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GOP Debt Clock Ignores Sources of Debt: Tax Cuts, War, Bush Recession

Last updated on 2012.09.15

Alas, like Pat, I'm not in Tampa to live-blog the GOP convention. Of course, my humble family doesn't even have cable, so we cannot entrance ourselves with the great wall of crap.

But I hear the Republicans put up a national debt clock. This visual aid says nothing about what a President Romney would do to slow down or spin backwards that clock.

It also ignores the important discussion of where that debt has come from. Ezra Klein fills that gap:

U.S. National Debt components, CBPP 2012

The biggest chunk of the national debt is the tax cuts President George W. Bush passed in 2001 and 2003. President Barack Obama extended those tax cuts in 2010, given fears that letting taxes return to pre-2001 rates would hinder recovery from the recession. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan promise to cut even more taxes.

The next biggest contributors to the debt are the economic downturn, which drove down revenues, and our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which among the GOP choices only Ron Paul would have ended immediately. That skinny dark blue line is the TARP and Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac bailouts necessitated by the 2008 economic crisis.

So consider: if the Bush era hadn't happened, if we hadn't returned to failed trickle-down economics and global butt-kicking and poorly regulated Wall Street gambling, that clock on the GOP stage would be spinning much less quickly.


  1. Stan Gibilisco 2012.08.29

    I can't believe it -- you're still blaming Bush for all this. Oh, so, sooo, sooooooo tired!

    True, but tired.

  2. Stan Gibilisco 2012.08.29

    Not only did Bush cause the assassination of Julius Caesar, the Civil War, and the rise of the Third Reich ... not only that, but he's also responsible for stuff that hasn't even happened yet, and might not happen at all.

  3. Dougal 2012.08.29

    Is that because Bill Clinton caused tax cuts for the rich, two wars put on the credit card and deregulation of the financial sector which caused the housing and credit disaster and put millions out of work? Hmmm? There's a reason they call it The Great Recession, Stan.

    Nobody learns anything from the second kick of the mule. Electing Romney, who has promised to unleash the dogs on Wall Street and is surrounding himself with the neocons who lied our nation into the Iraqi War, guarantees a return to ruin.

  4. Jana 2012.08.29

    Stan, you are right, it is tiresome. But so is the collective Etch-a-Sketch mentality of the GOP.

    Last night Chris Christie is talking about Dems driving us off the fiscal cliff...totally forgetting that it was his party that decided to play Thelma and Louise flooring it to the precipice.

  5. Justin 2012.08.29

    Why is CH always so angry? I've gone over the past couple weeks of posts and somebody better get this guy a stiff drink.

  6. Jana 2012.08.29

    Speaking of that debt you suppose they'll bring up what the Romney tax cuts or the Ryan plan would do to the velocity of spinning wheel?

    Dougal, Romney has also surrounded himself with the old Bush economic team...go figure.

  7. Jana 2012.08.29

    Stan, I get the sarcasm of the Civil War, Julius Ceaser and the Third Reich...but Bush is still on the hook (good or bad) for things that haven't happened yet if they were founded in the policies he put forth while he was leading the country for 8 years. Same as any other leader would be.

    Think of the mistakes that Gil Amelio made at Apple and how long it took for Steve Jobs to get the company turned around again. Amelio's decisions and policies had a lasting effect long after he was gone.

  8. Rorschach 2012.08.29

    If the GOP did away with all of the half-truths they were putting out, they wouldn't have any truth at all left.

  9. Bill Dithmer 2012.08.29

    Thanks Cory. The graph is pretty but the real story of our great national debt started over a hundred years ago.

    It started with a panic and then a run on the banks in 1907. It was decided at that time that we needed some protection from this sort of thing so in 1913 during the administration of Woodrow Wilson the Federal Reserve was born. It was created to help banks withstand runs and was the lender of last resort when financial troubles hit the country.

    I'm going to C&P some of this because I don't type that good.

    That means that it doesn't matter if the economy is good or bad they still bring in money. It wasn't until the 30s that we learned more about this bunch. By then it was to late to late to do anything about it.

