Texas Governor Rick Perry got 20,000 people together in a football stadium yesterday to watch him pray. Organizers of the the daylong "Response" urged followers to "bring bibles and fast," which is the most succinct summary ever of Republican fiscal and social policy.
The musical selections included "America the Beautiful." Christians should have a problem with any purportedly Christian event that features patriotic songs.
Christians should also have a problem with Governor Perry's selection of Scripture readings for yesterday's show. The governor and Presidential aspirant offered passages from Ephesians, Isaiah, and Joel (no translation of which mentions what a swell country America is) but omitted the very relevant Matthew 6:5&ndash6. I groove to The Message's translation:
5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat?
6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace.
So sayeth the Lord.
Update 11:35 CDT: A somewhat more Christian observer agrees that Gov. Perry's show yesterday continues Perry's cynical abuse of Christianity.
I prefer the New Revised Standard Version. http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=140444264
Although generally on target, the version from "The Message" is as much commentary as it is translation.
Hmm... Tried to use a blockquote HTML tag, but it didn't work. Oh well.
Chris that was without a doubt the best post I have seen in months.
While Perry isn't one of my top choices at this moment, I find nothing offensive about what Perry did. Nor was I offended by how MLK included prayer and Biblical references.
Find something relevant to discuss. This thread is either bigoted/ignorant about Christian prayer and practice or duplicitous because of similar forums by liberals in the past.
Perry is another scary twit. These yo-yo dudes think that wrapping themselves in spiritual clothing makes them the voice of god and all the rest of us devils. Their religious insanity is dangerous.
They grow and bask under the freedom of religion and separation of church and state in the US and lack of such control, but demand that they should control the rest of us and make a nest for their religious mythology in government.
The Christian fanatics are as dangerous to US freedoms as are the Islamicist fanatics.
Cory, I've been following closely the mocking coming from the tolerance crowd at the religious expression and devotion of others. ((Yet of course it's only Christian devotion that gets mocked, never Muslim.)) Every Scripture used by Perry was entirely appropriate. The biblical response for a nation to return to God is for national leaders to call a Joel 2 sacred assembly to fast and cry out in public repentance and petitionary prayer. That's all yesterday was. No Biblical scholar would agree with you that Jesus was prohibiting any and all forms of public prayer. In my Sermon on the Mount book I talk about that text being a prohibition against praying for publicities sake, grandstanding; the Greek word for hypocrite is literally rendered play acting, it's a word from the realm of theatre. Who are we to judge whether any there yesterday were doing it for show? Safeguards were established to keep the extended day of prayer focused, and not focused on any one person. If you watched the event you would have seen no one was given stage time to grandstand. Each was assigned brief and specific prayer points related to some of our greatest national needs. Jesus also taught that the prayer of agreement is powerful --where 2 or 3, or the more the merrier, come together in this name. I chuckled at you noting 20,000 attended. As is always the case attendance numbers are varied and reported however the one wanting to report them wishes. As you perhaps expected, I'm friends with those who pulled off this event. They report to me Texas Ranger officials estimate to peak attendance was 44000. They estimate 20,000 were in attendance when the doors were opened. There were 1000 registered satellite locations in cities all over America, including Sioux Falls. I haven't heard how many were there. I just texted a friend who was on the executive committee for yesterday's event and he reports an additional 120,000 individuals participated via the live webstream. I was one of those. Feel free to contact me if you ever want the real scoop on any of this sort of thing. Reading your post I was left with the sense that you have no idea what you are seeing or trying to comment on.Â
[CAH: Speaking of no idea what you are trying to comment on, I'm not the tolerance crowd. And I very clearly recognize when a politician is wrongly conflating Christianity with patriotism and personal ambition.]
I agree that this shouldn't be about Perry praying or the event itself. It's should be about whether or not he used his office as Texas Governor to promote it. Perry is free to attend events such as this and pray till the cows come home if he so desires.
Also considering he is considered a likely candidate for president, the event calls into question his association with such fundamentalist bigots as Bryan Fisher, Tony Perkins, and John Hagee, etc. whom all co-sponsored the "Response" along with Perry in much the same way many called into question Obama's association with Bill Ayers.
