry plan if your uncle would be released? Would he live in something like the Glory House to help make the transition, and assist him cope with an environment that is not as restrictive (controlled,) as a prison?
Would family members help him by attending AA type of meetings with him on a regular basis? Would someone be able to intervene if he displays any indication of violence?
If there is a solid plan to help him transition, and a strong support system that will be able to assist him, and continued therapy, it might help his cause, and to reassure those of us who fear for the next potential violence.
Ooops, I meant next potential victim, not next potential violence.
I apologize for my error.
Sibby,you're a nutcase! Watch out for squirrels.
And Mr. Fleming also has ears but cannot hear and eyes but cannot see. Angelo never said that "god played a part in the killing of Debbie Martinez and her unborn child". And Catholics are likely to be attracted to the mysticism of the New Age.
Why don't you let Mr. Cruz answer his own questions Sibson. He knows what he meant. If he says he believes God has control of everything, why wouldn't you take him at his word? The problem with you is that you presume to know what's in everyone's mind. Who do you think you are?
Bill, Mr. Sibby is insaner than most. I think you and he could have a great discussion at Talley's the next time he is in town and I will moderate so it is fair.
grudz,
Sibson doesn't know how to have a discussion, the false prophet preaches and condemns Christians. He is also good at posting is irrelevant bull shit on nearly every Madville Times thread.
When Sibby checks himself into Yankton, I promise to go visit him. You can come too grudz, but don't say anything, or I might not be able to get you out.
For example, it would be a really bad idea to ask the person in charge of Sibby's ward if he has a bit of dwarf in him, regardless of how short his arms are. :-]
Sibson has a brain and consistently sits on it rather than use it.
There were ten people who spoke at the pre-parole hearing favoring the granting of parole to Mr. Ramos including four long term prison volunteer workers , some who had worked with him for well over a decade. The minister from Prison Miniseries who works at the prisons full-time noted that his wife also volunteers and that when he had to leave her in a room full of inmates, he always looked to see if Mr. Ramos was present, and if so he felt assured that she would be safe. He, like so many of the others testified that this calm, mature, controlled man of forty-five is nothing like the aggressive, mean-spirited, hot-headed alcoholic of twenty years ago when the shooting, which the prosecution agreed was an accident, took place. The family of the victim argued that he hadn't changed, which is contradicted by the testimony of everyone who has had contact with him for the two-thirds of his adult life that he has spent in prison. I think of what I was like when I was around that age, just back from Vietnam, wild-in-the-streets, heavy drinker and then what I was twenty years later, happily married, three great kids, airline pilot for a major airline, a regular pillar of the community. To argue that a man is the same as a "snapshot" that you have of him twenty yeas ago, when you have had no contact with him in that time, when all the empirical evidence, psychological evaluation, impeccable prison records and the like point to the contrary, just isn't creditable. That seemed to be the key argument, has Mr. Ramos rehabilitated himself and additionally has justice been served.
An entirely unemotional, objective evaluation (and if my loved one was the victim, I can't say that I could make that kind of evaluation either) would be that Mr. Ramos is a real success story for our penal system and is a radically changed man. As far as determining if justice has been served, one must bear in mind that in most any other jurisdiction in this country or anywhere in the Westernized World for that matter, he would have been released at least a decade ago after serving ten years for manslaughter.
This brings us to the fiduciary obligation of the Parole Board to the South Dakota taxpayers. We have already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars incarcerating this inmate. Everything is underfunded in the state, healthcare, education, infrastructure, everything, and there are only so many pieces of the pie to go around. If Mr. Ramos is no longer a threat and if justice has been served, then the Board should not waste another dime of our taxes keeping him in a cage. And then we might also consider the the humanity of forgiveness, the thing that most sets us apart from those who's actions we despise and punish.
Craig
*He committed his crime in 1994. Is 20 years enough punishment to make up for taking a life and abusing not only the woman he killed, but his ex-wife as well? Does it take into account the fetus that died as a result of his violence? Does it factor in the ramifications to the lives of Martines' children who saw their mother die in front of their very eyes, or the lifelong mental struggles they will suffer as a result of his rage and violence?*
Joaquin Ramos pleaded guilty and was convicted of first-degree manslaughter.
He was NOT convicted of any other ramifications although they did play a part in the length of his sentence.
Craig
*I'm a big proponent of rehabilitation for non-violent offenders, but for violent crime such as this I am not convinced true rehabilitation is a possibility. I might be wrong, but I'd rather err on the side of caution.*
Craig, have you been tracking the statistics on the value of rehabilitation in prison and do you realize how expensive your 'caution' would cost the taxpayers of America?
jerry
*Now, as far as Rounds goes. He must have read something to get himself involved with this in the first place.*
jerry, you should read the Rapid City Journal on the case. Mike Rounds received the recommendations by the Board of Pardons & Paroles in 2008 that examined my nephew's dramatic behavior and character changes that compelled them to view him as worthy of commutation.
>>> In a statement issued late Thursday, Rounds’ press secretary, Joe Kafka, said Rounds made the decision to commute the sentence after long, careful consideration. <<>> “These are not matters he takes lightly and decides on a whim,” Kafka said. “He dwelled on this for more than two years. <<<
Roger Cornelius
*In reviewing the cases cited by Cruz, there was not one that involved the death of an unborn child. Hopefully this factored into his original sentence and should be considered every time he comes up for parole.*
Legalized abortion in this country makes this factor a moot consideration.
South Dakota* S.D. Codified Laws Ann. § 22-16-41 defines vehicular homicide, which includes the death of an unborn child. Amended in 2003 to revise provisions concerning court suspensions and revocations of driver licenses; relates to driving while under the influence of alcohol or controlled substances and causing the death of another person, including an unborn child (2006 HB 1163).
S.D. Codified Laws Ann. § 22-16-1.1 et seq. defines fetal homicide which refers to a person who knew, or reasonably should have known, that a woman bearing an unborn child was pregnant and caused the death of the unborn child without lawful justification. The law provides for penalties.
S.D. Codified Laws Ann. § 22-16-4 defines homicide as murder in the first degree to include the death of a person or any other human being, including an unborn child.