    This came from Louis McFadden, Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee in the 1930s.

    "Some people think that the Federal Reserve Banks are United States Government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders."

    Get the picture?

    "The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation’s central banking system, are organized much like private corporations – possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year."

    Those dividends came from the taxpayers. Remember that for future reference.

    We had started to recover from the depression when the best thing that could happen to the US happened. WWII. Everyone was asked to make sacrifices and they did. Everyone that is except the FED. When the war machine started to crank up and there were massive amounts of munitions, planes, ships, and all the goodies that went with war, the FED spent money to finance a good part of that war, all the time making money themselves.

    When the war ended there were going to be millions of people out of jobs that had been directly involved with the effort to stop the Nazis machine. Instead more money was lent to build factories. That money came from the FED because nobody else had any.

    We quickly started down one of the most prosperous times in US history. All that time most ordinary people didn't have a clue what was going on and they really didn't give a damn as long as they were making money and having fun. Everyone that is except the people that made vast amounts of money building everything needed to fight a war. But that again was about to change with the advent of the Korean conflict.

    Somewhere along the line we decided that communism was that main threat to our safety as a country so off to war we went again. Those people that had been hooked on the government teat were again rolling in the money at they expense of the taxpayer. Again the money used came from loans that went through the FED. War might be hell but it is also a hell of a good way to make money if you are in the right business.

    For most people, but not all , prosperity continued through the Korean conflict. New cars, new homes, and grilling in the back yard became the norm for the masses. Life was good. Unless you were black. Then not so much.

    Then along came the cold war and again massive buildup of our military complex. More money was needed to keep US going and it came from the FED. Then more threats were perceived in south east Asia, Vietnam to be exact. Again everyone lost except the people that made the war possible including the FED.

    Then came the next hole in the dike. Nixon was left holding the bag for the Vietnam war. The FED had bottomless pockets but it was stalling and not wanting to lend money like it had been before. Dick thought that the only way out was to go off of the Gold Standard. So we started to print money without the backing of precious metals.

    Then came a new war, the war on poverty. Print more money. This cost a lot of money and caused the slowdown in the late seventies. Print more money. Carter was a great man but got a bad deal when he took office and it cost him a second term. When Ron came along he talked about NO NEW TAXES for the first six months and then he had to raise taxes or slow the economy down so much that the country again got depressed.

    All through these years the military machine was growing and sucking more money out of the treasury. A good part of that money came from the FED. Then to protect our, "the oil companies" interest in the far east, we went to war in Iraq. Even more money was spent without accomplishing anything of interest except the loss of human lives, and money. But life in the 90s was good for the American people, more building and more spending. To much spending to the point that not only was the country in debt but most of the people living here also carried a big debt.

    We also had another problem in that we were no longer a builder nation. Everything that we used was produced somewhere else in the world, not here. The rich owners had moved the jobs offshore for cheaper labor and left many without jobs. At the same time we needed more then the FED could provide so we started to barrow from other countries, China being the main one but not the only one.

    All this time we continued to spend money like there was no tomorrow but during the Clinton administration it caught up with us and things had to change. Agreements between the administration and congress started the process of healing but without the gold standard to back us up we were only printing paper to pay our debts. A lot of that paper changed hands in the late 90s in the stock market because of the profits caused by the movers and shakers on the net.

    Then on 9 11 we had to opportunity to again go to war so that George Bush could avenge his daddies failure in the first Iraq war. The congress gave the military a blank cheek for that war, both the dems and the pubs, so we cant blame either one more then the other. Then came another war that should have been fought first and more US debt. And that brings us up to 2008.

    China didn't want to lend us money at the cheap rate that had been driving us and we had to make a change. When that happened people could no longer get loans people lost jobs, homes, retirements, and the cost of living went through the roof. We again went to the FED for help.

    Remember that 6%? Now think about this.