I wasn't aware Bill Ayers was a campaign issue for any in the media except Fox. Obama got a free pass from any serious vetting. By even the most lax judgments of character no one involved in this event is even remotely as dangerously extreme as Bill Ayers. These people likely don't even have speeding tickets and they give enormous sums of money away. Though Ayers name can't honestly or seriously be used in the same sentence as any of these others I do hope people keep bringing it up . It's not too late to shine the light on Obama and Ayers. Nothing Perry did from his official position/office is any different than our national leaders and Presidents have done for two plus centuries issuing public calls for national days of thanksgiving or national days of fasting and prayer to seek the favor of heaven. If you don't like it, change the channel. Tomorrow is likely to be brutal. America has no standing with God. We've exploited the poor and called good what God says is evil. This economic shaking ought to be wake up call. If I was in Houston yesterday I would have read Amos 2:6-8 and 4:6-12. America is in a season of sound discipline intended to get us to consider our ways. After sound discipline comes severe discipline. I guarantee the current occupant of the White House does not have the experience or character to lead a nation through the coming hard times. Character and the fear of the Lord are what we need to look for in a Presidential candidate. FYI I'm not backing Perry for President at this point, Cain interests me most but who knows at this point.
Rev. Hickey,
As way of introduction, I was Christian when Christian wasn't cool. I still have Larry Norman vinyl to prove it. (People of a certain age will note the irony of mentioning Larry Norman and paraphrasing a country song in such close proximity.)
I have a few problems with this particular event that are sincere and not snark.
First, this event exacerbated the perception that Perry and those in attendance believe they have God on their side. Lincoln famously gave a different formulation when he enjoined people to ask whether they were on God's side. In this as is many things, Lincoln proved to be a wise man.
Second, I think the event illustrates a problem that Paul writes about in I Corinthians 3. (I trust both God and men will forgive the presumption of quoting the Bible to a man of the cloth.)
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,†and another, “I follow Apollos,†are you not mere human beings?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Events such as these divide not only Christians and secularists or Christians and Muslims, but also Christians who believe their faith calls them to be politically "liberal" and those who believe their faith calls them to be "conservative." (I use the scare quotes here because I'm not sure what those labels mean in the current climate.) If I may change names to make them more current; this event implies that John Hage has labored mightily but Jim Wallis never built anything upon the foundation. I would guess that both mortal men have helped some and hindered others seeking the Kingdom.
Further, Governor Perry, Rep. Bachmnann, and Mr. Cain should be media savvy enough to know that the media narrative about events such as these will always be about the human politician not the God they claim to serve.
Events like the Perry event also bother me because I believe that the "effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" and the Lord is wherever two or three are gathered. These events seem to emphasize numbers in a way that is off-putting.
Finally, I may be both cynical and a bad Christian here, but I view the presidency the same way I view doctors. I would prefer to have a competent atheist over a mediocre believer in both situations. If I am undergoing surgery I trust my faith and the prayers of my mother and wife to get me through if it's God's will. With the politician, I'm not sure that I'm not tempting God in the same manner that the Devil tempted Jesus by taunting Jesus to jump off the temple roof. By trusting an incompetent, I'm asking for major miracles in the same way the Devil was.
One can argue that Perry is or is not more competent than Obama, but his ability to put create a high tech revival tent isn't proof of that competence.
Perry is a christian nationalist creep praying for the President and his family and he scares the living crap out of me. His message is clearly code for some Scott Roeder or Tim McVeigh type to off the executive and his veep so John Boehner would ascend into office.
Someone should sue Perry into poverty.
By even the most lax judgments of character no one involved in this event is even remotely as dangerously extreme as Bill Ayers.
There are millions of secularists, Jews and gays that might disagree with that statement Rev Hickey...
Hickey has short-guys' disease.
? There is no group in America that supports Jews and Israel more than these. This group is fully on the defense from militant angry gay activists bullies who have zero tolerance for any view but theirs. Larry, open your eyes to the real dangerous people in this world- do they scare the crap put of you or just these church-going moms and dads who see America getting hi-jacked.
Israel is an illegal state and should be returned to 1946 borders. People have asked me why ip never capitalizes christianity: because it's already capitalized.
Notice these imbeciles aren't coming to South Dakota?
No Biblical scholar would agree with you that Jesus was prohibiting any and all forms of public prayer. In my Sermon on the Mount book I talk about that text being a prohibition against praying for publicities sake, grandstanding; the Greek word for hypocrite is literally rendered play acting, it’s a word from the realm of theatre.
