Last updated on 2019.08.11
We now have charges in the January 24 incident in which drunk honyockers in a VIP box at a Rapid City Rush hockey game allegedly threw beer and racial insults at Indian kids from the American Horse School. Rapid City Police considered charges of assault, hate crime, and child abuse, but they now say the evidence uncovered by their month-long investigation only supports charges of disorderly conduct against Trace O'Connell of Philip.
American Horse School officials are not satisfied:
Some people at a meeting at American Horse School Wednesday say they were shocked when they heard only one misdemeanor charge was filed, against only one person.
School board member Justin Poor Bear says, "We feel there was injustice. Upset. Anger. A lot of anger. We feel like there was nothing done to help us."
...Thursday afternoon, we received a copy of a letter from Oglala Sioux Tribe president John Yellow Bird Steele to President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder asking for a Justice Department investigation into what the tribal president describes as "racial harassment" [Jack Caudill, "American Horse School Reacts to Charge," KEVN-TV, 2015.02.19].
After the charge and O'Connell's name were made public Wednesday, O'Connell received so many death threats that law enforcement moved the O'Connell family out of their home. So says Patrick Duffy, O'Connell's client, who says the hockey game incident has been (in the words of SDPB's Charles Michael Ray) "blown up in social media":
"My client didn't say anything racist. We're gonna find out when we go to trial what really happened. But my client and I apologize, really, I apologize to the children of the Lakota Nation for how they have been made to feel about this. I look upon them with nothing but respect as does my client, and he is really heartbroken over this" [Patrick Duffy, interview with Charles Michael Ray, "Disorderly Conduct Charge Angers Some Native Parents," SDPB Radio, 2015.02.19].
Duffy makes a similar claim in the Rapid City Journal:
There are two casualties in this case, Duffy, O'Connell's attorney, said: the truth and the students who attended the hockey game. The truth, he said, has been tarnished by hearsay that exploded on social media.
“The real casualty has been these children. They only know what they have been told has happened,” Duffy said. “Obviously, all of us in South Dakota need a good dose of truth before this case can possibly be laid to rest” [Andrea Cook, "City: Philip Man Charged with Disorderly Conduct in Rush Hockey Game Incident," Rapid City Journal, 2015.02.18].
Look out, fellow media: it sounds like Duffy sees daylight for his client in putting us on trial. That should make us nervous, because Duffy is a heck of a lawyer.
And just to make things interesting, you can't dismiss Duffy as some white apologist for racism. He has taken tough cases defending Indians in the past, like the October 2013 police tasering of a Rosebud Sioux child and the landmark 2004–2005 Bone Shirt v. Hazeltine case on Indian voting rights in South Dakota. Sure, Duffy is a lawyer, paid to provide the legal representation to which every citizen is entitled, but when Patrick Duffy says he and his client respect Indians, he's got serious credibility to back that claim up.
Throwing beer and racial insults at kids is not acceptable. Neither are death threats that force an accused man to move his family out of their home for their own safety. Trace O'Connell now faces the glare of publicity and accountability before the law before the crime of which he is accused. He also has one of the best defense attorneys a man could ask for in a case like this. Let's hear the evidence the witnesses, the police, and the defense can bring forward through the proper legal process to help us understand what happened.
So says Patrick Duffy, O'Connell's client, ????
The real casualty has been these children. They only know what they have been told has happened,” Duffy said. “
These children where there and experienced what happened. Why would they have to be told what happened? I'm missing something.
"They threw beer at us!"
"They threatened our lives!"
Competitive victimhood's race for the moral high ground makes me sick. Claiming you are a victim shouldn't give you free reign to "temporarily" ditch your morality. Sit tight, get the facts, and end the race to the bottom by refusing to participate.
There is evidently an undercurrent of racism in Rapid City that non-natives who don't live in Rapid City aren't totally aware of. Hopefully this incident will further an open dialogue between native and non-native people.
Interesting slight of hand by Duffy...when your client is essentially unsympathetic (b/c ya know, he poured beer on little kids), side step to the "Truth"!
To his claim that the kids don't know any better and wouldn't take having beer poured on them as simple tomfoolery vs conscious racist behavior, I'd respond with a line from Tupac..."They say my ghetto instrumental, detrimental to kids. As if they can't see the misery in which they live."
Come on Duffy, you can do better than victim-blaming.
Clever bit of lawyering by Duffy to turn his client into the victim. I assume the checks are good.
I guess the poor guy simply loves his country too much, eh Duffy? Have the children apologized yet?
The transcripts of some of the interviews are on the RCJs website. I would sugest that everyone reads those before jumping to conclusions. Ms. Means contradicts herself, and Mr Poorbear admits that he didnt see what actually happened.
It wont get to trial but it it does, look for Duffy to ask some questions that nobody here wants to hear the answers to.
Kids are kids no matter what race they are. What ever happen to turning the other cheek. I went to the RC website which I would encourage the other posters to do to and learn what happen.
I would like to see something substantial coming from the Duffy camp regarding Rounds and the EB-5, ole Duff has been pretty quiet on that front. A trial on this is what is needed to answer those question no one wants to hear the answers to.
Interesting that the RC Journal is now the voice of clear conscience. Seem like just a few weeks ago they clearly would not. Indeed kids will be kids, no matter what the age.
Mr Poor Bear sounds like a man afraid to talk to authorities. Maybe should have had a lawyer with him. OTOH, O'Connell didn't deny beer was "spilled" or words were spoken.
This Mr. Duffy fellow takes on cases that are insaner than most. He's got a fun hair cut but he's a conspiracy theorist.
This morning on the radio I heard where O'Connell plead not guilty. I thought yeah right! The kids were throwing beer on themselves. Also if O'Connell didn't do it, he was there and saw who did it. IF he is truly innocent he should name names.
Weird how this has turned. It appears there was a huge misunderstanding and Mr O'Connell should be nominated for Humanitarian-of-the Year.
We may never know "the truth." Firstly we all have a very different lens. Secondly with much of South Dakota watching and many around the nation it's difficult to believe the Rapid City police department would falsify results after an extensive investigation knowing they are under the microscope. Best thing would be for Holder to come in and give legitimacy to the findings or say differently. None of us should be afraid of the truth even if it doesn't fit our agenda.
Nothing short of a complete boycott of Rapid City businesses and institutions will reverse 130 years of race hatred, discrimination and repression.
This happened at a hockey game. Everybody (except, we presume, the kids from the rez) came drunk, and got drunker. As a friend of mine put it, "The fans at a Rush game are the intellectual anus of society." And, I think, he was trying to be kind.
Lar, it is a special hell you wallow in with your loathing of all things South Dakota yet you spend most of your waking hours reading news and bloggings that enrage you. You may continue.
grud: watching you self-immolate in a grand display of pique would be worth ten times the price of admission.
It would be a big tent, Mr. kurtz.
Here I'll cut and paste a few of my comments from over at War College. They weren't well received there at all.
The incident was only a symptom of a ongoing systemic problem. Some whites don’t seem to get it. Time to appoint something like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission the likes of which helped heal S Africa after years of the atrocities of apartheid. We establish a process that brings us together – we put the past on the table in all its ugly gore — we toss back and forth the present contentions and all this is essential to move into a amiable future together.
We have two very different cultures. One values money and the cultural commodity of the other is honor. Ever been to a ceremony with natives, they’ll honor people for an hour.
We have a Ferguson brewing here. Last month Rosebud declared war on Keystone. Last night RC police left a meeting fearing for their safety. Pine Ridge is calling tonight for a civil Rights Commission investigation and they’ve declared a state of emergency because of suicides.
And there is silence in Pierre.
I’m not suggesting we throw money or another program at a problem. My suggestion is we start showing we care. 92 suicide attempts on Pine Ridge in the last year . If those were Dakota Dunes stats we’d send the proverbial SD national guard.
Whether the incident in Rapid City was assault or simple assault or none of the above is not it what matter most today. When conditions are bone bone dry, even the slightest of sparks creates a wildfire. My point has to do with the conditions.
Over the years I’ve had many couples in marriage counseling and it’s so common to hear 50 things she needs to change while he is oblivious to the fact that he is quite the jerk himself. That is the comparison that comes to mind when I hear whites talk about those Indian problems.
And I’m suggesting the appointment of a truth and reconciliation commission. There have been 40 worldwide since Nelson Mandela created the first commission to deal with the sordid past of apartheid in South Africa. Last year we tried an economic development commission. The tribes didn’t even show up. The place to start is not with jobs and economic development — those are things whites value. When I first moved here I did a conference called “beyond charity” to do economic development work our reservations. We got a Denver car dealer to give us 50 Indian cars and we got some land and tried to open up Gabe’s Gas Guzzlers and employ natives. That and a variety of another experiences and experiments have led me to the conclusion that the answers don’t lie in material things, except perhaps land issues. More money would just go into a black hole. Don’t hear me saying I have the answers just that I have a sense of which direction to point. The Sioux were once a proud people and today their youth have lost hope. Our justice system is skewed against them, still.
Only one quibble, Rep. Hickey: the 'Sioux' are still a proud people.
People, irrational people especially, prefer to believe what they want to believe. We need to get as close to the truth as possible. Larry posting O'Connell's picture with a tweet saying he is racist is inflammatory and reckless.
Thomas Jefferson was inflammatory and reckless, so was Crazy Horse and Bill Janklow.
In the last month I've watched many on line videos about Pine Ridge. The vast majority of those (created by Natives themselves) have said the problems are significantly about unemployment and the lack of economic development.
Every problem is an opportunity: Statehood for the tribes and Mexico.
And corruption in the tribes, and alcoholism. This is coming from them.
And corruption in Pierre, and alcoholism. This is coming from them.
Those of you who want to make this a race war are just stupid. We're bringing in people from Africa some where to work in Huron while we have all these unemployed people in our own state. Some of you just refuse to look at the bigger picture.
Those of you who deny the existence of race war are just stupid. We're bringing in christian from Africa some where to work in Huron while we have all these unemployed white people in our own state. Earth haters just refuse to look at the bigger picture.
Are you suggesting the tribes annex Huron, Mr. Camper?
Are you suggesting Huroniockers make grud work, Mr. Camper?
You're totally missing the importance of stability.
You're totally the importance of revolution.
Philip is sovereign citizen capital of South Dakota: Bircher Central.
The lawyer starting out saying the kids only know what they were told is the beginning of destroying the truth. He thinks his past history of being paid by the Natives will give him credibility but immediately destroys his own credibility. Some lawyers, including the one for Trayvon, seem to think that discrediting the brain of the citizen as to assume that the lawyers are the only ones that can see truth is just a psychological method of making everyone think there is a lot they do not know. With thousands of people there, he thinks that he will know truth from lies better than those who were there. Anything less than the truth will just add to a mountain of facts that the Natives have that prove racism. Smooth talking lawyers will not change the truth to any Native or anyone else that was there.
Bad lawyers think that ending freedom of the press will make their version of the truth look better.
Pat Duffy is anything but a bad lawyer: O'Connell had help selecting him for representation. The why is more intriguing.
$20 says it's some Irish thing.
Watching Protestant Steve Hickey and Holy Roman Kiddie Diddler
ToryTroy over at DWC playing religionist tiddlywinks over the entrenched racism in Rapid City a study in the Discovery Doctrine and Manifest Destiny: pathetic really.
