The South Dakota Senate passed the latest nibble at women's reproductive rights yesterday, voting 29–5 for House Bill 1130. This measure makes it illegal for abortion providers to accept payment until after women have had a good hard think during South Dakota's minimum 72-hour waiting period.
South Dakota has only one abortion provider, and even proponents acknowledge that such prepayment is not standard practice. HB 1130 thus has little practical effect. But Senator Angie Buhl O'Donnell (D-15/Sioux Falls) explains the moral effect of further insult to women:
I’m bothered by the underlying idea that women could possibly, that women take so lightly the idea of what they’re going to do when they have an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy that they might think to themselves – well, gee I was gonna decide to keep the pregnancy but I already wrote the check so ok let’s go. That really bothers me [Senator Angie Buhl O'Donnell, quoted in Jackelyn Severin, "Senators Pass Measure Restricting Payments for Abortion Procedures," SDPB Radio, 2015.02.26].
Senate Health and Human Services made a minor amendment to HB 1130, eliminating a line that would have prohibited abortion providers from accepting a commitment for payment. The bill must thus return to the House for concurrence.
In a state so rampant with prescription pain pill abuse the further restriction of women's rights seems an example of ignoring the pertinent and pandering the repression of female equality ..... again.
Can anyone give me another example in the medical area where a pre-payment is required?
Why doesn't this fall under basic consumer protection? If dentist started requiring pre-payment wouldn't you guys howl?
I am really confused.
Look,Troy a squirrel. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for Troy to convince good people to do nothing.
This post would have been a better spot for Taunia's post about sexism yesterday,imho.
the single shot of sperm is equivalent to a gift. The recipient has the right to return it or throw it away. If you aren't the recipient, butt out.
Why any women live in South Dakota remains a mystery.
Progressives aren't mourning the population growth of American Indians, African-Americans, Asians, and Latinos who are producing offspring at higher rates than European-Americans are. To the contrary: evolution relies on diversity.
Rich women have full reproductive freedom while women at middle and lower income levels experience chilling effects on their rights. South Dakota's repeated attempts to restrict access to medical care is not only mean-spirited, it's discriminatory anti-choice extremism.
Planned Parenthood might consider a fund that flies lower income women to Minneapolis or Denver to exercise their civil rights.
Troy, shouldn't this be a business decision best left to the people involved in the transaction?
And to answer your question, every time I go to a medical provider I'm asked for my insurance card. Essentially they are asking for proof they will be paid and often they want the per visit copay paid up front in addition to the insurance card.
I'd think you were serious and sincere if you had the same view on other consumer protection issues.
Regarding the insurance card, that is a form of accepted payment. However, I/ the insurance company doesn't pay anything out of pocket until after the service/procedure is completed. There is no pre-payment. If I don't get the procedure, no bill is submitted and they don't keep what would have been billed.
If all you liberals were intellectually honest and consistent, you'd be all over this under the banner of "consumer protection" especially because of the "use it or lose it" nature of the payment.
In the real world procedures are done without a religionist state building walls between a patient and a surgical team.
Actually Troy, dentists do require prepayment.
So fill us in Troy, if a woman who is prepaying decides not to have a legal abortion, she can't get her money back? You must obviously have seen the contract for these arrangements.
What about prepaid funeral expenses? Prepaid phones? Prepaid tuition? Prepaid legal? Prepaid debit cards? Prepaid rent?
Speaking of intellectually honest and consistent...do you really think that this is a bill inspired by consumer protections? HA!
Won't you have to pay your lawyer before he convinces the jury to find you innocent, Troy? ;-) Don't you pay your investment broker before he makes you a bunch of money? Don't you have to pay to get a bingo card, or before you take an airplane ride?
Seems like there are lots of instances where the service provider wants cash up front. The buyer can do it or not do it, but I don't think it's common to tell vendors they can't ask for it is it?
and to Larry's point ref rich versus poor and abortions......a timely article (with data!)
Good eye, Dana. Ran across this yesterday:
So it begs the question.....when are "they" going to legislate against DNC's at facilities other that the lone abortion clinic in this state. (not that I'm supporting that, by the way)...... I'm just saying, if they want to be consistent rather than hypocrites.