Rev. Hickey how else should we look at this spectacle? It was a nationally advertised event, It was called for by a person that just might run for the highest office in the nation, and every time you saw Perry he was selling this prayer event.
As for your contention “Yet of course it’s only Christian devotion that gets mocked, never Muslim†could it be because the Muslins never advertise when they are going to pray in this country? I'm not a Muslim so I guess I cant comment on that statement.
I will ask you this. Is your religious belief so shaky that you feel the need belittle all others to gain that magical elevator to heaven? Or are you just a plain old “religious bigot�
People that write books don’t scare me. People that preach the gospel of God don’t scare me either. It is when these same people try to pass themselves off as messengers of the Lord and its either their way or hell. That’s what scares me. It says in your own bible "beware of false profitsâ€, well its getting real hard to tell the real things from the jokes
If I have to kiss somebodies ass to get into heaven it better be the big guy. If I cant get there because of the deeds that I have done here on earth and how I treated the people around me “ both christens and those of other beliefs†I guess I just wont be going. I live by the Golden Rule.! It sounds very much like you only live by that rule if it is one of your own faith. Well stop it, your sanctimonious shorts are showing, and the world is watching.
There are none so blind then those that can not see. I am not one of those people.
I am The Blindman
Those church-going moms and dads are up to their areolae in debt and are praying the world goes to Helena in a handbasket so they can go back to zero.
There is no group in America that supports Jews and Israel more than these.
You mean besides "Response" sponsor, the International House of Prayer (really, IHOP)? Unless of course you think that telling your followers to pray for the conversion of Jews to Christianity in order to trigger the 2nd coming is pro-Jew.
And as for gay activist bullies, I didn't realize speaking out against those that claim gays were responsible for the Holocaust (AFA), will destroy the Earth (James Dobson), or are the pawns of Satan (Tony Perkins), would be considered bullys. All these claims and many more are regularly put forward by sponsors of Perry's rally
IHOP doesnt teach converting Jews ushers in the Secong Coming, nothing even close. Hagee teaches that Jews don't need to accept Christ as they are saved through the Abrahamic Covenant. Perry is Methodist, there were Catholics, Pentecostals and all other flavors of Christianity and doctrinal variety on that platform. One thing brought them together, a conviction that America needs to cry out to God. It would have been the preference of those organizing this that the media sit this one out as they have no grid (as we are seeing in this string) to correctly interpret what its about. No speaker except Perry was announced ahead of time and his name was out front only because he invited 50 governors.Â
Hickey is full of it, too.
If they didn't want the media, Perry could have entered without fanfare or the media attention that an invitation to 50 governors necessitates.
Second, no one on that list can be called politically liberal. The guest list seems designed to show that only conservatives believe "America needs to cry out to God." That message is patently false and unnecessarily divisive. It also seems to have been sent intentionally.
My greatest fear for American Christianity is not that the state will control it but that it will confuse serving God with serving party or state. Liberals and conservatives have been guilty of that error, but events such as these seem to perpetuate it proudly.
jesus® is a registered trademark of the military/industrial complex and is looking for the next neighborhood to bomb into the paleozoic.
Brannon Howse warns that this event was not biblical and why the New Religious Right is off base:
The Response, as this event is being called, is being promoted as a time of prayer and repentance. However, how can Christians and Christian leaders gather together in a spiritual enterprise, a spiritual service, with individuals that embrace a theology and doctrine that teaches a different Jesus and a different gospel? I and thousands of pastors and theologians believe that the Word of God reveals that the teaching of the New Apostolic Reformation, the Word of Faith movement and the prosperity gospel is completely unbiblical.
Worldview Weekend has been warning about the unbiblical aspect of the prosperity gospel for years. Here is a link to one of our DVDs we produced in which Dr. Ron Carlson was warning of the unbiblical nature of the prosperity gospel.
Some would try and accuse me of guilt by association. However, I do not believe those participating in The Response, and other such projects, are guilty by association but guilty by participation. I believe they are guilty of giving credibility to false teachers by choosing to unite with false teachers. Ephesians 5:11 says, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." 2 Timothy 3:5 says "and from such people turn away."