2012 Senate Bill 148 defines the crimes of criminal battery and aggravated criminal battery of an unborn child and provides penalties.
Roger Cornelius
*Debbie's family has to travel great distances to oppose Ramos' parole*
I have to travel a greater distance than they do Roger.
*I hope they continue to make their argument to keep Ramos where he deserves to be.*
Are you going to protest the early legal release on behalf of the other victim's families that I have cited above or just the Ramos case Roger?
Steven Sibson
*There is one authority that if one accepts, does not go away after the probation period is over. That authority is Jesus Christ.*
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Joaquin Ramos is a New Creation whether the world recognizes it or not.
Thanks for locating those statutes Mike. Mr. Cruz, did your nephew plead guilty to two counts of manslaughter or just one? Sorry I'm not more familiar with the case.
caheidelberger
*I hesitate to take sides.*
I respect you for this sir!
*But then when he realized that position had political implications, he reversed himself, rejected Cruz's story, and now takes a position more like Craig's and Vargo.*
Your insightful thoughts and analysis are refreshing and much appreciated.
I do think that Vargo has become Rounds' political lapdog.
caheidelberger
*Sounds like Ramos is working for Jesus...*
He is and I am too!
*what price must a man pay for committing a heinous crime?*
Forty eight states have on their books sentences of 4-40 years max for first-degree manslaughter. Other countries follow a similar suit.
Oscar Pistorius faces a sentence of '25 years to life' but those in the know say that he will probably face something under 20 years.
*Rounds evidently thought Ramos did something to pay a big chunk of that debt*
What Rounds read was the Parole Board's strong recommendation for commutation BASED UPON Ramos' DRAMATIC TURNAROUND that began the day Debbie died.
Take note of the fact I stated before that four-tern Gov. Bill Janklow in 1999 had requested Ramos' input into Janklow's Domestic Abuse programs that are well documented, among many other things not known by the public.
*By the way, consider this question: suppose three people commit crimes comparable to Ramos's. All three get life sentences. All three proceed to be exemplary prisoners. All three do good works in prison. All three express remorse and show equivalent signs of calming down and not posing a threat of doing further violence. Yet one converts to Christianity, one converts to Islam, and one becomes an atheist. Who gets parole?*
>>> All three of them. <<<
If I may steal a portion of a speech from MLK it would go like this: "I have a dream that men in prison will not be judged by the political labels they have but by the content of their character."
JeniW
*I think using the not being able to locate Debbie's family as an excuse to reduce the sentence was a cop-out*
I think you're not reading anything posted.
Debbie's family did not maintain their current addresses with anyone.
It was THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to do so.
Stop blaming Rounds.
VORP attempted to locate them years before the commutation and could not.
larry kurtz
*Christ has failed you, Steve: your misanthropy disqualifies your brand of christianity.*
Hey larry, there are seven things God cannot do and one of them found in two verses is:
He Cannot Fail
Deuteronomy 31:6 - Psalms 89:33
Hallelujah!
God @TheTweetOfGod · 13m
Note to Self: Next time, no Middle East.
God @TheTweetOfGod · Jul 22
At those darkest moments when it feels like I've abandoned you, remember: I was never with you to begin with.
bearcreekbat
*Presumably the Board found that Ramos was no longer dangerous, that he had rehabilitated himself.*
I find your analysis to be highly astute and skilled however, in this one thing we part company because it is based upon a theological understanding: Ramos did not - 'rehabilitated himself' - it was through the saving Grace of Jesus Christ that this was accomplished.
Paul of Tarsus was hung over and had been smoking opium when he was overcome with it. Jesus of Nazareth was tempted by it in the desert after fasting. Joseph Smith was 18, drunkenly praying that God would forgive him for sins of debauchery when he got it. Wovoka witnessed a solar eclipse on peyote that compelled a generation of Ghost Dancers.
http://www.amazon.com/Fingerprints-God-Search-Science-Spirituality/dp/1594488770
Angelo, it is certainly possible that I misunderstood your post, but that does not mean that I did not read it.
Why is it that Debbie's family was obligated to notify people of their new address, and who were they suppose to notify of the change, especially when they thought Mr. Ramos was going to spend the rest of his life in prison?
I still think if you would provide a solid plan, particularly to the parole board, if you have not done so already, of how his support system will help him to make the transition of moving from the prison into the community, including helping him seek employment, be his advocate to continue treatment, and what interventions would be used if Mr. Ramos shows signs of struggling that might trigger his consuming alcohol/drugs, and controlling his anger, it might help.
Jenny
*From what I've read, Ramos has a history of beating women.*
Jenny, that's in the past.
Would you say the same thing of a bank robber? "He has a history of robbing banks," therefore, he ought to never see the light of day.
Jenny, do you have a history of annoying your relatives?
Yes you do!
Imagine if they never forgave you for that.
Bill Fleming
He pleaded guilty to one count of first-degree manslaughter.
I guess the parole board took all things into consideration to deny the parole. They look at the facts in the case and then they make their decisions, what is so hard to understand?
Not really following the logic here, I guess.
If God (because he has control over everything) and alcohol (because Ramos says he wouldn't have done what he did if he was sober) were the root causes of the murder, and Jesus and Saving Grace are responsible for the rehabilitation, where in all that do we find Ramos taking personal responsibility for any of his emotions, moods, thoughts and actions either way?
It sounds a lot like scapegoating, Mr. Cruz.
Perhaps the parole board needs to hear less of that and more of Ramos being in control of his own behavior. Because if it's not ultimately up to him, who knows what he might do and who might be to blame when he's back out in the world on his own?
Craig
*Perhaps Ramos is rehabilitated... perhaps.*
Yes he has Craig but neither the public nor the victim's family nor the State Attorney would know except for the 2008 Board of Pardons & Parole, the prison guards, other inmates, his Pastor and ME, his uncle!
*However he has a known history of violence and although this was the first time he had killed, it wasn't the first time he relied upon violence to get his way.*
You are absolutely correct in this assesment Craig and neither my nephew nor I would contest this statement however, this is in the past and the past can NEVER be altered, right?
Just imagine if you said something or did something to hurt your girlfriend/spouse and she said that you have a history of hurting her and therefore she is planning to leave you and never forgive you.