    "The U.S. Federal Reserve gained a key tactical tool from the $700 billion financial rescue package signed into law that helped it channel funds into parched credit markets. Tucked into the 451-page bill is a provision that lets the Fed pay interest on the reserves banks are required to hold at the central bank.

    In its latest power play, on October 3, 2008, the Fed acquired the ability to pay interest to its member banks on the reserves the banks maintain at the Fed. Reuters reported on October 3rd.

    In September 2008, the Federal Reserve did something even more unprecedented, when it bought the world’s largest insurance company. The Fed announced on September 16 that it was giving an $85 billion loan to American International Group (AIG) for a nearly 80% stake in the mega-insurer. The Associated Press called it a "government takeover," but this was no ordinary nationalization. Unlike the U.S. Treasury, which took over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac the week before, the Fed is not a government-owned agency. Also unprecedented was the way the deal was funded.

    "The Treasury Department, for the first time in its history, said it would begin selling bonds for the Federal Reserve in an effort to help the central bank deal with its unprecedented borrowing needs.

    This is extraordinary. Why did Treasury start issuing U.S. government bonds (or debt) to fund the Fed, which is itself supposedly "the lender of last resort" created to fund the banks and the federal government?

    "When the Federal Reserve writes a check for a government bond it does exactly what any bank does, it creates money, it created money purely and simply by writing a check." The interest on bonds acquired with its newly-issued Federal Reserve Notes pays the Fed’s operating expenses plus a guaranteed 6% return to its banker shareholders.

    In addition to this guaranteed 6%, the banks will now be getting interest from the taxpayers on their "reserves." The basic reserve requirement set by the Federal Reserve is 10%. The website of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York explains that as money is redeposit and relent throughout the banking system, this 10% held in "reserve" can be fanned into ten times that sum in loans; that is, $10,000 in reserves becomes $100,000 in loans. Federal Reserve Statistical Release H.8 puts the total "loans and leases in bank credit" as of September 24, 2008 at $7,049 billion. Ten percent of that is $700 billion. That means we the taxpayers will be paying interest to the banks on at least $700 billion annually – this so that the banks can retain the reserves to accumulate interest on ten times that sum in loans. Just think what it is now.

    All of this took place just as our present chief took office. Its hard to hold onto a fragile economy when you have been handed what is on the dirty end of a toilet brush and expected to make it smell better in four years. It cant be done. Add the implosion of the world s economies and you have the perfect storm.

    No one man or party can escape blame for what has happened. From Wilson to Obama they just kept spending and spending. In my own mind I see it this way. When we went off of the Gold Standard to keep us out of a depression, it started us down the long road to where we are today. I'm not sure that we can fix something broken this bad but we might.

    Last year the Republican led house passed a bill that would have put our economy back on the Gold Standard knowing full well that the senate wouldn't go along with it. It was only a show folks because the house didn't want it any more then the senate did, they were doing it for show.

    I keep hearing people saying buy gold, buy gold. I don't know what the secret is here but if you do some looking there isn't enough gold right now to fill the gold certificates that are being issued. That means that those certificates are only paper doesn't it? We are back to square one.

    The Blindman

  10. Stace Nelson 2012.08.29

    Really? Claiming taxpayer's monies, that they were allowed to rightfully keep, as blame for the current debt? What about the economic stimulus those monies created by people using them to invest, build, buy, that created economic growth that WAS taxed?

    Yes, people.. raise taxes and spend. It has bailed out Ca, Il, Mn, Nj, Ny's economies so well they are able to donate $ billions to SD. Ohhh wait, no it has NOT.

    Stop crony capitalism, stop spending, and cut government.

  11. Rorschach 2012.08.29

    I don't know what flag that is on the "Cracker Bay" yacht, but I do know it's not the US flag. I'm sure all of the crackers had a good time partying on the bay in that yacht. Whoever owns that un-American yacht could afford to pay off Booker's share of the national debt a few times over. It's time for the Bush tax cuts to expire.

    And Jana, I've never envied any of Jon Stewart's correspondents as much as I did last night. Hard duty they are pulling down in Tampa. Hard.