Payment method has zero to do with wingnuts trying to stop women from exercising their constitutional right to have or not have an abortion.
If wingnuts were intellectually honest they be all over this as an affront to women's rights and equality instead of using gubmint overreach which they claim to hate.
Troy: "Can anyone give me another example in the medical area where a pre-payment is required?"
Many elective procedures require pre-payment. I experienced this myself when I had to pay a consultation fee to see a physician when the procedure wasn't covered by my insurance. The actual cost of the procedure itself also had to be paid (or a financial agreement in place) before it could be performed. Many cosmetic procedures also require this (doctors can't repo a new set of breasts or a tummy-tuck), and some dentists and orthodontists require pre-payment as well. Just ask any parent who has had to put braces on a kid if they had to at the very least pre-pay for a portion of the service up front.
The point is Troy, if the legislature wanted to pass a bill banned pre-payment for ANY medical procedure they could have... but they didn't. It would still be a waste of time and an improper use of their time, but at least they would be consistent.
This isn't about consumer protection, because I can promise you this bill isn't built upon any hospital or clinic refusing to refund money to a women who changed their mind. In fact I press you to provide evidence this has ever occurred. This bill is simply a way for the legislature to exert dominance over women yet again. It is pinpointing a specific clinic who performs a specific service on a specific sex.
Pro-Life or Pro-Choice... this should disgust you either way. It isn't about protecting anyone or making a difference - it is about government control... and the sponsers of this bill should be ashamed of themselves.
Why are the majority of South Dakotan's tolerant of Christian extremism? The state is a laughing stock almost everywhere except the "hate state's" of Texas and Arizona. Is it because of the lack of population and that you'll run into everyone you know with higher frequency than more populated areas? Or is it as the Lakota elders teach us, "The wind makes the Wasi'chu crazy."
Campaign cash makes the white man crazy,too.
You are exactly correct in the examples and they don't apply here.
I meet with my dentist and he says I need a new crown, I don't have to pay that day when we set the appointment for the crown. i pay when I show up to have the crown put in. This bill just makes the abortion industry mirror every other practice. I thought you guys were all about consumer protection.
Troy is unreliable witness.
This bill just makes the religion industry mirror every other practice. In many clinics when a patient doesn't have insurance expect to pay up front. Go try to have five eye surgeries without insurance or dental work done.
That a state would bar the doors to a medical procedure because religion is outrageous.
George Wallace ain't got nuthin' on Troy Jones.
I assume anti-abortion wingnuts are about consumer protection-themselves. If a fetus isn't born it is hard for wingnuts to eat their own.
My 2 cents worth.... The voters have spoken to keeping abortion safe, legal and accessible in South Dakota far too many times to count now. When are the individuals that we send to Pierre finally going to recognize that they are there to represent those who sent them there rather than to push their own radical agendas? This angers me on a visceral level and if it doesn't make you angry, (not because of the abortion issue itself, but the bigger issue of "who exactly they in Pierre to represent") then I have to wonder exactly what the hell is wrong with you, too. It's time for our legislators to get to the business of doing what they were elected to do instead of worrying about the uterus of every woman in this state.... women, who by the way, are more than capable of minding their own reproductive decisions and who don't need people in Pierre thinking that they somehow know what's best for them instead. #hoppingmadandswearing
Troy: "I meet with my dentist and he says I need a new crown, I don't have to pay that day when we set the appointment for the crown. i pay when I show up to have the crown put in."
So your experience is the same as every other dentist and every other consumer in the state then?
Fact is Troy, that some elective services require payment before they perform the service. The fact that abortion has a 72 hour waiting period which isn't required for any other elective service is a side-issue (albeit one which proves once again how our legislature tries to do everything they can to control women's decisions).
So again, instead of offering a bill to ban pre-payment for medical procedures, the legislature made a specific bill to target one specific clinic and once specific medical procedure. This is NOT about consumer protection, and it is intellectually dishonest for you suggest it is.
Troy: "This bill just makes the abortion industry mirror every other practice."