I'm sure right about now you would wish she would have a poor memory.
Nobody here would be surprised to learn there isn't big anti-Willie Hortonism going on in this case during a Rounds run for US Senate.
Curious which bishop lobbied Rounds in this case because catholics and mercy, whatever.
jerry
*They look at the facts in the case and then they make their decisions, what is so hard to understand?*
=======
Family victims want punishment and revenge
Politicians want votes
Media wants readers/watchers
Mary Jo - South Dakota Peace & Justice
Steve Sibson
*Warning, there are many on this web site who hate Christians. But they do like the fake ones.*
Hey Steve, I've got news for you, I was once an atheist (32 yrs) who didn't care for Christians either.
I've been on Amazon chat rooms and I know what fierce opposition to His Word is all about but thanks for the heads up - I can forgive them all as Jesus has forgiven me, a dirty filthy ragtag of the lowest kind.
Roger Cornelius
*Two things come to mind immediately with your last comment. First, if it is your evangelical belief that God is always in control of all things, he help your nephew murder Debbie and her baby.*
1 - God is ALWAYS in CONTROL.
2 - God does NOT help anyone to murder.
3 - Ramos DID NOT murder Debbie and their child.
Are you READING ANYTHING I've posted Roger?
*The second is that if Angelo is in prison for Debbie and her child's murder, that is what God wants and he will let him out when he decides to.*
PROOF that Roger is NOT reading a blessed thing.
Hey Roger, if I'm in prison how is it that we are chatting here, huh? Sheesh!
Bill Fleming
*Mr. Cruz, I doubt if you'll get very far enlisting support here by bashing Mr. Obama.*
I'm not looking for support, I'm looking for an avenue by which to get the TRUTH out that cannot be found through the media.
*I voted for Obama, (sorry to hear that Bill) by the way, and I also think people some people convicted of crimes can rehabilitate themselves.*
Thanks for that. Much appreciated. But only God can help people be truly rehabilitated.
Jenny
*So it really wasn't your nephew's fault? You're saying god played a part in the killing of Debbie Martinez and her unborn child?*
It staggers my mind how you have reached this mind-boggling conclusion!
Jehovah God has given us Free Moral Agency. We choose what we want. It started in the Garden of Eden and it continues to this day.
Angelo, obviously you're going down the list of posts and writing your replies. I also see what you're doing, media wise. I'll let you catch up to my thoughts about scapegoating and we can chat later. My observation at this time is that you appear to be a splendid uncle and that our nephew is lucky to have you in his corner.
mike from iowa,
Do you think you could find and post the most recent parole board denial of Ramos's request? I'm not interested in snippets from advocates that could easily be taken out of context.
As I understand this, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ramos plead to one count of 1st degree manslaughter, is it possible that the state dropped charges in the death of an unborn child as a part of accepting that plea. That happens quite frequently where charges are reduced or dropped in the state accepting a plea.
Another thing I don't know and have asked Mr. Cruz about, and that is the appellate process in this case. Were there any appeals, particularly for unfair sentencing. Have all appeals been exhausted?
Jenny
*If you're teaching that kind of Christianity to your nephew, that's all the more reason to keep him behind bars!!*
Actually Jenny, me think you is learning this kind of Christianity all by your little old self.
I think I should begin taking Extra Strength Excedrin right about now . . .
What is so hard to understand that a parole board said no way were they going to do that parole thing. Rounds got involved because he read about it and thought that it would be a good idea to do that parole thing, the parole board said no. Now you can get Dennis Daugaard to forgive and commute the sentence possibly. Call him, I am sure he will take your call and make your nephew a free man.
Steve
*Yes Angelo, I am born again. I used to suffer from the same New Age worldview that most of these people suffer from. And Mr. Fleming is an extreme example of that.*
Hallelujah Steve!
Mr Fleming can be forgiven too because God loves him!
jerry
*Mr. Cruz, you are just another in a long line of hustlers.*
Why are you so HOSTILE jerry?
SDTeacher
*You should know that if there was a person online who would be most likely to empathize with you, it would probably have been me, but your comments are alienating. If you're going to be his advocate, then you should start thinking about how you come across.*
SDT, you are absolutely right in this and whatever I may have said to alienate you or anyone else then I offer my sincere apologies.
Know this, being a Christian doesn't always immunize us from saying or doing dumb things. We suffer the same fate as the rest of the world.
The Word says that the rains fall on the just and the unjust alike.
Mea culpa, I'm sorry.
SD Teacher: "The truth is that nobody knows whether he is rehabilitated or not."
Exactly my point... there is only one person who knows, and how can I know if he is being completely honest? As said before, I prefer to err on the side of caution.
Angelo: "My nephew has rehabilitated"
That is your opinion and you have every right to it, but that is what it is... an opinion. The fact your nephew took classes is great, but classes don't guarantee rehabilitation. The opinion of fellow prisoners or guards also has no bearing on his rehabilitation.
His record as an inmate might be amazing, but it would be his record in the outside world that everyone cares about. We know he can't abuse alcohol or beat women while in prison because he has access to neither - I'm not convinced that proves he isn't capable of returning to his old behavior.
Angelo: "Craig, have you been tracking the statistics on the value of rehabilitation in prison and do you realize how expensive your 'caution' would cost the taxpayers of America?"
I'm not suggested every violent offender should be locked up for life with no possibility of parole. Each case is unique, each prisoner is unique. However, statistics bear out that violent criminals (and yes Ramos is a convicted violent criminal) have very high recidivism rates. That means there is a high probability they will re-offend and end up back in prison. We can't know he will of course, but we can't know he won't. You seem to think god controls everything and has a plan... was his plan for Ramos to kill Martines? If so - how can you predict what the rest of his plan is?
You can speak about how expensive it is to be cautious, but I'd argue the societal costs of being hasty or rash are far, far greater.
Angelo: "Legalized abortion in this country makes this factor a moot consideration."
You can't be serious. You are equating a woman's legal choice to that of a separate person deciding whether a fetus should continue to grow and ultimately become a distinct being?