  12. owen 2012.08.29

    What do you want to cut Stace? Medicare, Social Security which is what Romney/Ryan want to do and at the same time give more tax breaks to the rich?
    Typical Republican response-stop spending and cut taxes. Lets hear specifics.
    Romney wants to do what Bush tried to do and thats been proved not to work

  13. larry kurtz 2012.08.29

    If this was John Kerry's yacht the earth haters would be having a cow.

  14. Bill Fleming 2012.08.29

    Pretty sure Stace will want to cut military spending and bring his brother and sister soldiers home, right Stacy? Stace? Nelson? Buehler? Anyone? Anyone?

  15. Donald Pay 2012.08.29

    The budget was balanced when Bush took office, though there was a reasonable level of debt. If you disagree with the facts presented by Cory, what facts do you bring to the table to account for the vast increase in debt under Bush II, and extended outward, as a result of policies passed by the Republicans? I think that Obama made a mistake in extending the Bush tax cuts. It would have been far better to let them expire.

  16. G-Man 2012.08.29

    They only brought out the Debt Clock to stick it to the President. Where was the Debt Clock during the 2004 and 2008 Republican Conventions? Oh, yah and will it be there during the 2016 Convention when ol' Mittens confidently believes he will be up for his "second term?"

  17. G-Man 2012.08.29

    Gov. Christie said that we have had four years of no bi-partisanship in D.C. Hmmm... and why have we not had that? Who has reached out and got the partisan door slammed in his face every time? Hmmm...what Party, once they got control of the House has taken every opportunity to deny working with the President on anything? It seems to me that the Republicans have become the Party of Bull Crap. LOL

  18. Stan Gibilisco 2012.08.29

    Bush is to blame for our woes, and more to come. But every time a Democrat says so, s/he hurts the party.

    For your own good, Dems, lay off that dead horse. It makes you look like crybabies.

    Romney and Ryan's policies would result in high-tech Orwellian feudalism. Even Bush wasn't that bad.

    I hope Gary Johnson is on the SD ballot.

  19. Stan Gibilisco 2012.08.29

    As long as we're bringing up old names ... I wonder what President Al Gore would have done after 9/11?

  20. larry kurtz 2012.08.29

    the dots would have been connected, stan: like to watch my head spin on my neck?

  21. Donald Pay 2012.08.29

    Are facts something that people don't want to be confronted with? Yet we heard all these Republicans last night talking about leveling with the American people, telling the truth, etc. Well, it would be nice if that party could tell the difference between the truth and the myths they tell themselves. If people want to believe the lies, they'll get what the deserve, but you still have to tell the truth, and if the truth is not politically correct, that's too damn bad.

  22. LK 2012.08.29

    "Romney and Ryan’s policies would result in high-tech Orwellian feudalism. Even Bush wasn’t that bad.

    I hope Gary Johnson is on the SD ballot."

    Perfect analysis, Stan

  23. Stace Nelson 2012.08.29

    @Owen when I started with NIS/NCIS March 1993, we had a couple SESers, and sparse high grade (GS-14s & 15s) through out the agency with about half of the agents NCIS has now. Since 9/11? NCIS exploded with money, senior positions, staff positions, and HQ billets. For many years they had a wonderful crony program of hiring back on 50-100 retired senior managers, at full retirement & active pay, to do field work they hadn't done in 20 years, instead of hiring new hires at 1/2 the cost! The problem with government is that its natural agenda is to grow. Such agencies need to be streamlined, some need to be whacked 100% or combined into others. I am with Ron Paul on whacking some of the departments.

    Evict 12 Million illegals through enforcement and fines. Stop the bleed of those monies leaving our economy and take that section of our population off the drain on our social programs and watch what happens. 12 million jobs will be available, and businesses will have to compete for legal labor via better salaries. Those 12 million jobs would have to start paying federal income taxes, which they are by a large % not doing now.

    There are plenty things that could be accomplished, all the while safeguarding our social safeguards, if the proper priority was given to what is important, the American taxpaying voter.