The last intelligent remark I've read in this thread was Rep Hickey's. I remember Gov Mickelson and the 'Year of Reconciliation' he proclaimed upon his inauguration. Things improved - a little - but not for long. The next Gov we elected was that Janklow guy (again). We haven't come close to recovering.
I'm beginning to think House Dist 9 (Hawks and Hickey) is the center of wisdom in our legislature - if not the whole state.
I've been following the comment sections on the Journal websites relating to this story, most of my comments are not posted yet anonymous cowards are permitted to blatantly display their hatred with self-righteousness and the perpetuating of racial stereotypes.
It is difficult for me to measure my owns words and comments about the results of the investigation; they range from indignation, insulting, injustice, and hatred.
According to the results of this investigation the incident we have all been ranting about did not happen at all, Mr. Duffy tells us that it was only an incident of "spilled" beer and that O'Connell isn't a racist.
The Rapid City Police Department tells us this was only an incident that required only a disorderly conduct charge.
Does the truth lie somewhere in between or has it gotten lost forever to racial tensions?
I have absolutely no reason to believe the Rapid City Police Department and even less reason to believe Patrick Duffy, he is being played by O'Connell and doesn't even know it.
Duffy has lost Natives respect by taking this case, the Natives are restless, Pat.
When this case first hit the news, I told fellow tribal members not to expect too much or anything at all coming from it. They answered me by saying this time there was evidence and a lot of it. I reminded them this is South Dakota, Rapid City South Dakota don't expect anything.
There are times in my life I hate being right, this is one of them. Experience told me that public opinion would out-weigh facts, evidence can be minimized to the point that it disappears and become moot. We have seen it happen time and again over generations.
Talks of reconciliation, truth, mediation, etc. are out the window for now, Rapid City has told the American Horse 57 they don't matter and unfortunately many of those students believe it.
I live in Rapid City and the last few days while out on errands and doctor appointments the tension could be cut with a knife. Apprehension when interacting with whites is a challenge, you don't know what you will get by saying "hello".
Rapid City and Patrick Duffy have sacrificed an awful in defense of a jerk or jerks from Phillip.
Something did happen at that hockey game, some talk nobly about finding and reporting the truth, how can they when truth in a white world is from their perspective, not mine.
Thank you for you kind words of support and defense of the Sioux, there are many good white people in the state and I have been fortunate to know and communicate with them.
I have refused to read anything over at the Dump Site, and it is just as well, I've probably heard their racist comments already, it is remarkable how predictable racists are.
The problem with human relation boards, race relation committees, or truth squads is that you will never see those that need educating at one. They choose to live in that sheltered little world of self-righteousness and blissful ignorance and stupidity.
Curt: reconciliation is a dish best served cold.
Face it, Duffy is only in it for the moolah. I was hoping that this would not be the case but it seems like the left was played by Duffy and his grandstanding regarding the EB-5 and Rounds. Much talk and little, if any, action. I hope that this goes further to a higher court. So why was this O' Something in the booth to begin with? Doesn't the civic center have rules regarding serving intoxicated people more alcohol? Taxpayers stand to loose big time if one of this drunks kills someone on the highway.
I am amazed by the number of people that know exactly what happened but were not on scene to witness the event. Too many people have forgotten that in the United States you are innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent. We can be a nation of laws or we can easily become a nation ruled by emotion and group emotions like a third world nation. The last few years have convinced me we are the downward slide towards emotions trump rule of law. Hope you got a firm hold cause the ride is fast and rough.
In a court of law people are innocent until proven guilty, in the court of public opinion we are free express our opinions.
I have heard your gospel repeated endlessly during this past month and your comment is a predictable, defenders of racism use it constantly.
Are you so naïve that you think this nation of laws are not motivated by emotions or by groups of emotions? I don't where you've been but you can take any hot topic of the day and it is legislated to death by politicians. Take a topic, or law and explain to me how it is not emotional. Abortion, 2nd Amendment, Freedom of Speech, murder, rape, abuse and assault of any kind?
To pretend that it is not emotional is to be a fool.
You sir are a joke. You decide who I am and what I am with no knowledge of fact, just as you do with the Rapid City incident.
I quit posting here because of posters like you.You don't want to wait for the truth because the truth might not reflect what you want to believe. In the past you have claimed to have evidence of civil rights violations but wanted it handled at the local level, now you don't trust the local level. Respond any way you want with the knowledge that thi is my last post.
For someone who has quit posting, you seem kind of prolific in not posting.
Right wing racism is certainly nothing new here in South Dakota. As was posted earlier, we know of at least 3 hate groups here. This kind of action fits like a glove to that sort of behavior. http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/politics/terror-threat-homeland-security/
I'll take being called a joke by an idiot as a compliment, Mr. Thompson and furthers my opinion of your marginal intelligence.
Would someone please point out to me where I have claimed to have any evidence of civil rights violations, I have commented according to information provided by the media.
It is great that you don't post here anymore, save that crap for the racist over on the Powers Dump Site, they probably adore you over there.
It is true I don't know you Mr. Thompson, but I know dozens just like you that repeat yourselves enough to create your own echo chamber.
Good riddance, I'll hold you at your word that your 23:17 post was your last.
After reading the documents posted on the RCJ, website, it sounds like the beer was spilled/dumped following a third goal being scored in the game. Whether the drink was accidentally spilled or intentionally dumped seems to be one key factor. Can we take a step back and consider that perhaps O'Connell inadvertently spilled the drink while doing something like jumping up to celebrate a goal? If that is the case, I would consider that a mitigating factor. Conversely, if the act was intentional, it would be an aggravating circumstance, and the charges should reflect that (assuming corroborating evidence exists). Unfortunately, I have not seen definitive evidence to support either explanation. Equally unfortunate, if the act was intentional but no evidence could be found during the investigation, then a heinous act cannot ethically be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
If racist remarks were said, that is completely separate from the beverage being spilled. Unfortunately, there are contradictory accounts concerning that as well. Again, it is too bad there is no definitive evidence (e.g., a recording of the racists taunts) to negate any doubts.
As for Mr. Duffy's character, I have never met the man, but when he says that the children only know what they are being told, is there a chance that what he means is that a limited number of students had the beer spilled on them and heard the racist taunts, but the rest of the group learned about it from peers, chaperones, et al.?
Regardless, I am ashamed to admit that some of my fellow South Dakotans are racist. Heck, I have my own prejudices, but I hope that the fact that I have a minuscule Sioux blood quantum will not prevent Native Americans/American Indians from allowing me the privilege of working together with them to improve the racial environment here in SD and elsewhere.
In the immortal words of Lawrence Eagleburger,deceased, a former underling in the dumbass dubya regime on WMDs in Iraq after we invaded-If we don't find weapons of mass destruction we will have egg on our face.
Not sure about egg,but they have plenty of innocent blood on their hands and heads.
I don't know any of the parties involved. Duffy may very well be a rilly good defense lawyer,but a defense lawyer's only concern is getting his client off whatever charge has been filed.
You read about the best defense attorneys and they appear to have no scruples bending the truth or smearing their adversaries to ensure their client skates. Not suggesting-just saying.
Jumping to conclusions is a sad part of human nature because we are often wrong. We all prefer to believe what fits our prejudices, but that's why we have law and order rather than vigilantism. This hasn't been fair for those convicted by public opinion via social media. Roger Cornelius admitted (actually proclaimed without shame) he wanted to do so. If a person refuses to let the evidence speak it says much more about that person than this particular case.
Roger's opinions notwithstanding it is a fact that Rapid City has been a racist hole for 120 years.
This is the here and now Larry. What actually happened and did the police investigate properly. With so many of us watching it's hard to believe they would be protecting someone. In fact it would have been easier for them to hang someone out to dry. Bring in the Feds and give it additional credibility.
Granted a sane person should take "go f--- yourself" as a compliment considering Larry as the source, but this is also the reason people have stopped posting thoughtful comments that don't fit the rigid narrative of constant outrage so much enjoyed by those who post here. Get some therapy while there's still time.
So it's probably too late to advocate interpreting "gfy" as "good for you"?
Yes, it's too late, but funny. I've read Larry's posts for 7 or 8 years so I'm not jumping to conclusions.
Cartoon for happy camper-
Have not seen it mentioned on any threads; what is the status of the Chaperone who admitted to shouting foul language in front of the school children and other children at the game?
I have spent a reasonable, to some, amount of time in crowd events where there is drinking. I have done and have seen these drinks spilled inadvertently. I also have apologized profusely at doing so and for the most part, have seen others do the same regardless of who it was spilled upon. Even if you are drinking, an apology at the time of the incident, makes things go away. These were children that this happened to and this man who was charged, is an adult that must have had something to do with the bar industry or he would not have been there in the first place. As such, he clearly would know bar etiquette and how to diffuse a situation regarding the supposedly accidental spilling of the beer. Lets hope that the federal probe will put answers to the questions, find justice on those that were hurt emotionally, the children.
I, for one, think that the avenue that Duffy is taking, is just more bluffing. I seem to remember a press conference that Duffy did during the election regarding the EB-5 and Mike Rounds. Mike Rounds is the senator in Washington and Duffy, well Duffy is pretty damn quite about that whole charade.
Thanks for the laugh Mike but as an atheist who voted for Obama I'm a skeptic of faith and prefer the facts. For a rounded view of Islamic radicalism and why we should fear it: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
christians have killed more in the name of their god than all other religionist cults combined.
The Christian Terrorist Movement No One Wants To Talk About
It seems interesting that no one has mentioned the statements from the police interview of the chaperone about the actions of the men in the booth before the beer was thrown or spilled on the young girls and their chaperone.
These men were said to be in their 30's or 40's, with one possibly in his 20's. They are alleged to have initiated conversations with 8th grade Native girls they did not know.
Why would these older adult men decide to try to have a conversation with any 8th grade girls they did not know? What would you tell your 8th grade daughter to do or say if 2 or 3 adult strangers attempted to engage her in a conversation? Would you encourage your daughters to talk to these strange men, answer their questions and trust them? Or would you prefer to have your daughter hang out with kids near to her own age?
As I read the interview it appears the kids' chaperone thought it to be inappropriate for these young 8th grade girls to be talking with the adult men in the booth and tried to shut down this interaction. The trouble from these adult men, and the beer hotting the girls and the chaperone, apparently occurred shortly after the chaperone told the girls to stop talking to these men.
Why don't you just move to Syria Larry so you can be around others who despise all things America just as much as you do. Then you could really rejoice in your hate. It brings wretched souls together like nothing else, doesn't it Larry?
HC: you are 1/50 correct as usual. While i loathe my home state i love America.
Happy, are you saying it is wrong to despise the violent acts of American Christians described in the links that larry posted?
Haven't you learned by now that Republican extremist think you should get in line and accept American values and laws without doubting them. Republican patriots believe Americans have a right to dissent, I think it is called Freedom of Speech.
And of course Happy Camper guy once again uses the trite and overly used, "if you don't like it here, move", in your case move to Syria. Camper guy apparently doesn't believe Americans have a right to choose wherever they want to live.
But wherever you live, don't criticize South Dakota or America.
Re: 'barry freed' @ time stamp 10:01 ... Hey - you're right! Good point! We shouldn't prosecute (or persecute?) those poor drunks in the luxury suite. Let's nail Mr Poor Bear for coming to the defense of those he was chaperoning.
Wingnuts should all move to Texas where the jobs are plentiful and they re-write US history to suit their biblical fantasies of how the US should have been.