In your mind and based upon that logic, you presume since abortion is legal that someone should be able to kill a pregnant woman's fetus on a whim with no punishment whatsoever. Thankfully the court systems disagree with you and as Mike pointed out, fetal homicide is very much illegal, and should factor into any sentence as well as any consideration given for parole.
JeniW
*Mr. Cruz, that is great that you are being supportive of your uncle.*
There is, and rightfully so, some fear of your uncle being released because of his history of violence.*
Thank you JeniW for your kind words.
First let me say that the families' contention that Ramos would pose a threat to them is unfounded because he would be living in FLORIDA - not South Dakota.
Second, there are a number of programs in my home state designed to help released inmates such as Teen Challenge and AA and many others.
Also, he has many family members standing by to help as any family in America would do.
Btw, Joaquin Ramos is my nephew, not my uncle.
Larry kurtz
God @TheTweetOfGod · Jul 22
*At those darkest moments when it feels like I've abandoned you, remember: I was never with you to begin with.*
Hey larry, I think you're funny!
Are you auditioning for SNL?
"Ramos did Not murder Debbie and her baby".
So, I take it that Debbie and her baby are alive and well and living a healthy productive life somewhere. WOW! She is alive, better call Governor Daugaard immediately.
Angelo,
Some of the regulars that comment on Madville are aware of the vision problem I have and even have difficulties proof reading, they tolerate and correct from time to time.
Obviously I typed your name instead of the killer Ramos.
auditioning for godhood everyday, mr. cruz.
JeniW
*Angelo, it is certainly possible that I misunderstood your post, but that does not mean that I did not read it.*
There I go again. Sorry JeniW. Sometimes I put my foot in my mouth when I speak and when I write. I presumed that you did not read the post just like an idiot.
Mea culpa. Sorry.
JeniW, the family were NOT obligated to inform anyone, you are right. What happened was that when the commutation was granted they needed to be notified but could not because they did not leave any forwarding address.
My nephew, by law, published the commutation request in the Rapid City Journal but it was not seen by Jackie McLain, Debbie's daughter, who lives in Keystone, not far from Rapid City.
Correction: "Just like the idiot that I am."
I am not so hostile Mr. Cruz, I just recognize bullshit when I hear it and see it. The facts are clear, your nephew is what is called in Spanish as machismo. That means they do not want to be bested by anyone and in particular, in front of their women. Your nephew got his ass handed to him by the taxi driver in front of his girl friend, that was much too much for a turd like your nephew and he knew he could only retaliate with something stronger than himself. So the drunk ass got himself a gun and killed. No matter how you bullshit about it, he in fact, killed his girl friend because of his anger. Your nephew is a bully and the bull pen is a damn good place to keep his sorry ass until the day comes that the parole board feels he is no longer a threat.
Roger,I just recently saw your post and have been looking for some time. This I find is very interesting(tedious reading)
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/303/934/505666/
Ramos conviction was appealed,I believe,on a couple of grounds. He was originally charged with one count of 1st degree murder,I'm guessing that at that time the fetus was not considered a seperate person. I think there isd also a SD Supreme Court appeal. I'll look for it.
And then to try and say his nephew didn't kill her! Leave God out of this, Cruz. Own up to what your nephew did!!!!
http://ujs.sd.gov/Supreme_Court/opiniondetail.aspx?ID=839
I'm thinking that Ramos murder charge was pled down because his gf was not the intended victim of gunshot,but the guy Ramos was fighting with was probably the intended victim and she tried to intervene and was killed.
Bill Fleming
*I am not a New Ager, I am a Catholic who knows how to think.*
I was born into a Catholic home at birth. My family were Democrats, they had JFK's portrait hanging in the living room.
Then in my teens I became an atheist and for the next 32 years I had turned my back on God.
I am now an Evangelical since just before 9/11.
*And Sibby, let's pay more attention to Mr. Cruz's suffering and less to yours, shall we? This thread isn't about you, it's about him and his nephew.*
Thank you kindly Mr Fleming. Your words are much appreciated.
mike from iowa,
Thanks for providing the links, they were not tedious reading and offered a lot that I did not know.
Just a couple things to note, the court noted throughout their rulings that Ramos needs to control and that control intensifies when he is under the influence. His demand that Debbie return home that night seems to have been the issue that ignited his anger. The need to control is an addictive behavior and is rarely treatable. That seemed to be one of the courts decision in their ruling.
When Ramos attacked Debbie, he knew that she was four months pregnant and disregarded her health and that of the child. Again, this referenced to into in the appellate denial.
Not having read the actual plea agreement between Ramos and the state, it appears that the state erred in not requiring Ramos to waive his right to appeal his conviction and sentence.
Bill Fleming
*where in all that do we find Ramos taking personal responsibility for any of his emotions, moods, thoughts and actions either way?
It sounds a lot like scapegoating, Mr. Cruz.*
You are right in believing this Mr. Fleming. Now, I KNOW you are a smart man who understands very well that none of us can ever depend upon the media to feed us all the information that we absolutely need.
Therefore sir, only I can present to you the missing pieces that the media, in all their glory, cannot do.
1 - At the first parole hearing in November 2013, my nephew spoke all of 5 minutes terrified by the families' hate and anger for him. Prosecutor Mark Vargo accused him of lying about what happened 20 years earlier concerning the events that led up to the Debbie's death. There was absolutely no media present and 4 people who spoke on his behalf and 20 who spoke against.
He was in panic mode. He could not even remember what he said then let alone trying to recollect memories from a past filled with pain and grief for him. It was awful! I could not afford to be with him then - I live in Florida - it is not cheap - then there are other costs as well.,
2 - The prosecutor himself, Mark Vargo, has repeatedly said that Joaquin Ramos has not accepted responsibility for his actions. The family is on board with the same sentiments.
Now, contrast this with what you DO NOT ***SEE*** on the news or ***READ*** in the papers.
1 - The REASON my nephew PLEADED to first-degree manslaughter (FDM) is because he ACCEPTED responsibility for his actions and did not want to drag the family through the drama.
2 - Ramos has repeatedly tried to reach out to the family since mid 90's to express his deep remorse and regret but as I said earlier, he tried reaching out to them through VORP but regrettably VORP was unable to locate the family.