  24. larry kurtz 2012.08.29

    Many of those "illegals" are serving as escorts for the Romulans carousing in Tampa: Ann Romney said that Willard loves doubt here.

  25. Bill Fleming 2012.08.29


    1. Can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?

    2. Can you cite the number people the Obama Administrated has deported and compare it with all other US Presidents?

    3. Thank you, Mr. Nelson.

  26. Bill Fleming 2012.08.29

    "Administration" sorry. Siri can't hear worth a darn sometimes. ;^)

  27. Vincent Gormley 2012.08.29

    Hold on folks. You are sounding like tired cicadas. The truth never ever gets old. Embrace it and deal with it or ignoring it will forever hold you back.

  28. David Newquist 2012.08.29

    When established and verified causes are dismissed because they are tiresome or can be dismissed as crying or whining, the country simply cannot deal with them to any constructive end.

  29. larry kurtz 2012.08.29

    You guys see this?

    "In fact, government documents on the bailout obtained by Rolling Stone show that the legend crafted by Romney is basically a lie. The federal records, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal that Romney’s initial rescue attempt at Bain & Company was actually a disaster – leaving the firm so financially strapped that it had “no value as a going concern.”

    Even worse, the federal bailout ultimately engineered by Romney screwed the FDIC – the bank insurance system backed by taxpayers – out of at least $10 million."

  30. Bill Fleming 2012.08.29

    Dr. Newquist, would the short way
    of saying that be "You can't fix stupid."?

    Just checkin'.

  31. Dougal 2012.08.29

    Thank you Ron White!

  32. David Newquist 2012.08.29

    Well, sort of. It gains something in the translation.

  33. Douglas Wiken 2012.08.29

    "When established and verified causes are dismissed because they are tiresome or can be dismissed as crying or whining, the country simply cannot deal with them to any constructive end."

    And the other side of this coin is calling something like Ryan's economic mythology "original", "thought provoking", etc. It is actually destructive obstructionist nonsense that hasn't worked in the past and won't work in the future. The Republicans are apparently praying for economic Apocalypse sooner rather than later or never.

  34. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.08.29

    Larry, so does the Rolling Stone article say that Romney himself contributed to the debt?

  35. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.08.29

    Stace, I have to agree with Bill. The Obama Administration has taken deportation seriously. They've been helped by a flagging economy reducing job opportunities. But even if Obama granted amnesty, there'd be no debt harm. Actually, illegal immigrants may have a net positive effect on our fiscal situation, paying sales taxes, paying into Medicare and Social Security, and subsidizing agriculture with cheap labor. And even if illegal immigrants were a net fiscal negative, their use of social services if far outweighed by the above-charted tax cuts, wars, recession, and stimulus.

  36. Donald Pay 2012.08.29

    I'm listening to the Ryan speech, and it's clear that the only thing left the Republicans have left are lies about the economy. Ryan is telling one lie after the other, but the sheep are eating it up. Are they really that dumb, or just want to believe, like the Germans with Hitler?

    The one that strikes close to home, and may cost him Wisconsin, is the Janesville GM plant, which Ryan says was closed under Obama. But everyone here knows full well that GM announced the closure in 2008 under Bush.

    That lie may have cost Romney the election.

  37. JoeBoo 2012.08.29

    The problem with the debt is that no one wants to talk serious issues. And that includes Paul Ryan, the T-Party and yes even Democrats. And when you play politics with the debt you cause more problems like a lower credit rating and nothing getting done.

    The facts are the United States spends way to much money on defense, but the Republicans will not touch it, and very few Tea-Party members will as well. They love War, and they don't care if they are paid for or not. They love way too many military bases, in way to many areas of the world. Too much political power (from both sides) causes inefficient bases and military post being kept open in way too many areas.

    Yes there needs to be changes to entitlements, but they need to be honest ones. Democrats need to bend on some issues, but the GOP needs to be honest on the issues. Saying that Obamacare raids the Medicare trust fun is just a flat out lie. Saying that he ended the work requirements on wellfare is a lie. And all what lies do is make people less likely to come up with a deal.