That is a blatant misrepresentation Troy. Find me an example where another medical procedure requires a 72 hour waiting period so you can apply your logic and you might have something... but we know you can't do so.
So how about another example of where pre-payments are so often required. If I hire an attorney they will often required a retainer long before we actually go to court or they perform any research. Yet this is legal. I had a landscaping project completed a few years back and they required a 50% deposit before they could even schedule the job. Then, when they started they required the other 50% before the job was 50% complete. This is perfectly legal.
So why the inconsistency Troy? Again - it isn't about consumer protection, so let's not pretend it is.
Troy: "I thought you guys were all about consumer protection."
A. As shown above, this isn't about consumer protection. Let's leave the intellectual dishonesty to the legislature.
B. You don't know me, so please don't pretend to know what I'm "all about".
C. Sweeping generalizations are rarely a useful argument.
D. See 'A' above.
Troy, from what I gather on this thread, this bill prohibits a practice that doesn't occur. How is that consistent with the principle of more limited government?
This measure has nothing to do with consumer protection. It is only about denigration and oppression afflicted in the name business practice. And it is straw man composed of dishonesty and malice
I'll have to go along with Angie, the SDGOP thinks that women in this state are just too damn dumb to make any medical decisions regarding their health.
They than top it off with women are no capable of making any financial decisions regarding their health.
The SDGOP needs to be intellectually honest and tell women they are dumb and that male legislators will make decisions for them.
You Guys Are Terrible at Governing
You Guys Are Terrible at Governing
It's just a hunch I have. Oh, wait. It's empirical. Using data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development quality of life study, 24/7 Wall Street compiled a list of the ten states with the worst quality of life. Guess how many were totally controlled by Republicans? All of them. Sorry, did I offend you?
It seems to me there is a point that should be clarified here. In Cory's original post and on the SDPB site he linked to, the only references are to the measure making it illegal for the doctor to "accept" an early payment. Then Troy replaces that word with "require". It is clearly stated that early payments are not the norm. In the first case, it would seem that the measure is designed to keep a woman from budgeting her procedure prior to the 72-hour waiting period, maybe to preclude the possibility of her husband getting bombed in the interim and emptying the family account on a new hunting dog or some such. In the second case they seem to be worried that the physician will try to rope the woman in to prevent her changing her mind. So who are they trying to control here, the clinic or the patient? Although I guess the end result is the same either way, Troy seems to be trying to throw a positive light on this deal that it just doesn't deserve.
Troy, you are one smug son-of -a-bitch aren't you. Have you always been the smartest man in the room? I'm sure you were always smarter than any woman in the room.
If a woman provides proof of payment in the form of an insurance card do you think the abortion provider waits until the payment is in their account before preforming the abortion?
You claim this is a consumer protection measure, is there any example of a facility accepting payment for an abortion, the woman paying and then changing her mind, and the facility refusing to return her payment? If this actually happens it would be easily exposed by pro-life organizations running sting operations.
You would do well to admit what this is, just another attempt to harass legal abortion out of existence in South Dakota. Be truthful, admit the obvious, and pass the bill. Why the subterfuge?
I've said this before and I'll say it again, we can never legislate an end to abortion. If outlawed it will go underground and unregulated. The best we can do is reduce the incidence of abortion. The best way to reduce the incidence of abortion is with mandatory, comprehensive, fact based sex education and wide spread availability of free and effective birth control. Abortion will still exist but in greatly reduced numbers.
Troy is trying to baffle everyone with BS so they forget what the post was about and argue something Troy wants to argue.
Salon recently published an article by former evangelist, Frank Schaeffer, explaining his perception of the motivation behind these legislative proposal that seek to interfere with a woman's relationship with her doctor. He states,
"When you read the latest news stories about Mike Huckabee, CPAC, Fox News or whomever, fomenting yet more anti-woman or anti-feminist rhetoric, and crafting a “traditional values” Republican platform, you need to know that this anti-woman reaction has a carefully crafted cynical history."
Jim, you are spot on.
Nemec for Governor!
Wow,bcb. Just wow!
Troy is the smartest guy in the room, just ask him.