And you can carry guns into the statehouse,but not tampons. They could be used as missiles to throw at idiot wingnut pols. Guns are just to make women believe guys are hung like horses.
Lar loathes South Dakota but he is immersed in a mind melt every waking minute about our fine garden spot amongst the barren prairie.
They were children, for godsakes, poor children! They were excited to be in the big town and seeing a hockey game! Did you ever think that (if it was true they didn't stand still for the Anthem) maybe they were just excited and couldn't sit still and this very well could have been the first time many of them had gotten to do something that exciting? It's really nobody's business if you choose to stand still for the National Anthem or not. When I was growing up in the middle of nowhere going to the big towns of Rapid and Sioux Falls was a big deal for me also, so put yourselves in the eyes of a poor kid from the reservation and the excitement of seeing all that ice and pro players playing hockey. As always, drunks ruin it.
Funny. I'm gay, atheist, and a registered Democrat but get labeled a Republican. Too many posters here simply have closed minds. Regarding this incident they assumed they knew from day one. Lacking the ability to consider is dangerous as a juror, a voter, and makes them very uninteresting people. There's a clique of posters here who are relevant to nothing greater than sustaining each others beliefs. That's pathetic from people who think of themselves as liberal or progressive yet can't look beyond their own prejudices.
and we are happy not to have to listen to someone's ideas of why we can't win elections if we don't become the enemy. I'm not gay,but I'm positively giddy at the thought of fauxknee libs spouting off on here about us progressives. Your advice is worth what it costs,friend.
When there are children involved, the humane instinct is to be on the side of the children. Come on, HC. These are disadvantage children, I would have been happy to see a poor school be able to come and enjoy a day of hockey in the big city.
Too many times, all of us have witnessed a party or a bar where drinking got out of hand. Heavy drinkers need to learn how to behave and please, put your drinks in a place where they won't accidentally spill onto someone else or hold onto them!
mike from iowa, that was a zinger. HC is only to happy to toss in the ole gay thing, like it means something. Roll that up with being a Democrat and that means what? Hell, I am heterosexual and an Independent, for anyone who cares.
Now, lets stay on the topic of who this incident really hurt, the children. Bearcreekbat brings up a very good point about these drinking adults trying to pick up these young grade school girls. I am very sure that adult men do not try to score with Eighth grade girls in Philip so why would they do so in Rapid City? There is only one reason for that, these were Native girls. The drunks got shamed and then, well we will have to see what the Feds come up with as it is clear the disorderly conduct will probably not be tried in Rapid City. Child abuse should also be figured into this equation as that is what it was.
Happy Camper, I double checked but did not find any posts claiming that "the Rapid City police department would falsify results" as you argued about at 18:39. I also checked and couldn't find any comment calling you a "Republican." I saw that Roger made a general comment about certain Republican extremist attitudes challenging the right to dissent, but he did not explicitly include you in that paragraph. In the next paragraph, however, he did criticize your comment telling larry to move away as "trite and overly used," but he did not attribute that overused trite comment to any party, religion, sexual orientation or political philosophy.
I also looked for the too many posters who you said "have closed minds." I found that most posters have opinions that they express, including some with strong opinions, but I saw no evidence of "closed minds." Instead, in most cases the posters I read seemed to encourage and enjoy debating with the various viewpoints expressed by others. And what is it that you think they lack "the ability to consider?" I reread your comments and found no proposition from you that had not been considered in the various comments, with the possible exception of your police report falsification comment, which seems to be yours and yours alone.
I understand your dismay at larry for his gfy comment, but how is it any better for you to tell him to leave his home, or to call Madville posters "a clique of posters here who are relevant to nothing greater than sustaining each others beliefs" and then call them "pathetic" and "can't look beyond their own prejudices," merely because you apparently disagree with the viewpoints they express?
If you really are an atheist perhaps you will want to reconsider your comments. Most atheists try to treat each human being with respect and dignity, even if we object to hurtful acts by those humans, especially when such hurtful behavior is justified by various religious edicts.
And larry, please don't move to Syria. We need your thoughtful comments and links, even if you sometimes get a bit excited!
Thanks, bat: that move to Syria will have to wait until Wall freezes over. Prayers for rain all around here. You?
Oh please. When I think of Democrats who have a desire to be more fair (not biased) the comments here are an embarrassment. Cory's blog attracts many Democrats for news and interesting stories, but there's no longer serious meaningful exchange as took place in the past. Maybe that's fine, but I've seen posters with differing views needlessly attacked by a tag team of infants who must feel they are right. Ten or 15 of you can post similar ideas and think you're somehow winning but you're not gonna get anyone elected in this state. The majority don't believe in your views however much you reinforce them amongst yourselves. Mostly I see people here who just need to grow up and deal with reality. Moderate people tell me they won't come here because it's "too radical" which I attribute to your diatribe not the content. If Larry is so great go spend a little time on his blog. Nobody else does.
i quit going to any to any event where any type of booze, food, or drinks was sold, because I got tired of having stuff spilled down my back, either by people who had consumed too much alcohol or were just plain clumsy. I haven't been to any type of even since the early 90s. If people can't enjoy themselves for a couple hours without eating or drinking they seem to have a problem.
When Larry Kurtz posted a picture calling them a racist with no lawful reason for doing so I have no further respect for him regardless of the years of sometimes humorous irreverence. None of you should either if you really care about right and wrong, but you don't really. He's a thoughtful guy. No, he's many other things.
While everyone is in the confessing mood,HC is here as gawd's gift to poor,weak minded liberals who can't figure out anything for themselves. HC sounds like DD and then us fools get a double dip of advice no one asked for,at least as near as I can tell. I say post away. I don't plan on,don't need to listen to,or ask for your winning plans for Dems in the near or distant future. Since you aren't being paid the compliments you seem to feel entitled to.
Happy, just curious - is your last post addressing my comment, or merely a general statement of your opinion about the quality and thinking of the people who write comments on Cory's blog? I couldn't quite tell, as you did not respond to any of the matters I raised, other then some generalizations about comments here, but without any meaningful factual support. Perhaps your comment would have more effect if you could support it with some factual examples, as I tried to do when responding to you.
And you again resort to the name-calling - "infants." You seem awfully angry about something. Angry diatribes are very hard for anyone, especially me, to follow and often contain unfortunate statements that are later regretted. If anything I said induced such anger on your part, my sincere apologies to you.
And if your last post was intended as a response to mine, which is not clear to me, I should let you know that I am a registered Republican and have been such for nearly 40 years. That said, I try to think for myself, with the goal of supporting public policies that help rather harm or discriminate against others, hence I do not accept in full the political platforms from any political party. Rather, I try to evaluate each person and situation on its own merits. Anyway, hang in there and try to be a little more empathetic with the commentors here. Most appear to be good people who also care about helping fellow humans, even more than winning elections. Calming down and trying to be empathetic when reading comments can reduce angry reactions and help with one's blood pressure and overall happiness.
A month long police department investigation doesn't mean anything? If you don't believe the results then they were falsified. If you do believe them then the situation was exaggerated as the first school representative stated.
My reference to being gay has a point as maybe I'm a minority in some ways. I've grown up with gay friends who believed that everything that didn't go right for them was a result of discrimination when that just wasn't true. Their state of mind was victimhood and that's all they saw all around them, so I've learned to be skeptical about allegations rather than just embrace them.
Think about the facts, not the emotion.
ok, now i get it: happy camper = gay squatter, right?
It isn't just this one incident. You don't sort through a century or more of racial acts in a month.The perpetrator admitted beer was spilled and words were spoken and yet plead not guilty. I do not have to take at face value,what people with a history of racial events behind them,say are undisputed facts. That is what a court is to determine. The defense lawyer stated the kids were saying what they heard,not what they experienced. I think reasonable people can agree to disagree on what the facts are. Not saying HC or I are reasonable people.
As far as what I have said about this case, it will have no bearing on any trial. You are free to agree or disagree or argue about this,just get off your high horse because you aren't impressing me in the least. Frankly you are starting to sound like you are the victim.
HC, now you are cooking - I fully agree: "Think about the facts, not the emotion." Hence dump the angry responses and name calling and focus on the facts, while giving other posters the benefit of the doubt!
What are the specific results of the police investigation that you are referring to that were not falsified?
Is it that Mr. Trace O'Connell of Philip and his adult companions decided to try to engage 13 and 14 year old Native girls in conversations for some reason, rather than just talk with the other adults in the skybox? Or do you think that was a fabrication?
Are you contending no beer hit the girls and Ms. Means contrary to what the police reported that O'Connell said?
Or are you arguing that the beer on the girls was an accident and unrelated to Ms. Means telling them not to respond to the entreaties from these strange adult men drinking beer in the skybox?
Are you contending that the investigation revealed that the adults in the skybox did not make any statements about the "reservation" or statements telling the children to go back to the reservation? If so, can you direct me to that part of the investigative conclusion?
Thanks for you thoughts on these questions!
Thoughtful Lar? Yes. Les is more!
I have only read the police statements, not the interviews.
My blood pressure was up because I saw so much prejudgement (which I have learned not to believe). Weeks ago Roger C. said in the RCJ he wanted to convict these people in the court of public opinion. That's just wrong. And the commenters here have by and large been condemning from the beginning rather than be willing to wait for the outcome of the investigation. It's now done and the results I've read indicate no racism.
You can't say anything to kids now? What was said? Means said no one has ever talked to us before. Like that's a good thing? It was a very strange statement.
Didn't they say the beer was spilled after a score and not intentional? That's what I read. Are you saying differently?
Didn't only Means say she heard go back to the res and Poor Bear admitted he was only repeating things he had heard? Others were unsure.
So BCB, if you know specific references then you'll have to link to them. I'll have to read them myself. But still, are you doubting the work of the Rapid City Police Department? You certainly seem to be, even if in a professional sort of way.
One more thing: I was trying to say that if I'm in a minority because I'm gay is not an issue for me, but when I was younger my fellow gay friends saw discrimination where it didn't exist. Sure it did sometimes, but they saw it when it wasn't true. It's just not always true.
So, what do you think about the drunk adults trying to score on the grade school girls HC? That is the question that bearcreekbat had asked you about. You go down the rabbit trail of being gay, who gives a shit about that? Certainly not most of us here. You wanted this discussion, the question is still in your court, please proceed.
HC, you quote me as saying that I want to convict this Phillip guy in the court of opinion, I don't recall saying anything of that nature at all, I challenge you to find the exact quote.
What I have said repeatedly when someone posts that we want to convict the guy or that people are innocent until proven guilty is that the Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a legal qualification, whereas guilty in the court of public opinion is stating an opinion and thus Freedom of Speech.
In our daily world we express opinions all the time without necessarily knowing the full story, so why do you choose to place limitations on opinions in this particular incident?
This is the first time, on this blog, that I've heard suggestive remarks were made to young girls. In the article I read quoting Means she didn't say that or imply that so if you know differently you'll have to link to a reliable source. She said no one had ever talked to us before. Really, so it's wrong to talk to Native Americans?
And right now I'm claiming my own gay minority status to make a point: I've seen gay people insist on discrimination that simply didn't happen. Just because someone claims discrimination, or even feels it, doesn't make it so. Some people have a victim mentality or a political agenda.
Maybe there is still more that needs to come out and the best thing would be for the Feds to either review the case or do their own investigation. Fine. Then trust the facts. Right?