3 - He has written a number of Forums in the Argus Leader detailing problems that he says do not work viewing it from his unique perspective. In one piece entitled: Death sentence an easy way out - he does precisely what everyone screams for him to do; accept responsibility for his actions. I saw to it that this part of this Forum piece was read in the hearing. Did you hear about it or read about it in the media Mr. Fleming? No you did not.
I will quote the significant part of the Forum piece tomorrow.
Angelo, that is terrific that Mr. Ramos has strong support from his family.
All I am saying is that, regardless of where Mr. Ramos would live after release, having a solid plan of action by you, Mr. Ramos, and other supportive individuals, to help him with his transition into whatever community he decides to live in, help him gain employment, continue treatment, and provide intervention as needed to help him deal with life stresses, it might gain a favorable response from the parole board.
It would also help Mr. Ramos know that there is a plan of action to assist him, and help family members know when and what they need to do to help him with any struggles he may have. Most importantly, it is useful for all to know that being enablers to consuming alcohol or any other non-prescription drugs will do him more harm than good.
Angelo, I forgot to mention that I agree with you that VORP ("Restore" in SD,) Teen Challenge, and AA type of programs are wonderful. They truly can help those who want assistance and support.
Bill Fleming
*My observation at this time is that you appear to be a splendid uncle and that our nephew is lucky to have you in his corner.*
Thank you kindly Mr Fleming.
Mr. Fleming
You would do the very same thing if it were your nephew or niece, whether this problem or another problem.
JeniW
You are a blessing!
Roger-this is interesting,too. It gives the background of fetal rights and how the US has gradually started finding rights for a fetus as a separate being from its mother.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Fetal+Protection+Policies
ennington County State's Attorney Mark Vargo said Ramos has not acknowledged striking Martines before the gun went off and he maintains that he was trying to protect the kids.
"In that sense, nothing has changed," Vargo said. "And I certainly don't think that you can be appropriately remorseful when you've never acknowledged what you did."
Argus Leader - Reader's Forum - January 29,1999
Joaquin J. Ramos, 30, is an inmate at the South Dakota State Penitentiary in Sioux Falls. (At the time of this publication) (This is a portion of the Forum) (This was read at the parole hearing by Chris Lauricella, Ramos' son)
=======
Death Sentence An Easy Way Out
In 1994 I caused the death of a precious human being. I chose not to go to trial because I knew what I had done was wrong. I knew that I had to stand accountable for my actions. I received a life sentence, but in reality, I'm serving two sentences. One of which the judge sentenced me to and the other I sentenced myself to the moment the victim of my crime passed away.
You see, I'm not just punished my crime but also by it. I live everyday knowing that I caused the death of another human being. This is a reality that I am left to face every waking moment of my life. Often times the guilt is so overwhelming that it even manages to invade my dreams.
There have been many countless nights that I stayed up wishing I could go back in time and undo what I have done. There is not a day that goes by that I don't think about my victim's family.
What a load of tripe Mr. Cruz. Your bully nephew killed that woman and it is good he is now feeling something. The fact is, he got shamed in front of her by being drunk and getting his ass kicked by the taxi driver that he provoked. It was by some kind of luck that there was just the victim and not the taxi driver and whoever else your nephew deemed responsible for his actions. His violence and revenge need to be tempered and it looks like the parole board does not feel that has been accomplished yet, if ever.
Mr Cruz, I don't want to take sides,but I have to ask you this about your defense of your nephew. While it is admirable on your part,what if fate hadn't intervened on that day and Ms Martines did not try to stop your nephew from going after the taxi driver. Would we be talking about your nephew being guilty of 1st degree murder instead of manslaughter? Is it likely he would be on death row instead of seeking parole?
jerry
You suffer from five of the seven deadly emotions: 1 - ANGER / 2 - BITTERNESS / 3 - HATE / 4 - RESENTMENT / 5 - UNFORGIVENESS
You need to soften your hardened heart. You sound very angry.
mike from iowa
To talk hypothetical in cases like this is to engage in endless speculation about things that could only lead to more speculation ad infinitum.
I am a proponent of capital punishment which is reserved for heinous crimes/cop killers, etc. and this case would not have measured up to that level.
A mother and her unborn baby killed by a drunk is pretty heinous.
I see you Mr. Cruz, I see you well. There is no malice here, just honesty which is something both you and your convicted killer nephew lack. When the parole board decides to release your nephew, I will not argue that point as I do not argue it now.
Mr. Cruz. We will see you in 8 months when parole is denied again. Please try and consolidate your bloggings into one giant thing so they are easier to ignore.
I posted originally that I felt Mike Rounds, who as an executive that always always tried to convince South Dakotans that he was on top of his game with the management of the state, could fail so miserably at that job. Not only could he and his regime not manage the checkbook here, but he could not help himself in getting into deals like this one. I guess when you are birds of a feather, you just feel obligated to become involved. This case with this bully makes sense to me.
Mr. Cruz, I think you got some splendid suggestions from JeniW. Everything she suggested is good.
My advice to your nephew is to write a long range plan day by day for the first two years upon leaving the facility. Detail exactly what he is going to do every hour of every day, following an outline like JeniW provided.
Write it all down and review it with other people like you who are going to be part of his support group.
Then, he really needs to work on his self control. He can't freak out and clam up when he goes before the board. He has to learn how to focus and keep his mind clear. Listen, temper his emotions, listen carefully to the questions and answer them honestly. If he really is ready, he'll know it and know exactly what it is he has to say and how to behave.
Good wishes to you Mr. Cruz. I hope your time spent here was meaningful. You are in a rough situation, and I respect you for giving unconditional love to your nephew. That kind of love is going to be hard to come by for him in other quarters as of course you already know.
Peace.
Angelo,
Can you tell us about Debbie and her life, was she a good woman? What did she do to deserve her fate and that of her child?
Was Debbie employed or did she go to school? What was her education and work experience?
We heard a couple of references to her children, did you know them, Angelo? Did you and your family console them at the time of Debbie's death?
Where was Debbie born? Did you know her parents and other relatives, are they good people?
What did Debbie do for fun and entertainment? Did she do arts and crafts, enjoy cooking for her family, or watching movies with them?
What did Debbie do to earn her fate, was God mad at her that day and decided to end her life via her fiance?