House Bill 1130 is what is despite Troy's explanation of consumer protection. If it is indeed a consumer protection issue, it should be easily supported by well documented evicence.
HB1130 is simply another infringement on women's rights.
OT-Mr Spock has left the building. Leonard Nimoy passed away today.
I would like to quote the wise and eloquent Ellee Spawn:
"This angers me on a visceral level and if it doesn't make you angry, (not because of the abortion issue itself, but the bigger issue of "who exactly they in Pierre to represent") then I have to wonder exactly what the hell is wrong with you, too. It's time for our legislators to get to the business of doing what they were elected to do instead of worrying about the uterus of every woman in this state.... women, who by the way, are more than capable of minding their own reproductive decisions and who don't need people in Pierre thinking that they somehow know what's best for them instead. #hoppingmadandswearing"
Thank you Ellee. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks, Deb. :-)
I like feisty women. Are either of you married and can you cook goulash? Inquiring iowan wants to know.
Happily married and I make amazing goulash.
We do need a Madville goulash-fest.
Dang,I'll have to be content to sit here goulash-less and compliment you on your ability to raise the collective intelligence of South Dakota just by being. Dang! :) Please to excuse my humble self,it is past mikey's bedtime.
Not married, outstanding goulash. But my question, Mike, is how well do you clean house?
BCB it was a good read.
Ellee, great piece of writing.
Every year, about this time, the SD legislature heads down the long and winding road of the abortion ablution male patern stupidity.
Can you women believe that the only thing of value you possess is your reproductive organs. They surly dont respect your minds. Otherwise they wouldnt be engaged in "mind rape" every damn session.
I just read the statistics of men versus women in SD. 47.7% of the population is made up of men, while 52.3% are women. I dont know why that's so important right now but maybe one of you females could fill me in ifin you know.
Just remember this ladies its a game. Pierre is just brimming right about now with a bunch of people that want to play Mel Gibson, amateur gynecologist. One thing you should know about amateur gynecologist is that they never want to play Shaquille O'Neal amateur proctologest.
Nope the book, "incert religious book of choice," doesnt say anything about proctology.
Let me taste your goulash said the spider to the fly. Ladies, I've heard about these goulash freaks.
MFI, really, you want to try their goulash. Let me know if that line works.
47.7% and 52.3% what is the significance of those numbers.
Deb, suffice it to say I can do anything better than anyone else,as long as I don't rilly have to prove it. :)
Goulash kept me from getting to sleep tonight. I'd kill for goulash. Not spicy stuff,just plain old ordinary goulash. Fresh oven baked bread with a little garlic salt on it doesn't hurt,either. Is that too much to ask for?
anecdotally, SOP cancer treatment requires ER care a lot, which of course is quicker but much more expensive than planned care. patients are given cards printed with: "if you experience a.), b.) or c.) go to ER immediately."
sitting, waiting in ER during the rally can get a little ridiculous, so while doing so, if you re-evaluate your particular feared symptom and decide it is not that bad, ER still forces you to pay the $143 sign-in-intake fee at the front desk.
medicare/medicaid won't pay it.
my own experience has been that trying to pre-pay or shop for medical procedures is difficult/impossible since final billing totals are subject to multiple contingencies.
we all know medical care is way too expensive in the usa, more so than it has to be because-troy and the republicans. that is amoral.
not sure if this adds to the discussion.
Troy and the rest of the right wing republican party, hate white people. They hate whites to the extent they make these rulings about everything that could help white people an impossibility. Abortion is just one of the ways in which they show their hatred of women, but in particular, white women.
Look at the laws they pass and support. We the people voted for wage increases. This law benefits working white people more than any other race. They attack it and want to make changes in an imitative the voters overwhelming supported. Medicaid Expansion will not be approved and who does that help, working poor white folks. Here is the other one that they attack with the full force of evil, food stamps. The majority of people who receive these are, yep, you guessed it, working poor white folks. Why does the republican party hate white people? Who knows, but the numbers and the facts bear me out. Here is the breakdown on food stamps http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/28/food-stamp-demographics_n_6771938.html
Not fooled by any of the rhetoric from either side. All of the guns and abortion bills are about one of two things - assuaging those who have donated to or endorsed campaigns, or attracting new donations and endorsements. Moral arguments - by a politician? Poppycock!