No, that is exactly what you said Roger. Now you want to appear moderate. gfy
No Happy, I don't want to appear moderate, I want you to provide the exact quote and source, provide it or knock it off.
larry-thx 4 thinkprogress cite. the story linked to 80s denver KOA's talk show execution-style murder of jewish lawyer/recovering alcoholic alan berg by a christian religious extremist who just died in prison. Living in Denver then and again 20 years later, i was deeply effected by that crime and had never heard its resolution.
in a nation where George Washington owned 299 slaves and relentlessly pursued "his" escaped 300th for years (the 2d amend origin is in part tracking down escaped slaves);
in a world where a black president is castigated for his hawaiian birth of a muslim father and white christian mother and, where years later his wife is spurned by Saudi royalty;
where republican scorched earth obstruction has ground the middle class to a halt and made the top .01 % owners of most of the world's assets;
and where SD elected officials defy wage initiatives, brag and attempt to legitimate concealed carry in our capitol, refuse ethics laws, flaunt conflict of interest laws and fraud "investigations" concerning $500 to a billion asian dollars for green cards;
and where the "Allen 57" are openly run out of a pro-hockey game under suspiciously racist circumstances, enabled by the local newspaper;
and larry, gdi, are you saying hc has 1/50th blood quantum, AND he/she is an athiest, gay/lesbian, stupid obama-lover?
chill camper :) are you finally taking on kurtz after 7-8 years? p.s. since you are in the know, does law and order work? stability? for everyone? oh, "facts" are kinda of a legal fiction. registered democrat, too, but yer daddy's a cop? i would NOT find it funny to be confused with a republican. (sorry bcb)
grudz, given your posts of the last few years i read, nobody here dislikes SD particularly, but racists, yes, most of us do.
this has been like shootin' ducks up' of a pond.
" No Happy, I don't want to appear moderate, I want you to provide the exact quote and source, provide it or knock it off."
Roger that is what you commented in the RCJ brfore they deleted your post. Now your trying to convince everyone here that you didnt even say it?
Sorry, my last comment went stupidly over the line though Roger did say that and Bill seems to remember. I've been poking because I saw a willingness to jump to conclusions and fan flames which is bad for everybody. Have a nice day.
If what Mr. Cornelius is saying is that 'social' justice is different than 'legal' justice, I'd be hard pressed to disagree with him. There is a great examination of this truth in Jared Diamond's book 'The World Until Yesterday' wherein the examines the differences in conflict resolution between traditional societies and contemporary ones.
I suspect that almost everyone here recognizes the social injustice that is daily present in white/Indian relations in South Dakota, and wants to do something to rectify it. Cases like the Hockey incident become focal points, and highly symbolic, but at the same time, legal justice in one particular case will never yield the necessary social justice needed to satisfy the pent up social demand, and we would be foolish to expect it to.
If that's what Roger is saying, I agree with him.
Rapid City is where racists go to die.
Over at DWC Fleming lauds a seemingly respectful discussion between two religionist earth haters then comes to Madville and plays apologist: pathetic really.
There is no dissonance between my position from one venue to another Kurtz. If you would care to discuss why you think there is, have at it. But the word 'pathetic' doesn't even come close to intellectual rigor. Up your game or gfy.:-)
Cartoonists Marty Two Bulls and Ricardo Caté are lampooning Rapid City's culture of racism mercilessly in their work:
larry, can I assume your constant one liners about Rapid City and racists mean you believe everybody that lives in Rapid City is a racist? The constant barrage of one liners about this and other things really serve no useful purpose. If you expect for people to sit here and argue the purity of Rapid City, or most other communities in this country, I'm not going to do it. But for you to sit and continue to throw gas on the fire is just as bad as what happens here. I agree with your position on many subjects, this isn't one of them.
I think we could argue that labeling all of Rapid "racists" is as counterproductive as O'Connell's actions (if they were advertent, and if he made racist taunts at the children). In order to ameliorate, or at least reduce racism, we will need all of the allies we can get, including those from locales like Rapid. In fact, I would think establishing coalitions in places like Rapid would be a top priority, if it is a local "ground zero" for racism, because those are the places that require the most action.
I have been troubled by some of the statements made in this forum regarding things like grown men interacting with the students. I mentored students that were the American Horse students' ages and took them to events like hockey games. I would hope that such conduct is not viewed as criminal, lewd, or worthy of ill repute. Again, there are various perspectives on this issue, and I concede that if drunk, or even sober adults for that matter, were flirting with students, it is appalling. However, maybe they were just trying to have a conversation. Ideally, the adults should have asked the chaperones for permission, but maybe the other fans thought that a simple conversation was innocent enough (assuming it was just a basic Q&A between the adults and students).
O'Connell does not seem like the type of person I would want to spend time with (if the accusations are true), but that does not mean that he should be condemned without objective evidence. I am not saying that the chaperones are not trustworthy. What I am saying is that sometimes actions are misunderstood and misconstrued, and the evidence that is publicly available on sites like the RCJ illuminates contradictory testimony even among the chaperones.
Have you been reading through the comments at the RCJ since it went online back in 2000 or so, Tim? Pretty scary stuff in there.
I know Larry, but they are always the same 15 or 20 coming up with that crap. I wouldn't dream of trying to make the argument that there aren't problems here, there are and maybe more than most places, but there are also a lot of people here trying to make a difference and to just toss us all into a big vat and wait for the supervolcano is counter productive. That's all I'm saying.
Tim, northern New Mexico lives under threat of an extinction level event from the Valles Caldera even as it is being considered by some as a power source just like the Yellowstone supervolcano is.
Rapid City has nothing on Gallup,btw:
Well Larry, for what it is worth, at least you got them so pissed off they are eating themselves. A few shootings here and there along with some beer spills (happened more than once) in the civic center recently, and now you are throwing gas on the fire. Good for you. Exposure to racism is the heat that is needed to end this facade. That 15 or 20 commenters is an incredible amount of hate for such a small venue as the RCJ. Safe to say that racial prejudice is alive and doing quite well in Rapid City and the place even has a registered hate group, doesn't get much better than that as proof of the gas you are pouring. Flame on dude.
can you imagine that cartoon in rapid city journal? never in a million years (or at least 150 years). in the new york times? yes, hopefully tomorrow
There are problems all over this country sad to say, in this day and age one would think society would be smart and mature enough to move on from bullshit like racism, it just shows we have a very long way to go.
Poking at super volcanoes, what could possibly go wrong?
leslie, I would love to see that cartoon in the RCJ, won't happen.
Jerry, riots and dead people laying in the streets would make you happy? RCPD and the National Guard are much better armed, I'm pretty sure it's not hard to figure out what the results would be.
The overarching theme in this thread can perhaps best be illustrated by the exchange between Mr. Thompson and Mr. Cornelius, two reasonable men capable of enlightened discourse reduced to namecalling by the emotional heat around the issue, and as a result failing spectacularly to find the common ground they both so genuinely and hopefully seek.
Two men of goodwill at loggerheads against a seemingly insurmountable social juggernaut, looking to our legal system for relief, even as they both know full well there's really no solution to be found there because, as is so often noted with seeming pride, 'we are a nation of laws, not of men' when in fact 'a nation of men' is what we truly are.
In the end, we agree to trust our courts to resolve the acute problems (symptoms), even as we recognize that the cure is not to be found there, but rather in every human heart and mind.
Jerry, Rapid City's cash is held by members of the same Holy Roman Kiddie Diddlers who have lobbied the legislature to gag those seeking justice for crimes committed by its clergy. My anger is more aimed at the Jeremiah Murphys who make their livings by covering up truth in the name of their god.
One of the reasons we have racism is because our wages stink. We are getting the same shitty wages for decades and the pain and frustrations we all have, requires someone to blame. We choose to blame that inequality along the racial lines as that is an easy thing to do, skin color is obvious. Next we look to the disabled and the fact the wealthy make dangerous claims about them getting something nothing for being injured or sick. The wealthy of course, do not have to worry themselves about disability as they have control of the treasury so Social Security and disability are not even a consideration for them, they don't need it and neither should the rest. They have their own markets and do not need to get to park closer to the mecca of our meager spending choices. The ones in power have already figured out that women in the workplace should be paid much less than men and that scares the hell out of women because they do not want to loose the meager wages they now receive. When all else fails, it must be God's fault, but not your perceived God, the other guys. One of these days, we are gonna figure it out that the ones who are causing all of the mischief are in power. Then the race war will not be with the races, but in those who have promoted the hate in the first place. The bigger the gap in equality, the more light will be shown on who is causing the divide. Racism is not so much of a cultural thing, it is economic one.
LNI vows to stay in Rapid City
millionairs' last day to pay into SOCIAL SECURITY 2.12.15. you and me...naw!!!!
Jerry our local Nam hero who claims blood on the battlefield would like to see the same on the streets of RC. He also adds they were trying to pick up 8th grade girls as though he was there witnessing. Roger C pumps social violence and denies, I saw his words amongst the hundreds of Journal comments. Bear wakes from a seven year nap and finds a thoughtful Kurse. Tim with his usual anger and hate doesn't like Larry calling all RC folks racist but speaks of hunting Pubs instead of lion on another site hosted by his nemesis Larry. leslie dribbles on with his profanity and chopped attempts at the English language. And you say Joseph gets out of hand, Flemming?
I had beer spilled on me at a Twins game thirty years back and apologies are not enough. I passed on the Native News articles. But when you get testimony such as Means, everyone here knows the only way to get a win is to get a kill.
I guess as long as they keep us all fighting amongst ourselves about something as irrelevant as skin color they don't have to worry about us all getting together to fight them over their policy. I assume the elite know that once the masses get together the elite will be the ones screwed for a change.
I don't know if HC is still following this thread, but I want to clarify that he appears to be right that Ms. Means did not assert these men made sexually suggestive comments. And I did not intend to imply otherwise in my earlier posts.
Rather, what captured my attention was the fact that adult men, drinking alcohol and attending a hockey game, would attempt to engage any unknown 13 or 14 year old girl in a conversation at all.
Of course it is not at all wrong to talk to children or young girls in an appropriate setting. For example, Jake's mentoring of kids seems fine, as presumably he knows the children and their parents, and they want his mentoring. But when a stranger who is an adult male drinking beer focuses his attention on very young girls, I find that troubling.
Sexual predators often begin grooming new victims, not with suggestive conversations, but with friendly conversations aimed at building trust. Once such trust is established, predators have a chance of getting the child alone and a chance of introducing suggestive comments, offering alcohol, or even drugging the girls.
I have no idea whether these men in their 20's, 30's and 40's are or are not sexual predators. But if I was a parent of one of those girls I would certainly object to any beer drinking adult who decides to approach my daughter at a hockey game and without my consent. Wouldn't you?
Les, you are entitled to your opinion, keep playing the game.
My opinion, Tim, is, your words are running on the border of a hate crime activist. I would more carefully choose them in the future.
Les, I expect those who are always out of hand to continue to be that way. That's not unusual. What's unusual is seeing two reasonable men (Thompson and Cornelius) become unreasonable to the point of shutting down dialogue.
Similarly it would be unusual to see you suddenly start writing thoughtfully, carefully and coherently and actually nailing down a compelling idea every once in awhile ;-)
that you would compare Joseph and Roger calling them reasonable
Joseph has yet to show unreasonable character here and refusing dialogue with Roger C is hardly unreasonable.