It appears that the religious right in America has openly embraced, for the sake of political pragmatism, the New Apostolic Reformation, the Word of Faith Movement, and the proponents of the prosperity gospel. This is not a new trend. To the shock of many, a strange coalition of religious activists united at Liberty University in 2010 and 2011.
Pastor James Robison, on his website, wrote about "supernatural gatherings" and listed "those who attended one or both Leadership Summits along with those who encouraged and assisted in bringing about the gatherings." The list included men whose ministries I have respected but also prosperity preachers I have refuted.
I fear the American church is following in the steps of the "German Christians" that eliminated their denominations and abandoned doctrinal purity in order to unite under the Reich Bishop so they might save their country. Nationalism or ecumenical patriotism, mysticism, and a lack of biblical discernment which leads to tolerance of false teaching are growing in America.
In April of 2011, I wrote an article entitled,
"Christians That Partner with False Teachers and Think They are Defending Liberty for the Sake of the Gospel are Compromising the Gospel for the Sake of Liberty."
Here is the link:
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7372
Too bad you're considered a crackpot like ip is, Steve. What about a recall petition for Marty Jackley for being a capitalized christian defending a state that routinely kills children with ordnance from 35,000 feet but believes the preborn should be protected by law?
I read through the comments with interest and after going to church yesterday where I was once again reminded that we must be humble and not assume to know the will or plan of God. I truly can't say how God views this gathering of Governor Perry's. However, for myself, based upon my own values and beliefs, I do not appreciate this stunt pulled by Gov. Perry. I would like my Presidential candidate to be strong enough Christians not to have to wear it like a Hawaiian shirt or wave it like a baton in the parade.
As for Rev. Hickey's self quoted work, I'm it's a good book with a truly description of his belief and how we should react to the current world. However, I discovering an older Christian Scholar who's following quote has caused me a lot of thought lately.
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign." - Martin Luther
Sibby great post and link. Thanks
Frank James another good post. And thanks to you to
The Blindman
Christ, if truly having had an historical person-hood, was only human. Christians who believe in a divinity live in illusion. The God Illusion. If you think of a human as anything more than a teacher, leader, gardener, you live in illusion also. I wish you could see this simple truth. Justice and kindness, caring and stewardship, have little to do with the concept of Christ or a Father God. Religion offers solace and power. God answers in silence to those who will listen.
10 things that can sink Perry: http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/06/10/241830/top-10-thing-texas-gov-rick-perry/
Hickey,
I will have you know that ALL religious groups in this country are mocked on a daily basis. ESPECIALLY Muslims these days. I have a close Muslim friend who cannot go one day of her life without so-called 'good Christian people' kicking her, spitting at her, cussing at her, and so on. She is American born and has never had anything to do with religious extremism. I think it is time Christians woke up and realized that while they cry 'persecution, persecution' that they are turning right around and doing the same thing to every other religious group out there. If you (the general Christian public, not literally you) have to spend your time tearing down other religions and ways of life, a. your own religious beliefs have some serious self-esteem issues and b. your losing sight of what you should be looking at. I am sick and tired of watching (again) 'good Christian people' make life Hell for all other groups, on the idea that bullying and slandering is going to lead everyone to the "One" path. If there is only one way, why is it that there are so many varying sects of Christianity itself? I have been to more churches than I can count, and each one has its own doctrine. Is that the ideals of god? Is THIS the meaning of Christianity? Somehow I don't think so.
On a general note: I challenge everyone on here to tell me what religion this country was founded on, and do your research- you'll be very surprised. Next, read the first amendment and tell me what religions are included in that statement. The terms 'god' 'divinity' 'jesus' etc. are NOT anywhere in our Constitution. Now we need to ask ourselves why. The Founding Fathers had specific reasons for setting this country up the way they did. If you want a conservative Christian rule- go back to Europe.
Frank James, with kindness of heart I hope the following helps with the comment in the first sentence you offered. I keep these noted on the first page of my bible as a reminder for when I doubt that God has His will for my life.
God's Will -
Saved 2 Pet 3:9
Spirit Filled Eph 5:15-18
Sanctified 1 Thes 4:3,4
Submissive 1 Pet 2:13-15
Suffer 1 Pet 4:12-19
Brought forth in truth James 1:18
Freedom Phil 2:13 and Ps 37:4
Worship John 4:24