What did Debbie do wrong?
Jenny
*A mother and her unborn baby killed by a drunk is pretty heinous.*
It is if it was intentional and premeditated, but the South Dakota Supreme Court, the Pennington County State's Attorney and the 7th Circuit Judge have said it is not based upon the facts of the case.
You cannot reclassify a crime based upon emotional perspectives.
Mr Cruz,you are getting way out there suggesting that this crime wasn't heinous in and of itself. Jenny is free to classify any crime anyway she sees fit. You aren't doing either yourself or your nephew much good with those remarks.
jerry
*There is no malice here, just honesty which is something both you and your convicted killer nephew lack.*
Where have we NOT been honest?
At the parole hearing I stated that my nephew was a monster and was evil.
As published in the Argus Leader, Tuesday, July 15, 2014.
Under questioning from Nelson about his assaultive past, Ramos admitted to having beaten at least three women.
"Were you always drinking when these assaults occurred?" Nelson asked.
"No," Ramos said.
"You were just a pretty mean guy," Nelson said.
"I was a devil," Ramos said.
"Dangerous," Nelson said.
"Back then, I was, yes," Ramos said.
Kindly point to what you perceive as dishonest.
*When the parole board decides to release your nephew, I will not argue that point as I do not argue it now.*
Thank you.
grudznick
*Mr. Cruz. We will see you in 8 months when parole is denied again.*
How generous of you.
Hey, I pray you never suffer the same fate.
Bill Fleming/JeniW
I appreciate immensely your words of wisdom & direction.
We are working very closely with the SD Peace & Justice, whose president commented above, and other organizations that can help reintroduce my nephew back into society.
Letters of our plans for his future reintegration have been sent to the Board of Pardons & Paroles at the first parole board hearing.
Concerning his emotional state at the first hearing, he did not know what to expect and he was very nervous as I or you would have been.
*Good wishes to you Mr. Cruz. I hope your time spent here was meaningful.*
It is very meaningful and I thank you and the host of Madville Times, caheidelberger, very much for giving me this unique opportunity to explain what the mainstream media cannot fully do.
*I respect you for giving unconditional love to your nephew.*
The Bible calls it - 'agape love' - pure unconditional love for someone else - no strings attached.
You have it too Mr. Fleming.
Roger Cornelius
*Can you tell us about Debbie and her life, was she a good woman?*
I know next to nothing about Debbie's life. Yes, she was a good woman. She was helping to change my nephew's life around for the better.
*What did she do to deserve her fate and that of her child?*
Neither she nor their child did anything to deserve such a tragic ending and my nephew has stated numerous times that he wishes he could alter past events.
*Was Debbie employed or did she go to school?*
She was employed when they met, I don't know if she was employed when they were together. I don't know about school.
*What was her education and work experience?*
I don't know about her education. I don't know about her work experience.
*We heard a couple of references to her children, did you know them, Angelo?"
I do not know them but I know of them.
*Did you and your family console them at the time of Debbie's death?*
I tried to at the time of this tragedy. I spoke about it at the hearing.
*Where was Debbie born?
I don't know.
*Did you know her parents and other relatives, are they good people?*
I don't know her parents personally. Of course they are good people!
*What did Debbie do for fun and entertainment? Did she do arts and crafts, enjoy cooking for her family, or watching movies with them?*
Same answer as above, I don't know.
*What did Debbie do to earn her fate, was God mad at her that day and decided to end her life via her fiance?*
Same answer as above, she did NOTHING to earn her fate.
God is too wise to make a mistake and too loving to be unkind.
*What did Debbie do wrong?
Same as above: She did NOTHING wrong.
mike from iowa
*Mr Cruz,you are getting way out there suggesting that this crime wasn't heinous*
The crime was/is abhorrent, heinous, awful.
Please look at the full context of the response; it is relative to capital punishment and whether it reaches the level of people being executed for a crime where it was accidental and unintentional vs. a crime that was wholly premeditated.
I have been out of town for a few days, but am fascinated by the numerous posts in this thread. I may be too late, but I will give a few follow up comments in a few posts.
Jenny, I can tell you this - I am not the same person I was 20 years ago. Are you? Jim Peterson's comment is pretty informative on the changes that can happen in 20 years.
Craig, I think that when I described revenge I was also describing punishment - that is the essence of revenge. And when you say, "I'm simply not convinced he is a changed man," that is entirely within your prerogative. But I must ask, is this based on your emotional reaction to his heinous crime, or is there some evidence you can cite to convince you that he is not a changed man. As I said to Jenny, I am not the same person I was 20 years ago, are you? And it appears you and I agree on whether this is a political liability for Rounds.
Sibby, my apologies. I interpreted your theological arguments in various threads to support God's revenge on what you call apostates, hence my erroneous supposition. I think that your view of non-rehabilitation is likely shared many, but I fail to understand why, unless it is an emotional response to a terrible crime. And if there is a lack of evidence to show a lack of rehabilitation, then I think the true motive for challenging the commutation is a desire for more punishment, which seems to me to be revenge. And Sibby when you say, "I am born again. I used to suffer from the same New Age worldview that most of these people suffer from," doesn't that make you an apostate? And doesn't this theological change in your own life give you some insight into what changes others might be able to experience over 20 years?
SD teacher - exactly! So many folks base their opinions without any real knowledge about what has gone on in someone's life.
Angelo, perhaps I am not your best ally as I am an atheist and have no faith whatsoever in people who claim rehabilitation through Jesus. In fact, to me that is a red herring that creates significant doubt in my mind of the veracity of the claimed rehabilitation. I think that is one of the points Bill Fleming was trying to make to help your comments have more weight.
That said, I do have faith in mankind and I see rehabilitation evidenced by behavior rather than claim of religious redemption. What I have read about Mr. Ramos' behavior in prison helps me believe that he has changed from the man he was 20 years ago. As for your advocacy for your nephew, I agree that you might make more progress by following the suggestions of Bill Fleming and JeniW.
bearcreekbat
I hope that you have a good sense of humor. As I stated above, I too was an atheist for 32 years but found God sometime just before 9/11.
I will address your points tomorrow but for now I'd like to leave you with something to smile/laugh about.