I do inderstand that you wouldn't grasp that, Les, believe me.
les-let's you and i read all 5-10-15 or more interviews of the adults in the box. then let's you and i find out how many people in SD are named "Means". then maybe we will have some insight.
otherwise you merely babble.
And that Bill Flemming is an insult to Joseph Thompson. Obviously you have no recollection of Roger's continued abuse of Joseph's character or concern thereof.
Thompson's dispassionate assertion that this is simply a matter of law and evidence while overlooking and/or dismissing the cultural overtones and the need for diplomacy is unreasonable in my opinion. Justice perhaps by necessity must be blind, but doesn't mean those who seek it are, nor should they be.
Me, a hate crime activist? That's down right funny, I could say the same thing about almost any republican policy, I'll pick my words as I please, 1st amendment you know, there's a reason why they put it 1st and not 2nd.
Nor should we be seeking the gallows until the hammer falls.
joe just called roger a "joke" and you don't see this as unreasonable? i wonder if your definition of unreasonable differs from say, a "Means"? as a banker did you ever treat a minority differently than your own?
Speak as you choose, Tim. DCI already knows your name. Gunnin Pubs. Yep. That's your right.
Go back to sleep, Les.
Martin Luther, you're not Flem.
What Bill said.
With my long experience with the Rapid City Journal comment sections, it is rarely that they post a comment and than take it down, most of the time they simply don't post my comments.
Happy Camper's insistence that I posted something that I clearly do not recall saying and his refusal to cite the quote or source is evidence that he too jumps to conclusions.
Even if I did say that O'Connell was or should be convicted or judged by public opinion, what difference does it make?
Happy Camper like reality and the reality is that Native Americans and non-Americans alike think he got off easy and by his silence and lawyering he has allowed himself to be judged by public opinion.
Not an aspiration of mine, Les. He had constipation problems bigtime and saw devils everywhere. My taste in Lutheran theologians runs more along the lines of Paul Tillich.
Joseph did call me a "joke" and a few other things and I responded in kind, yet I am the bad guy. joseph is pissed because I refuse to agree with him, therefore I am unreasonable.
And who said Larry Kurtz should move to Syria?
RC is correct about the RCJ comments section, they refuse to post a lot of things, I have never seen them remove a post once it's put up.
Silly question, what is DCI? I guess I need to start looking over my shoulder. Hahahaha
In order for Mr. Thompson's "nation of laws, not of men" to actually work, every one of us must be able to look at those laws and those who administer them (legislators, elected officials, police, judicial system, etc.) and see ourselves there.
Government only works when the people being governed trust the system and recognize themselves in it.
Therefore, shutting Roger and his brothers and sisters out of the conversation, refusing to hear and/or see him or dialogue with him works against the very concept of blind justice we would all like to embrace.
Without trust, there can be no justice.
I think Joseph and Roger want the same thing. And they need to trust at least that in one another. I hope they resume their dialogue, if not here, perhaps somewhere else. There is much to be gained if they can, and so much to be lost if they cannot.
I think the implication is that the Dept. of Criminal Investigation is looking for Larry Kurtz.
Well gee RC, good thing I don't live in the right wing echo chamber, I don't fear a god, my government, the president, my neighbor or the dude down the street. Guess I'm ok. I don't think Larry has anything to worry about either.
DCI looking for me? Can't think of a reason why, Roger: you?
Not a clue Larry.
As much as it turned my stomach, I read the comments on the Dump Site and someone there said pretty much the same thing, I believe it was the "state has some papers for you".
RC, you are a stronger man than me, I can't get myself to read that garbage.
Roger, i saw that: spaghetti thrown at the wall for PP's pleasure. After a visit in 2012 from the Santa Fe Sheriff's Department who ran my record the fuzz can find me if Marty Jackley has a hard-on for me after insulting his stupid ass in the blogs.
Righteous indignation-wingnut style. We get so tired of us wolves being called wolves,it is just sickening. We don't deserve our reputation. Liberals continually misunderstand our philanthropy that the weak must perish just because. You'd think they think we favor the wealthy,well that is just wrong. We are just hirelings,hired to protect the wealthy's wealth at all cost. See,it is nothing personal. We don't actually hate the poor,the elderly,the young and defenseless. We just use them for practice to guard against the Liberals at the door.
My statement of the DCI had nothing to do with Kurse but rather the continued rant of an angry Tim with his half hearted attempts to combine humor with gunning down Pubs.
Les, your spaghetti, or underwear for that matter, won't stick on these walls. At least give Larry the respect of spelling his name right. Oh, and for the record, you have no idea who I am, and I'm sure the DCI could care less.
The only anger I have is what republican policy is doing to the people of South Dakota and the United States.
Most of the time it seems, people like Trace O'Connell, forget where they have their heritage from. O'Connell is an Irish name that came to this country from a place that was much like tea party Les would like to see here. A place where the right wing like Les can keep their boot on the neck of the oppressed. The Queen of England, Victoria during the time of the famine there, gave $2,000.00 out of a net worth of 100 million to the Irish that were starving to death. What was done there, was ethnic cleansing the same kind that has been done here in our past.
In the United States, the Choctaw Indian Tribe, after just completing the Trail of Tears that killed thousands, gathered $710.00 to send to the Irish to help them know that they were not forgotten. $710.00 does not seem like much today, but it was a fortune in 1847. Lest we not forget we are all brothers here and that our common enemy is not each other that toil for a living, but those that shackle us into stinking thinking. We also have another thing in common, the decency to protect our children from abuse. Here is something to consider https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/michael/www/choctaw/retrace.html
Ricardo Caté lives just a few miles away from here on the Santo Domingo Pueblo: he shows at the SWAIA, the Santa Fe Indian Market®. Here is another cartoon he drew chastising Rapid City and its culture of racism:
Intentional or not,that dude has a wicked sense of humor-which means this will go right over wingnut heads.
Whatever you are doing,Tim,seems to be working.
Do any of you understand what your asking for? You want to lower the bar for burden of proof until it alines with you perception of a crime. No prosicutor will be willing to go to court for that when they understand that the laws, as written dont say that crime was committed.
If you want the laws changed by all means try for that but in the meantime, what happened wasnt a hate crime, it was a man using poor judgment.
Just look at the implacations if there wood have been the charges you want. Not just a dismissal, but it would make charges twice as hard to get when it was needed.
If your making the argument that these kids were damaged emotionally for life, that wont fly. If having a beer spilled, or poured on them with or without racist words is a life altering experience, its going to be a pretty tough life for them growing up. I had way worse then that and I'm still here.
In order for this to be traumatic those kids would have to say they have never seen tasted or smelled beer ever but when they got wet, they knew it might kill them. They didnt get burned, they didnt have to haul someone off in an ambulance, and they all went home safely.
Can beer blind you? No. Can it kill you if its poured on you? No of course not. As a liquid, is it anymore damaging then water or pop if you get it on your person? No. I would bet that every one of those kids has spilled or been spilled on in their short lives, is this different because the person that did the spilling was white?
The kids wont have to testify, but I feel for the adults that Duffy gets on the stand. Some of you seem to think that because of his political views, he shouldn't have taken the case. There are two very good reasons he did that. First, he knows he can win, and second the money has to be good.
When they write laws, they have to find a way to limit cases where no or minimal harm is done. In the case of hate crimes the language of the law does that. It spells out what is a hate crime while at the same time ignoring things like verbal insults. The crime that most of you seem to want tried isnt even on the books for that very reason. Just imagine not just this case but 100,000 more just like it costing you money better spent on real crimes.
I dont know, does this rise to the level of a hate crime? When you find Matthew Shepard you might ask him. Thats right you cant because he really was a victim, hes dead.
Many of us have been sharing the Mette story for years with little obvious succes in bringing justice. For the life of me I cannot understand why it has not drawn the scrutiny of this case. Lives of Indian children were damn sure Impacted for life by the Mette's and those state officials who allowed the crimes to perpetuate.
This maybe more than a beer spill. This is as good as it can get for a charge apparently, although that may be up for discussion as well. That is why the federal probe should be done to satisfy the victims of this event. Regarding being cross examined by Duffy, after seeing his showmanship regarding the Eb-5 and then crickets, he is just a lawyer, nothing more and nothing less. Glad we have them, but they are nothing to fear, ask Mike Rounds.
Jerry I'm just curious, what do you want a federal probe to do?
I just would like to see some justice performed for the kids that were intimidated as well as their chaperons. I would like to show you how a civilized country behaves when there is racial overtones and no one is hit. http://www.theguardian.com/football/video/2015/feb/17/chelsea-fans-prevent-black-man-boarding-paris-metro-video?CMP=embed_video
What is the difference?
Jerry, the difference between the Rapid event and the Chelsea train incident is that rather definitive video evidence exists of what occurred during the latter. I wish similar evidence existed for the Civic Center discord, but thus far, none has been presented.
What I would like to see occurring is Civic Center management saying "Ok, there have been multiple recent incidents during which fans were purportedly subject to racist behavior (the Stampede game and the rodeo), so we are investigating the cost of adding video surveillance to the Civic Center and instituting fan-friendly security measures, such as the capability to text security when fellow fans are being rude, belligerent, etc."
I know that when I attended Vikings games, they encouraged fans to report "barbarians" (that was the term they used as a play on the fact that ancient, and some would even say current, Vikings had/have a barbaric reputation) via PA announcements and video boards. They provided a number that fans could text their location to if/when fellow fans got out of hand, and security would escort the offending fans from the premises if the complaints had merit.
If such strategies were employed in the Civic Center, it could have allowed the chaperones to report the incident without leaving the kids, it would have provided additional evidence (via the text sent), and cameras could potentially save the city the costs of investigating the incident by providing corroborating video evidence, as this has apparently resulted in at least 500 investigative hours for the O'Connell allegations. Civil libertarians may object to video surveillance, but if an environment is demonstrably unsafe, then adaptations may be necessary, and if you do not want to be on video, you can refrain from attending.
Intimidation is intimidation. Not a punch was thrown but people's civil rights were taken from them by a bunch of racists that spoke as clearly as the ones in Rapid City did about going back to the rez.
Jerry, they are getting justice. The beer drinker is headed for trial. It might not be the justice that you seek, but it is within the scope of the law he's charged with.
A federal probe wont change the law, and it wont change the facts in the matter. Unless I'm missing something a probe wont change anything in Rapid City South Dakota, as far as this case goes, and it wont happen for the reasons I've already stated. Now if you were to ask for a probe into Rapids racism, that might fly. But then again, has anyone asked?
For those 500 hours of interviews, they apparently did not satisfy the tribal members who have requested a federal probe. I have spent hours looking at something and could not find the solution so I then sought out others to assist, others with even more expertise than me. What harm could come from a federal probe and why is everyone so reluctant to have one?
This disorderly conduct is going to trial? doubtful. It is pretty safe to say that this will be settled in pre-trial like the rest of these are.
"Go back to the rez" spoken to Native children at a sports event in Rapid City.
'We're racist, we're racist and that's the way we like it' spoken to a black man at a sporting even in Europe.
If it walks like a duck.
One might also ask what good would come from a federal probe if it doesnt reach the conclusion that you are looking for? As hard as it is to get a probe now just think about what it would take if it didnt find anything.
Blindman's point that we don't have, and we don't want to have, laws criminalizing obnoxious behavior, necessarily suggest that people should chastise Mr. O'Connell through some type of public condemnation. After all, if we agree that his alleged behavior was inappropriate, what other method should be used to discourage others from engaging in such behavior?