BCB - one worth saving for future reference.
You are exactly right Richard.
Deb, what is your opinion about Frank Schaeffer's essay? Do you see it as accurate?
Yes BCB, I think the Schaeffer essay is exactly right. I found myself copying one item after another because it was so well stated. I'll settle for this one:
"Reconstructionist-inspired religious right"
That is indeed a movement based on fear, ignorance and hate, just like all prejudices. The human lust for power and wealth is not mitigated in a movement like that.
As I read near the end of Schaeffer's essay, I resonated with his description of the religious right's information sources. I thought about a commenter here, SS, who is a far right religious type. One of the frustrations in trying to discuss with him is his utter reliance on a very few sources that reinforce his preconceived notions/prejudices.
These types of things are always based on fear which is then skillfully and reprehensibly exploited. I loathe the exploiters.
"I’m a Republican, and I can take care of myself. And besides that, I don’t know about you, but I don’t really want the government anywhere near my body or my health choices..."
Tomi is a good South Dakota woman who has served as an aide for Kristi Noem and is respected enough by staunch conservatives to be a speaker at CPAC.
Thanks Deb! Spooky isn't it? I posted another link on Madville today that identifies a connected historical event - how telling the truth and debating real facts was superceded by conservatives choosing instead to chant the mantra "Christianity and economic freedom" while either disregarding the actual facts or boldly mis-stating them while focusing the public's attention on the mantra and away from the truth.
It is spooky BCB. The conservative "reality", clearly based on lies to create a fantasy world, will bring ruin, as it always has.
As I read your Salon link, I was struck by how similar it is to what the Muslim jihadists are doing, minus the violence. Just as the jihadists have distorted the Koran and Muslim theology, the Religious Right has bastardized Christianity beyond recognition.
I don't know what the numbers are regarding Islam's growth or decline, but I guarantee that Christianity's decline is due to the Religious Right's co-optation of the religion into something unrecognizable and ugly. I have seen scientific, statistical proof of that, but I don't know where to begin to search for a link.
I have linked to a partial list ("Partial" because it's impossible to cover every single instance.), of nations that limit women's rights. Note that each one is an effort to control a woman's physical self, just as SD's legislature does.
Deb, I am particularly troubled by some of the "thinking" of men in India. One of the individuals involved in the horrific rape and murder of the young woman on the bus recently gave an interview. Some of his comments were quite obnoxious. In short, he felt her death was her fault because she resisted instead of just submitting to the multiple attacks, and that the rape was her fault for being out alone on the bus that night.
BCB, I am very angry, no, I am enraged that people like those Indian rapists feel they have a right to assault women and girls simply because they are women and girls. As with all people who are not part of the group in power, sometimes impotent rage nearly overwhelms.
I often think white male Americans ought to consider themselves extremely fortunate that the rest of the hemisphere does not rise up and wipe them off the face of the earth. One of the most troubling aspects of that kind of revolution is the number of supportive white males who would be massacred in addition to the oppressive ones.
Sometimes I wonder if it is possible to have a truly non-oppressive, egalitarian society. I wonder. BCB, what do you think?
Deb, I am an eternal optimist. I believe people are fundamentally good social creatures. I look at history and see how much worse some people had it over the years and when I see the changes that have improved conditions for so many people I have blind faith that humans will continue to grow in a positive direction. I doubt that I will live long enough to see a world-wide "truly non-oppressive, egalitarian society," yet I expect that humans will continue in that direction and will, as time goes on, overcome horrible obstacles in that path, including the misogynistic attitudes in India.
Thanks for your optimism BCB. Ordinarily I am more optimistic too, but yesterday was one of those days . . .
I live in a lower middle class area of St. Paul and I see small acts of kindness every day. This entire metro area is riddled with neighborhood organizations working for good. They must outnumber violent gangs more than 100/1.
I'll keep that in mind. Thanks BCB. This day has become brighter.
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