Hope you like it.
The Atheist
As An Atheist Walked Through The Forest, He Smiled At The Beauty That Was All Around Him And Said, "What Natural Wonders The Powers Of Evolution Have Created."
Just Then He Heard A Rustling Near The River. He Went To Investigate And A Seven-Foot Tall Grizzly Bear Was Tearing Down The Path Towards Him. The Man Ran As Fast As He Could, And When He Got Up The Courage To Look Back, He Saw The Bear Was Catching Up Fast.
He Tried With All His Strength To Pick Up The Pace, But He Tripped And Crashed To The Ground. As He Tried To Get Up, The Bear Jumped On His Chest And Picked Up One Paw To Whack Him.
The Atheist Screamed, "OH MY GOD!!!"
Time Stopped!
The Bear Froze.
The Forest Was Silent.
Even The River Stopped Flowing!
As A Bright Light Shone Upon The Man, A Voice Boomed From The Heavens, "You Deny My Existence For All Of These Years, Teach Others I Do Not Exist And Even Credit Creation To A Cosmic Accident. Do You Expect Me To Help You Out Of This Predicament? Am I To Count You As A Believer?"
The Atheist Looked Directly Into The Light, "It Would Be Hypocritical Of Me To Suddenly Ask You To Treat Me As A Christian Now, But Perhaps - Could You Make The Bear A Christian?" "Very Well," The Voice Said.
The Light Went Out.
Time Continued.
The Sounds Of The Forest Resumed.
The River Was Flowing Once Again!
And Then The Bear Dropped Its Right Paw, Brought Both Paws Together, Bowed Its Head And Spoke: "Lord, For This Food Which I Am About To Receive, I Am Truly Thankful."
I know it's a joke Mr. Cruz, but it's also a very apt description on how and why mankind got religion in the first place. For more on this read 'Deadly Powers' by Paul Trout. Truly fascinating read.
http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/deadly-powers/
Even with the poor production quality of the Bosworth ad attacking Rounds, maybe Rick Weiland can use in his campaign. It shows even the tea party has serious questions about his abilities as a leader.
Angelo, you have a great sense of humor. Here is one for you:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
He said, "Like what?"
I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?"
He said, "Religious."
I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?"
He said, "Christian."
I said, "Me too!
Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist?
He said, "Baptist!"
I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?
He said, Baptist Church of God!"
I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!"
I said, "Me too!
Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!"
I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
Angelo, on a more serious note, what made you choose to be an atheist 32 years ago?
bearcreekbat
*Jenny, I can tell you this - I am not the same person I was 20 years ago. Are you?*
My utter frustration is that State Attorney Mark Vargo and Debbie's family have stated repeatedly the Joaquin Ramos is a threat and liar and the same person that he was 20 plus years ago.
Now, what I would like to know is HOW can they know this if they have NOT visited him in 20 plus years!
How can he possibly be a threat to them if he will be living in Florida, 1800 miles away?
According to them he is a liar because he does not answer in the way they want him to answer. Does that make him a liar? I think not.
Twenty plus years is a very long time.
Let's see. 20 years ago in 1994 I was an atheist. Today I am an Evangelical Christian.
Twenty years ago this country and this world was far different than what it is today, thanks to 9/11.
Twenty years ago State Attorney Mark Vargo was a Deputy State Attorney and now he is Pennington County State Attorney.
So, everyone HAS changed and everyone DOES change EXCEPT for . . . Joaquin Ramos. Very interesting!
I will have to look up this episode in the Twilite Zone where it would make a whole lot of sense.
The burden of proof is not with the victim's family. It is with the perpetrator of this heinous crime to prove he is not the same person. What if he gets paroled but can't leave the state. Who guarantees the victim's family safety?
bearcreekbat
*Angelo, perhaps I am not your best ally as I am an atheist and have no faith whatsoever in people who claim rehabilitation through Jesus. In fact, to me that is a red herring that creates significant doubt in my mind of the veracity of the claimed rehabilitation.*
Because I WAS an atheist I can relate to this and understand it MORE than you may think I can. (If I am wrong then I apologize)
How can you possibly understand manifested rehabilitation from a source you do not believe exists?
For me, the rehabilitation is not only more real but more permanent because it comes from God who works in a person from the inside out as opposed to how the world works rehabilitation, from the outside in, which invariably is doomed to fail, as we have witnessed with countless celebrities.
*I think that is one of the points Bill Fleming was trying to make to help your comments have more weight.*
To suggest that I drop that claim in order to appear more credible to the eyes of the world is to give my spiritual convictions absolutely no value.
*What I have read about Mr. Ramos' behavior in prison helps me believe that he has changed from the man he was 20 years ago.*
Thank you. I can tell he has changed because I have known him all of his life. I have seen the best of him. I have seen the worst of him. No different than what you see in your own relatives.
*As for your advocacy for your nephew, I agree that you might make more progress by following the suggestions of Bill Fleming and JeniW.*
I have stated above that those recommendations given by Bill Fleming and JeniW have been made and have been forwarded to the parole board.
Bill Fleming
*I know it's a joke Mr. Cruz, but it's also a very apt description on how and why mankind got religion in the first place.*
Did you know that it was the religious folks (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes) who were Jesus' greatest enemies?
Christianity is not about religion, it's about relationship.
Roger Cornelius
*Even with the poor production quality of the Bosworth ad attacking Rounds, maybe Rick Weiland can use in his campaign.*
If he does I will go after him to remove it as I did Bosworth.
bearcreekbat
*Angelo, on a more serious note, what made you choose to be an atheist 32 years ago?*
For the dumbest and most infantile reason.
I was a Catholic at the time. I fell in love with a girl who did not reciprocate. It was unrequited love.
I asked God to make her love me. She didn't. I turned my back on God.
I told you it was dumb.
"Did you know that it was the religious folks (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes) who were Jesus' greatest enemies?"
Yes, I did. Jesus was a revolutionary. That's the main reason I like him. But I'm not so sure he would like what St. Paul added to his ideas to turn them into a religion. I think I get what you mean about "relationship." Especially in terms of the "Love" commandments.
mike from iowa
*The burden of proof is not with the victim's family. It is with the perpetrator of this heinous crime to prove he is not the same person.*
That may be so but you can't prove to the family that Ramos has changed anymore than you can prove God to
bearcreekbat, who is an atheist.