If Mr. O'Connell's alleged or admitted behavior - attempting to engage with strange little girls, making comments to the children about the "reservation" to the children, "spilling" beer on them, and implicitly challenging the chaperone to a fight by telling him "come up here" - does not violate criminal statutes nor constitute activity that we should outlaw, then public condemnation of such acts may be the only means of discouraging similar conduct by others in the future.
And I doubt public condemnation will cause any more serious or long lasting harm to Mr. O'Connell than the Native children experienced from being marginalized due to their race by adult strange white men.
The civic center, the city of Rapid City, and Trace O'Connell and his counsel should welcome a probe by the Civil Rights Commission.
If absolutely nothing happened at the hockey game, as the RCPD would have us believe, a investigation would benefit the perp.
Jerry, your not saying anything happened, you would just like to go fishing for a while to see what you could catch.
Yes BCB thats all you have.
Exactly what I was referencing above, BCB.
Social justice vs criminal and civil justice.
Two completely different animals.
And to Roger's point, it seems the former is already in play.
It will be a challenge for Mr. Duffy to try to manage it,
as anyone who works in public relations knows full well.
Of course I am not saying anything happened or did not happen as I was not there. I only say that for whatever the amount of effort that has been involved regarding the child victims in all of this, does not seem to be enough. The tribal chairman has asked for a federal probe, not me.
Jake C-I can also see it escalating violence if some fans thought they were being reported because of sophomoric behavior to other groups. I have not been to any professional sports venues,but have noticed at smaller venues emotions get out of control and fights erupt. Fights are like rows of dominoes-when one starts they all get involved.
I like the idea,but one would need a whole better class of fans to make it work as it should,imho. The Blindman makes sense,as usual.
Roger, unless someone comes up with a smoking gun there will be no CRC probe for what happened at the Rush game.
I'm sure everyone here knows this old joke, but just in case, "I went to a fight once and a hockey game broke out."
I went to one game, one time here in RC, a year or so ago. I didn't like the vibe, and don't plan on going back. There is a systematic effort being made as far as I could tell, to coax the crowd into maximum hostility toward the visiting team and to humiliate them at every opportunity. Just not my kind of sports event, I guess.
Blindman-remember James Byrd,Jr. who was chained to the back of a pickup in Texas and drug until his head came away from the torso? Remember Potus dumbass dubya claiming that was not a hate crime and he refused to talk to Byrd's daughter and sign hate crimes legislation?
Certain pols in this country have a hard time separating reality from their personal beliefs. Do I think what happened with these kids a hate crime? Prolly,but not a prosecutable one solely due to lack of sufficient audio/visual evidence.
As for a federal probe,I'm guessing it is long past due to interject the fed into the way minorities and poorer whites get treated,especially by South Dakota's ruling heirarchy-just from what I have been able to read-since I freely admit I've never been anywhere near the place.
BCB - I've said all along that I don't support criminal charges for spouting racial insults or using slurs because I'm of the belief that our 1st Amendment is more important than hurt feelings. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that those responsible should be held accountable by the public. After all, the words may be protected, but there are repurcusions of using such language and those responsible need to understand that.
I always get a chuckle from people who say something offensive or hurtful and then claim they have some magical "free pass" card because of the 1st Amendment. Yes they can say it regardless of how tasteless or offensive it may be, and no it isn't illegal, but they don't get a free pass from the reactions or ramifications of their speech. Hopefully we can all agree there.
As to the beer spilling (or throwing) I've said I felt that was worthy of an assault charge (multiple charges if it impacted more than one child), but I admit I'm not a lawyer and cannot say how viable that idea is. I suppose proving he spilled the beer intentionally will be difficult if not impossible and there is probably already enough reasonable doubt out there to really make a determination so perhaps the disorderly conduct charge has a much lower burden of proof to make it stick.
This really isn't about this one event though. We know there are two sides to every story, we know that there are only a handful of people who really know what happened, we know 1st hand accounts are reliable, but 2nd and 3rd are not. However we don't know what the motivation was and we never will. Even in this day and age of smartphones and YouTube, not everything is caught on video - so we will never know.
That isn't the point though is it? The point is this type of event happens time and time again to the Native population, and time and time again it seems the issues are ignored or the discuss fades as time passes. Yet Natives live this series of events daily every time they go to the grocery store or the local Dairy Queen.
I just have to wonder what it may take to improve things. We have been talking about the racial divide for 100 years and it seems very little progress has been made. Even when we think we are making progress, people come out on the Internet and show us what they really think but are afraid to say publicly - and it seems to push us back 50 years.
I wish I had the answers, but I honestly wonder if racism will always be part of our society. Perhaps one day an alien race will invade us and we can divert all that hatred towards another species... until then apparently we will continue to hate one another for something as idiotic as the color of our skin, where our grandparents were born, what church we attend (or don't attend), what body parts we were born with, or what sports team we worship.
As a legal matter,doesn't Duffy only need one juror to "queer" the whole trial? The prosecution needs all 12-am I right?
Jerry ""drinking adults trying to pick up these young grade school girls.""
Jerry""Of course I am not saying anything happened or did not happen as I was not there. ""
Of course you did before you didn't, Jerry. And Bear didn't imply they were, unless I missed his thought.
So why don't the Mette victims deserve this attention, Jerry? It has been broached here before.
BF, hockey doesnt have a monopoly on fights in the stands. In the 70s we used to go to a lot of Bronco games. We saw Mean Joe Greene get ejected from the game and the about twenty people started fighting with the Green bay fans. We were on the fifty about twenty rows up on the Broncos side and had a good view of the procidings straight across from us. For a while it looked like a Long Valley dance.
Never been to a Rush game, I just cant keep up with the puck, but I tried the Avalanche twice and it wasnt for me.
This is how I'm going to close my post. From two truly great entertainers, Jackson Browne and Joan Osborne. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W6egCk43qf4
mfi - the verdict, either acquittal or conviction, must be unanimous. If one juror won't agree to either a conviction or acquittal, then the jury is "hung," which requires a mistrial. If a mistrial occurs then the prosecution has another bite at the apple and can recharge the defendant, who has no double jeopardy protection from additional prosecutions.
When I said nothing happened at the hockey game, I meant the Rapid City Police Department told us nothing happened that night. There was only one drunk guy acting disorderly.
Bill D., where did you get your information that there would not be a Civil Rights investigation, as far as I know the request was just made on Friday. You apparently have inside information, are you willing to share more?
Going down the rabbit trail with Les, always fun. I was not there ever at a hockey game. I have never even wanted to go to one there. I have been to them in Colorado and in a college one in Omaha, good fun and no beer throwing or trying to pick up 8th grade Native girls at either venue. Why does it piss you off that bearcreekbat told of that? I mentioned that as well as you know, why do you get all angry about something like that? Do tell.
Regarding the Mette victims, that is a republican issue as it was your boy Marty and company who made the calls on that for not doing anything. I think a federal probe into the incident in Rapid City is justified and I also think that as long as they are at it, the Mette victims should have the same investigation as they are both all to familiar here in South Dakota. With the republican in charge of everything that moves, it is difficult to solve legal issues that involve civil rights abuse's of power.
Roger I dont have any inside info, I'm just telling you it isnt gonna happen because there isnt enough proof of a hate crime to justify a probe.
Nothing about Bear pisses me off Jerry. It does piss me off to see you children and adults mistreated. And that is of all races. Your choice of words differs only slightly from the accused when you lie and twist others words to create discord as you did with Bears statement. As I said earlier, you know you don't have a win, so you go for a kill. Soldier on.
In South Dakota, there is always enough proof for a hate crime to justify a probe. This is our legacy and it must stop. The only way to do is to punish those responsible to make it so it is no long an acceptable outcome to being an ass. You know, I could maybe look at it differently if it were only adults involved, but this involved children. That makes it abuse. We can dance around this and get all righteous because after all, it was only beer thrown on these kids. After all, no none got hit with anything other than that, so what is the fuss? The fuss is that the beer thrown is the identical to anything that hurts, be it a baseball bat or a knife. It threatens and it hurts to gain control and to show supremacy. Bring on the federal probe and lets just see if there is enough proof to show a hate crime was committed. Bring it.
No one would welcome a federal probe into the South Dakota Justice system more than I, Jerry.
You are full of it les. If you want to be pissed off, good for you. I am very clear on what was said. I am clear on that. Bearcreekbat said this "These men were said to be in their 30's or 40's, with one possibly in his 20's. They are alleged to have initiated conversations with 8th grade Native girls they did not know."
Now then, if this is not about trying to pick up grade school Native girls, I do not know what is.
Les-here is just one of Cory's stories about the Mette case. There are plenty more in Cory's archives.
So then Les, lets try to stay on the same side of the court and welcome a federal probe into the mess we find ourselves in. We all know this is not the way to live our lives. We all should be demanding the feds come in to clean this place up, it is rotten from the top down.
There is a feeling of terror and intimidation going on in our communities. A feeling of hopelessness as this Mette case as well as the hockey incident civil rights abuses are just incredible. Add in the corruption of the EB-5 and the rest of the double dealing we have allowed our local and state government to do, and you see the criminality running with impunity.
I've been here since 2007, mifi and have seen those posts...note a whole five replies to post.
I'm in big trouble Jerry. I greet kids all the time. I greet strange adults all the time. I cannot imagine hollering down to them below but I don't know what was said, where it was said or how it was said.
That said, Judge Fuller saw problems in RC with both the PD and SA and was given the boot for it. I'm sure folks here have a better ID on Fuller than I, but from what I know he didn't make life easy on many.
What should Native Americans do when their civil rights are violated?
Wait and make sure all the laws will work for them or against them, or perhaps hire legal council before calling law enforcement.
Don't bother reporting civil rights violations, they are actually a figment of your imagination, don't report them because state and local law enforcement will explain them away and not do anything or only the minimum.
In Rapid City you can go to the Human Relations Committee to report civil rights violations, their authority is so limited you may as well stay home.
I have seen and been a victim or Rapid City citizens brow beating racial incidents to the ground because some legal statute does not protect them from racial assaults. For an example of this, read the comment section on the Rapid City Journal website.
So, where does the Native American community stand? Hopefully there will be a civil rights hearing into not just the hockey game incident, but to hear of other complaints as well.
There will be more marches in support of the American Horse 57, bringing awareness is important to Rapid City and the many white people that understand the plight of Native Americans that live here.
There will also be a backlash to protest marches, the Journal will post a constant feed of comments containing ever racial stereotype of Native Americans and call it a discussion when it is actually a perpetuation of racial hatred.
So, what do Native Americans do when they are subjected to racial hatred and their actions "judged" as lies without a hearing or trial?
Jan 15,2014-18 comments including my full name.
Feb 8th,2015-16 comments
Jan 29,2015-15 comments
Nov 22,2014-96 comments
Sept 21,2014-11 comments
mar 2,2014 13 comments
Jan 17,2014-19 comments
jun 11,2013-5 comments
There are prolly others I missed. How many posts did Powers have?
Hopefully there will be a civil rights hearing into not just the hockey game incident, but to hear of other complaints as well." Exactly Roger, your power is through multiple documented incidents, don't make it only about the hockey game because that one is lost.