*What if he gets paroled but can't leave the state.*
States have 'Interstate Compact' agreements between them and South Dakota would love to wring its hands of Joaquin Ramos.
*Who guarantees the victim's family safety?*
Who would guarantee HIS safety if he REMAINS in South Dakota?
He would live in Florida, NOT South Dakota.
Mr. Fleming
Are you and atheist?
bearcreekbat
I liked the joke but I didn't really understand the end.
Allow me to share another joke with you.
Put in in your files and share!
Acts 2:38
A Woman Surprised A Burglar In Her Kitchen.
Unarmed And Alone, All She Could Think To Do Was To Quote A Scripture, So She Screamed Out "Acts 2:38"
The Burglar Suddenly Froze.
Soon The Police Arrived, And They Were Amazed At How A Woman With No Weapon Could Do This!
The Officer Asked The Burglar, "What Was It About The Scripture That Had Such An Effect On You?"
He Said, "Scripture, What Scripture? I Thought She Said She Had An Ax And Two 38's"
Bill Fleming
*But I'm not so sure he would like what St. Paul added to his ideas to turn them into a religion.*
God, Jesus, Holy Spirit = Trinity = One and the same!
The Apostle Paul wrote under the 'inspiration' of the Holy Spirit. There is no disagreements between them.
I don't have to prove anything to anybody. With the history your nephew has,don't be surprised if not everybody accepts him or you at face value. In case you weren't aware,the both of you have an uphill battle ahead of you.
No, I'm not an atheist, Mr. Cruz. Nor am I a dualist. As I told you, I am a Catholic since my baptism in 5th grade. Before that I was a little Lutheran kid. There are some who might claim I am an atheist, or perhaps no longer Catholic, but I don't.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1032067/
There are plenty of disagreements between the teachings of Jesus and those of St. Paul, Mr. Cruz. Perhaps another time we could explore them. But I don't want to do that now. I don't think such discussion would be in any way helpful to you and your nephew's situation.
"The "Holy Trinity" .... "Vespasian - Titus - Domitian" .... All three became Emperors of Rome, and after Titus' death, Domitian constructed the "Arch of Titus": Arch of Titus in Rome was constructed in 82 AD by the Roman Emperor Domitian shortly after the death of his older brother Titus to commemorate Titus’ victory in the Sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD."
http://www.dailypaul.com/247330/the-roman-empire-and-the-catholic-church-are-about-to-fall-the-roman-conspiracy-to-create-jesus-christ-unveiled
p.s. St. Paul and The Holy Ghost are not the same. Not by a long shot.
mike from iowa
*I don't have to prove anything to anybody.*
I didn't mean YOU, I meant the 'collective you' - sorry for the confusion.
George W. Bush urged Rounds to run for Senate http://argusne.ws/SYYqPc next: relationship advice from Joaquin Ramos.
Mr. Fleming
Yes you did say you are a Catholic above.
I forgot, sorry.
My mind is going, and so is everything else at my age.
Mr. Fleming
*St. Paul and The Holy Ghost are not the same. Not by a long shot.*
I never implied that!
I said: The Apostle Paul wrote under the 'inspiration' of the Holy Spirit. There is no disagreements between them.
Meaning there is no disagreement within the Trinity.
Paul of Tarsus had a religious experience elicited by alcohol and opium resulting in temporal lobe epilepsy. Jesus Christ was created by the Romans.
Mr. Cruz: wrap things up here.
Angelo, I like your second joke even better. The end of my joke is based on the hatred that religious people often have for other religious people simply because they have slightly different beliefs, you know, kind of like the Sunnis and Shia in the mideast.
When you say you "turned [your] back on God" due to the unrequited love, are you saying you know longer believed God existed, or did you mean that you were angry that God allowed something bad to happen to you, so you stopped worshiping God?
I was raised, baptized, and confirmed in a Methodist church. After I reached my own age of reason in my mid-20's I studied philosophy and soon decided that I was a rather apathetic agnostic. I didn't know or care whether God actually existed. Later in life I decided to study religion in greater depth and spent several months studying my Grandfather's Bible from cover to cover, spending extra time on the phrases he underlined or highlighted. My study of the Bible turned me into an actual atheist when it comes to the God of the Bible. I have no particular reason to believe their are some other Gods, so I am currently a full fledged atheist. But here is the interesting part, I would be more than willing to change my views if I had any reason to learn new information providing evidence of some sort of deity, in contrast to many believers who will never change regardless of the evidence before them.
I'll post a second joke for you soon.
Angelo, here is a second try:
It's the second resurrection of Christ. Before the world e ends he wants to take in some fishing. So he gets his friend Moses and they head up to Minnesota to fish. They are about to rent a canoe when Moses says:
"Jesus, can't you still walk on water? Why not just walk out there?"
So Jesus takes his reel and tackle and steps onto the lake....and falls knee deep in water.
Moses says, "Well....maybe you need a head start or something, why not go to the end of the dock and try."
So Jesus takes his reel and tackle and steps off the end of the dock and falls up to his waist.
Moses says, " Well why not rent the boat, go out to the center of the lake and try there."
So they rent the boat and go to the middle of the lake, Jesus is about to step off and try again when...
Moses says, "Wait. Just to be safe, why not get yourself into the state of mind you were in the first time you did it."
So Jesus sets down, meditates for a few minutes, and finally he's all psyched up, and steps out of the canoe.... ..and precedes to drown.
So Moses does the water parting thing, and pulls Jesus up into the boat. Jesus is just beating himself up over this. He just doesn't see what's going wrong here. Moses just stares down at the bottom of the boat.
Suddenly, Moses says, "I got it! I know what's wrong! Did you have those holes in your feet last time?!?!"
larry kurtz
*Paul of Tarsus had a religious experience elicited by alcohol and opium resulting in temporal lobe epilepsy.
Mr. Cruz: wrap things up here.*
I will.
Stop drinking and stop smoking larry kurtz.
bearcreekbat
I liked the second joke better.
I liked this line: 'So Moses does the water parting thing'