I don't drink anymore than an occasional beer, but when I did consume more, I never ever approached young grade school girls with any kind of greeting. I don't think that I am abnormal in that case and think that most men really think that way. As I am not a psychologist or mind reader of any kind, I wonder what makes a certain caliber of men think they can just make demands on those they see as weaker than them. Maybe as part of this man's pretrial, he could be examined to see why he felt himself privileged to do that.
Roger, your last post should be sent to Mayor Kooiker. You have many valid points, and as Mayor, he cannot leave those questions unanswered.
My issues are not about Cory, mifi. Without Cory the Mette case had no coverage and that is my anger. I support Cory and we get along not because we agree on everything, but because we both want an honest shake and believe it or not, we actually agree on a substantial number of issues.
dithmer-youtube joan sing "broken hearted" with the funk brothers. perhaps the best R&B rendition on the planet.
I'm sorry I was away this past weekend. I should have been paying more attention to moderate this conversation.
I'm sorry that I have to make this admonition explicit, but "Go f--- yourself" does not contribute to the conversation. Statements like that shut down conversation and provoke pointless fights. Happy Camper's assessment of the detriment done to this blog by such comments is accurate. If you want to encourage people to read this blog and participate in a meaningful conversation, Larry, you do not tell commenters to go f--- themselves. If you want to undermine my effort to invite citizens to serious conversation and to do something that has maybe just a faint chance of making a difference in our understanding of racism and other major problems in South Dakota, keep saying stupid things like "gfy" whenever you run out of useful things to say.
But "tag team of infants"? HC, I take issue with that characterization. Just what is the conversation supposed to look like here? To whose concept of perfect non-offending civility is the comment section supposed to conform?
Yes, critiques and responses can be harsh here. I thought that's specifically why some people adopted pseudonyms, so they could shrug off the personal shrapnel and keep on swinging.
Since pretty much everyone here is a friend and neighbor, has trusted me in some way, and since we're now abusing that trust and friendship to say this gathering is hurtful if not useless, I need to rap the gavel and ask why we're all taking this so personally.
Consider Steve Hickey's response. He's one of us white oppressors, but he has tried to reach out to those we oppress. He has stuck his neck out to propose solutions that his party bosses find unpalatable. How is that commentary useless?
Consider Roger Cornelius's responses. He is a Native elder. He has seen his people marginalized in their own land. He sees the incident discussed here—the beer-throwing, the police response, the defendant's ploy—as evidence of yet another rejection of his people's humanity. The facts remain unclear (sorry, Roger—I am obliged to acknowledge my distance from the facts), but suspicion and anger of his response and others' are completely understandable. I can't lightly dismiss Roger's response as some typical liberal excess that indicts the intelligence and reliability of anyone who comments here, including myself.
so les, if judge fuller can have problems from pd, so and sa and get politically removed as you imply, why can't the "Allen 57" feel like the decision process between crca, sa, pd and so in charging out a class 2 misd. seem political as well?
the point is we do not trust the ethics of prosecutors in a red state.
Mike, violence could indeed result, but that is why security should become involved and be made aware of the situation. Personally, I think the recent events require investment in video surveillance equipment.
Roger and Jerry, I think we agree on many issues, but it makes me very nervous that there seems to be a propensity to ignore the need for objective evidence when the "facts" of this case are in dispute. Jerry, you try to equate the Chelsea fan situation with the one in Rapid City, but, as I stated before, they are vastly different in that the former has video evidence readily available, while the latter has conflicting testimony (some of which is seemingly contradictory from the chaperones) regarding what happened. Of course, O'Connell's account will likely differ from the chaperones, but it gives me pause when key differences exist between the chaperones' accounts. If O'Connell, or any fan, made statements like "go back to the rez" or deliberately spilled beer, he deserves to be punished more than he might be under the current charges, provided corroborating evidence exists. If retribution/punishment is sought without evidence, can't you see how racists might take advantage of that situation to possibly bring similar charges (which would likely be unwarranted) against Native Americans/American Indians or sow additional discord? Also, haven't you ever been accused of something that resulted from a misunderstanding and/or misconstrued actions? I wish that a group of fans who are not affiliated with either group could corroborate one of the accounts, but it does not seem like that is the case. Also, saying that the Rapid police are doing nothing just because the charges do not match the ones you desire is false and counterproductive. Do you think that would encourage the police to objectively examine later claims? If the evidence does not support the charge, then you must charge the accused with crimes for which you have evidentiary support.
Roger, you asked what Native Americans/American Indians can do. I think one strategy is taking a cue from those on the subway who used what appears to be a cellphone to record the racist actions of the Chelsea fans. I recommend employing those strategies if/when racists are encountered, if it can be done safely. I think audio recordings of the alleged racist taunts would also have probative value. Of course, that is tricky because getting the recording requires one to anticipate that racist words will be spoken. Marches can also be effective, but I hope that leaders adopt strategies like those of Dr. King to minimize the chance that they stoke racist animus. This situation is extremely volatile, and I hope that it does not become more violent.
You know Leslie, I didn't even know who Joan was until Relish came out. When she did Dylan's Man In The Long Black Coat, I was hooked.
She is so versatile anything goes. Three octaves with a voice that moves from little girl to sultry blues singer. Natural duet qualities, demanding that you listen but not over lifting her part. Ya I like Joan.
I would agree that video surveillance is much needed in these crowd situations. I would also agree that there should be more of a police presence in these venues like they have at the LNI. It probably would not hurt to also monitor the intake of alcohol in these events because lets remember, some of these fans could be armed. Drunk and armed are not a good combo.
If the reports about the events that happened during the game are accurate and there seems to be evidence of racial slurs that occurred, why is this any different than the behavior in Europe regarding the black man trying to simply board a train? In order to proceed, we must first agree that there is a problem with racial issues in our state. We cannot be trying to deny they do not exist. The authorities must devise a way in which claims of racial issues be heard and acted upon with force. The police do this all the time and you can see the billboards proclaiming the amount of DWI's that have been accomplished in Rapid City. Perhaps something like that to show the community does not tolerate that behavior is necessary. Until something like a federal probe that shows we are fed up with those actions occurs, we shall have the same conversation again and again. There was another beer spill incident at the civic center that was reported on after this one. Seems to be a trend.
The very worst part of this whole mess is who will hear the case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poL7l-Uk3I8#t=219 You guessed it, the best judge money can buy. Our judicial system is a wreck so this is who it falls upon. We need the feds to come in and police the place to clean it up.
No apology is necessary.
I just spent a few minutes reviewing my comments here and am perplexed at criticism of me. I have not contested the posted evidence, what I have maintained and will continue to maintain is that as a Native American I do not trust the Rapid City Police Department. Why should I?
Most of my comments here have been in response to comments made by others and may have not been relevant to the beerchucking.
Happy Camper contends I made remarks on the Journal website, yet he has not been able to produce them while others tell me the Journal took them down.
Like many others I have made comments on related blogs about the hockey game and like others those comments were based on news reports at the time.
I have all but given up in hoping that others can see my point of view or understand my worldview since I come from a different culture and live in a white world.
There is trepidation on my part of accepting anything as fact that comes from any government agency, that is my reality and it comes from life experiences.
There will be another civic center incident somewhere in the future and it will once again be the burden of the accused to prove it. Or on the other hand why bother, I already know the outcome.
leslie, if you are not the attorney leslie, please say so. If you are, you should hold close the legal process which protects us from the people who abuse our rights whether they are inside or outside of that system.
I've been forced to be a part of taking a cause to the supremes twice in SD before being granted Justice. This is not to say the system cannot or does not fail as Roger claims it has requiring civil action.
I well remember attorney Bill Kunstler along with Dennis and Russell in front of my camera on several occasions in Mpls/St Paul in 73-74. Kunstler's closing came to mind as I thought of Rogers words today and it is well worth a refresher for all who care about Justice.
until u stop abusing commentors, noyb. "have u stopped beating yer wife (insert other object) yet?" what do u do, for who, who are u? get it? also "wutz yer deal" w/herseth and tyler? (c)1491s
On the issue of what charges could have been filed if all the worst allegations against O'Connell were true, it doesn't appear that he committed an assault, child abuse or hate crime as defined by South Dakota statutes: See e.g.
22-18-1. Simple assault--Misdemeanor--Felony for subsequent offenses. Any person who:
(1) Attempts to cause bodily injury to another and has the actual ability to cause the injury;
(2) Recklessly causes bodily injury to another;
(3) Negligently causes bodily injury to another with a dangerous weapon;
(4) Attempts by physical menace or credible threat to put another in fear of imminent bodily harm, with or without the actual ability to harm the other person; or
(5) Intentionally causes bodily injury to another which does not result in serious bodily injury;
is guilty of simple assault. . . .
Here there does not seem to be any allegation that O'Connell acts met the "bodily injury" element of the statute. Next state law defines an abused child as:
26-8A-2. Abused or neglected child defined. In this chapter and chapter 26-7A, the term, abused or neglected child, means a child:
(1) Whose parent, guardian, or custodian has abandoned the child or has subjected the child to mistreatment or abuse;
(2) Who lacks proper parental care through the actions or omissions of the child's parent, guardian, or custodian;
(3) Whose environment is injurious to the child's welfare;
(4) Whose parent, guardian, or custodian fails or refuses to provide proper or necessary subsistence, supervision, education, medical care, or any other care necessary for the child's health, guidance, or well-being;
(5) Who is homeless, without proper care, or not domiciled with the child's parent, guardian, or custodian through no fault of the child's parent, guardian, or custodian;
(6) Who is threatened with substantial harm;
(7) Who has sustained emotional harm or mental injury as indicated by an injury to the child's intellectual or psychological capacity evidenced by an observable and substantial impairment in the child's ability to function within the child's normal range of performance and behavior, with due regard to the child's culture;
(8) Who is subject to sexual abuse, sexual molestation, or sexual exploitation by the child's parent, guardian, custodian, or any other person responsible for the child's care;
(9) Who was subject to prenatal exposure to abusive use of alcohol, marijuana, or any controlled drug or substance not lawfully prescribed by a practitioner as authorized by chapters 22-42 and 34-20B; or
(10) Whose parent, guardian, or custodian knowingly exposes the child to an environment that is being used for the manufacture, use, or distribution of methamphetamines or any other unlawfully manufactured controlled drug or substance.
Again, this statute does not appear to include any of O'Connell's alleged acts. Even state hate crimes require more than what O'Connell is alleged to have done:
22-19B-1. Malicious intimidation or harassment--Felony. No person may maliciously and with the specific intent to intimidate or harass any person or specific group of persons because of that person's or group of persons' race, ethnicity, religion, ancestry, or national origin:
(1) Cause physical injury to another person; or
(2) Deface any real or personal property of another person; or
(3) Damage or destroy any real or personal property of another person; or
(4) Threaten, by word or act, to do the acts prohibited if there is reasonable cause to believe that any of the acts prohibited in subdivision (1), (2), or (3) of this section will occur.
A violation of this section is a Class 6 felony.
These specific statutory requirements likely explain why police decided to charge O'Connell with only a disorderly conduct violation.
isn't throwing beer on someone defacing? weren't there evidences of threats to fight and to leave the event?
leslie, perhaps authorities did not think a jury could find these elements - defacing property or threats - beyond a reasonable doubt if the evidence showed:
1. O'Connell sprayed beer on the chaperone and kids
2. O'Connell said "go back to the reservation"
3. O'Connell said "come up here to talk about it."
The last two comments don't seem to have the required threatening language.
The first act doesn't seem to meet a dictionary definition of "defacing real or personal property," although it could if the beer were aimed at a valuable painting or other property that could be actually damaged by the beer. Here the allegation is that the beer was thrown at people not property.
beer on some ones best wool sweater
so the point is, and thx bcb for continuing to bring lucidity to this compelling and important incident (not an incident for some, more likely a trauma, an assault after they dressed up, all excited, to head to the big city. do we think those traumas evaporate? they don't-we read about them later, in the police blog or the rez headlines, years later, generations later.) "this is serious sheit, man", to quote an elder.
maybe all seeing duffy could turn trace into a teaching moment with some sort of alternative sentencing where trace could teach 5 others of his ilk, the humility of his experience and what's wrong with racial hate. maybe visiting the rez schools if he hasn't already to see the bigger picture (yes, trace, BIGGER than a hockey game), but not by shouting at the judge or the media or the watching public.
...anyway, the point is...as i meant to say, is that a federal prosecutor out of the thick of our politically poisonous community would charge the facts with an independent, objective, unelected, perspective.
hilarious youtube jerry!
leslie, that is a great idea about requiring O'Connell to visit schools, such as American Horse School in Allen. I was fortunate enough to give presentations to kids at American Horse for several years. Each year I found new crops of kids as a great audience with lots of intelligent comments and insightful questions.
Perhaps by getting to know the kids on a personal level O'Connell could begin to appreciate theses kids as fellow humans rather than see them as residents of the "rez."
bcb-simple assault (4) seems to fit the bill,too, a class 1 misd ($1000, year jail max, if i'm right).
i wanna know why they (sa, so, pd perhaps) hung the city attorney out to dry, 'cause kookier is wearing an indian tie??? the city has no criminal investigatory resource.
leslie, I can see your argument, yet I wonder if authorities doubted the ability to meet the "physical menace or credible threat to put another in fear of imminent bodily harm?" I assume that this element would use an objective test, not a subjective one. If so, the prosecution would have to show that a reasonable person would have suffered fear of imminent bodily harm by O'Connell's conduct.
There is a skin head website for the racist at heart. Stormfront.org don't let them leave you behind.
My mistake,Les. It sounded like you were giving Cory short shrift for not reporting or the rest of us for not getting angry about it. My humblest apology.
note today USAG holder found insufficient evidence for a hate crime in zimmermans "stand your ground" stalk and execution of hooded teen trayvon martin
note today USAG holder found insufficient evidence for a hate crime in zimmerman's "stand your ground" stalk and execution of hooded teen trayvon martin
Zimmerman's pre-meditated murder of Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman did say that Martin matched the description of thugs who committed crimes and got away. Zimmerman also said this was one thug that wasn't going to get away and by god he made sure Martin didn't get away-alive.
speaking of duffy's defenses, the new word for me of the day is ultramonism, which prairie perspective, 2.26.15 (see right sidebar) talks about as historical church justification to cover-up priest pedophilia,if that is the correct term.
mfi-ptl for supercop zimmerman
Jake-twitter this for a very 2 min. uncomfortable video capture of a black woman by white officer(s) for jaywalking on a university street by university professor by university officers.
law enforcement physical solutions have gone too far
of course pro-law enforcement use of excessive force will say, if you don't want to get hurt or shot, do what officer says "relax, i am trying to help you here"
Leslie, unfortunately, we seem to be mired in the realm of false equivalencies. Many of this thread's recent discussions have attempted to equate instances where seemingly incontrovertible evidence of an offense exists with the case in Rapid City, which lacks such evidence. Is there a chance officials in Rapid City are ignoring evidence and/or deliberately refusing to pursue charges in earnest -- I suppose. Also, might that have happened in the past -- yes. Is it equally likely that the evidence, at least that which currently exists, does not support the charges you and others desire -- yes.
Fortunately, we do not prosecute people accused of one crime for conduct such as racism, which was committed by completely different groups. In fact, were we to do so, we would be engaging in activities that are just as prejudiced as the racist actions we abhor. I realize some want vengeance, but any punishment that is meted out needs to be supported by evidence.
ultramonTanism-haha-i guess it is bigger, like montana
Leslie, first I need to admit that I lack objectivity because I have people I care deeply about that are employed in law enforcement. My bias may also prevent me from believing that those individuals would ever do something like you describe. However, I have never said that excessive force is permissible. In fact, the very term indicates that the force employed was not warranted.
I tried to visit the site you linked to, and the video would not play; however, I did locate this site, which portrays the situation in a different light (http://www.azfamily.com/news/New-video-shows-ASU-professor-kick-campus-police-officer-292958371.html). Again, that video would not play on IE, so I recommend using Google Chrome, although it could merely be a problem with my laptop. Is there a chance this video was doctored -- again, I suppose. Is it equally likely that a decent police officer was needlessly forced to resign -- possibly.
Leslie, there are racist police officers, but we will not solve the problem by assuming that all non-minorities are racist. I believe what is required is that we all take a step back, ask questions like (in the case in AZ) was Dr. Ore's act of jaywalking putting herself and others at risk? Was it possible excessive force was used? If so, was it possible that the accused "perp's" (btw, I called Dr. Ore a "perp" because she was accused of jaywalking, not because of her race) actions necessitated such force?
If we want to work to solve issues like racism, prejudice, excessive force, sexual abuse by clergy, we need to establish coalitions comprised of ethical individuals from those sectors, so in the case of the police, we need to leverage the influence of good police officers to help rid ourselves of the bad.
false equivalencies are not the issue. you speak well. a few nights ago i asked the above question at a public dinner of why a seemingly political decision was made to stick the city with the charging decision.
perhaps the mayor is comfortable with taking the heat from our indian brothers and sisters that are dismayed by the way this whole thing is playing out. the commissioners, the so, the pd and the sa are all far more experienced and resourced in making the charging decision as opposed to the tiny city attorney staff that focuses on municipal civil work, 99%.
since this incident, the discussion has been incredibly important to evolution away from racism for
SD. whatever happens in court is a subsequent outcome based on a legal system, law enforcement system, and fallible system of establishing truth. those abused by system errors are forever poisoned from trusting such systems again. you seem to be saying, with power, "relax, i am trying to help you" like the officer after the tiny professional woman in a dress has just been thrown to the pavement in the middle of the street by a large male officer.
don't be an apologist for the system, watch it function in context over time. bragging that 500 interviews were conducted to the press does not tell me why nobody in the box saw, heard, or did anything, but did anonomously (headline rcj, saturday afterward) see the "allen 57" fail to stand for the pledge or whatever. big wuff.
as far as i am concerned, when we hurt people who do not stand, or jaywalk, under the color of authority, we have violated them. false equivenlancy is not the issue.
washington post tv video, apparently 2.17.15 is the twitter link reference.
When people ignore possible explanations, that is an issue. If Dr. Ore was walking in the street in traffic, refusing to obey directions to stop doing so, and then kicking officers, then that should be taken into consideration. Again, might excessive force have been used -- possibly, but you seem to ignore Dr. Ore resisting (and assaulting, I might add) the officer.
Did you watch the video I linked to?
I have said before, that I probably would not want to hang out with O'Connell, but when even the chaperones' testimony is contradictory, it becomes difficult to establish whether he deliberately poured beer on the students, made racist remarks, and threatened them. Again, as I stated before, I wish very much that fans who are not associated with O'Connell or the American Horse group would come forward with evidence that supports one of the theories of what occurred, but that has not happened.
A minority has no more right to assault an officer than the officer to exert excessive force, unless the minority needs to do so to protect him/herself or other innocent bystanders, and I believe someone viewing the video I linked to, which apparently includes the portion from the Washington Post you linked to, would be hard pressed to say that Dr. Ore was justified in kicking the officer. Again, I would need to access additional evidence before I stated so definitively though, and I definitely would not be able to condemn either side given the evidence I have now.
There seems to be a total disconnect between assaulting law enforcement and the numbers that cops do on civilians. Touching an officer can be considered assault. When cops beat the hell out of civilians and break bones or poke eyes out it is usually charged to the defendent as resisting arrest to cover the cop's asses.
Mike, I have never said we should ignore police brutality or excessive force, so I am not sure how I became an "apologist" (in leslie's words). I merely attempt to examine cases like Dr. Ore's and the Civic Center incidents from a perspective that sometimes we jump to conclusions without considering alternate theories. For example, in the case of Dr. Ore, would you rather police ignore a person jaywalking on a street with traffic? Should we ignore the fact that Dr. Ore kicked the officer?
If police brutality and excessive force occurs, I want the offenders rooted out because it poisons the environment for good, ethical officers. However, I cannot write off all cases where an officer needs to wrestle with a purported offender as a case of police brutality, particularly if evidence supporting another perspective exists, as seems to be the case with Dr. Ore.
There are unethical individuals among both non-minority and minority communities, so I believe we need to do all we can to comprehensively investigate these cases, particularly given the volatility surrounding these allegations.
My comment was of the general observation type. Had it been meant for you,Jake,or anyone in particular,I would have named said individual.
Yesterday the Oglala Sioux Tribal Council voted to request that LNI be moved from Rapid City to another location.
Just a few years ago, when Jim Shaw was Mayor I believe the LNI board of directors nearly moved the tournament after racial allegations were made. The Mayor, city council, and Chamber of Commerce made a concerted effort to keep the tournament in Rapid City, they even traveled to the reservation to hear complaints and promised the city would do better.
Now, some will say that it is poor reasoning to move the tourney because of one racist drunk from Phillip, that would not be the truth. Should the tourney be moved it will because of the atmosphere of racism that exists in the city.
Leslie, I promise not to belabor this point, but I have been researching the Ore situation (given the "over the top" behavior by both parties), and I have learned of reports which have caused me to question my early assessment of the situation.
First, this report supported my initial assessment that there was a chance that Dr. Ore's safety was at risk and she refused to comply with officers at the scene after they nearly hit her when responding to another call (https://asunews.asu.edu/20140630-ersula-ore). In addition, that report indicates that Officer Ferrin was initially cleared of wrongdoing. Also, it details that ASU PD requested an independent review, a step that I believe is often prudent to help ensure objectivity and allay concerns of bias.
We now know that the independent review refuted the initial ASU review and concluded that Ferrin exercised poor judgment and did not act in accordance with AZ laws and departmental regs. (http://archive.azcentral.com/persistent/icimages/news/Ferrin-Notice%20of%20Intent%20to%20Terminate%20Ltr.pdf). Moreover, that source details other issues with arrests/citations Ferrin was involved in.
I think it is also important to note that Dr. Ore has filed a $2 million dollar lawsuit against ASU (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2015/01/12/asu-professor-arrested-files-claim/21644785/), so one question now becomes whether that lawsuit could even partially explain the reason why the prior ASU review concluding Ferrin was justified, given the risk to Dr. Ore's safety in being in the middle of the road, contradicted the later independent review.
I admit that I am much closer to concluding that Officer Ferrin is better suited for non-law enforcement employment, and if his actions were indeed unlawful (as the independent review concluded), then he is guilty of assault & battery and excessive force/police brutality. Conversely, if Dr. Ore's safety really was at risk (i.e., if incontrovertible evidence exists of her nearly being hit by Ferrin's police cruiser), which would contradict the independent review's conclusions, I would question whether Dr. Ore is possibly an opportunist seeking a hefty settlement.
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