    So we need to take all the issues and cut everything. The Bush Tax-cuts had an end date on them for a reason, if they were meant to be permanent they would have been, and we can't make the argument that the economy needs them. Because they didn't need them in the 90's, they don't need them now.

    So we can cut discressionary spending, and social wellfare programs but at the same time we need to cut big issues as well. That includes military. But even if we cut a ton, we need to increase revenue, and even though every supply-sider will tell you its tax cuts (on the rich) that will do it, it won't. small tax raises that start at the top and would generally be increased the entire way down is the way to go. Some loopholes need to be taken out.

    Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney like to say we would end every loophole, but fail to mention which ones. Some of them are good for the economy, if the homeowner tax credit was taken out, or the option to write off the interest, the housing market would tumble into a crisis that made 08 look like a blimp on the graph.

  38. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    "illegal immigrants may have a net positive effect on our fiscal situation"

    Cory illegals increase unemployment, thus increasing welfare payments. Better correct your position.

  39. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    "The facts are the United States spends way to much money on defense, but the Republicans will not touch it, and very few Tea-Party members will as well."

    This is for the left and the rithg, the US has been given the duty on world police force sincee WWII by the New World Order. Blame the wealthy ruling elitists in both parties and their international cohorts.

  40. Jana 2012.08.30

    The whole GOP campaign is built on lies...and yes Mitt...You did build it!

    Ryan's speech last night was a fact checker's job security for life. The welfare to work ads are a bald faced lie and yet...they say they are not going to let their campaign decisions be made by fact checkers.

    Sadly, the willfully ignorant or willfully misinformed of the GOP eat this up and don't really care.

    And yes, it does matter for South Dakota as these are the same lies that will be parroted by Kristi and the gang during their campaigns.

  41. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    Never seen anything quite like it, Cory. The GOP campaign is largely based on a series of bare faced, flat-out lies. And they continue to repeat them, even when the are shown clear evidence that what they're saying is demonstrably false. Shameless dishonesty seems to be the order of the day. It's a Brave New World.

  42. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    Cory & Bill, if it was not for the free ride for sluggards welfare system, those jobs would be done by Americans. Amazing how you bid government activists use governemnt programs to create a proglem only to use governemnt to solve that poblem, but instead only create more government solutions....on and on and on...until you have the massive federal debt we have today.

  43. larry kurtz 2012.08.30

    It's stupefying. John Thune embarrassed himself, too.

    Hear Doug Wead describe how Willard has controlled the process and will control the 2016 cycle? NPR

  44. Linda 2012.08.30

    We have proof that the Bush tax cuts didn't work and we have proof that deregulation of the finance industry almost destroyed the economy. The new Republicans want both of those things. Whose side are they on?

  45. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    "The GOP campaign is largely based on a series of bare faced, flat-out lies."

    And the Democrats are doing teh same thing. I have said several times that politics is a fake fight designed to distract us from the truth. The truth is both parties want illegal immigration, it helps to grow government, which both parites want. It is all about control of the indoctrinated masses.

  46. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    "We have proof that the Bush tax cuts didn’t work and we have proof that deregulation of the finance industry almost destroyed the economy."

    The finance industry makes money on debt, regulated means those who run the finance industry can keep out competition. What side are you on? The crony capitalists?

  47. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    Steve, pick a position and stay with it. You're bouncing off the walls. When you throw out every argument, you don't make any argument.

  48. Jana 2012.08.30

    Linda. Maybe they should change their little chant from "We Built It" to "We Bilked It"

  49. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    "You’re bouncing off the walls."

    That is coming from a political activist who believes the other side is completely wrong. That one cannot say both sides are wrong. Very two-dimensional and simple thinking.

  50. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    When you can't even pass the Fox News smell test, you have a serious credibility problem, don't you?

    You have to be able to tell the difference between fact and fiction, Sibby, truth and lies.

    For the most part, your ramblings are simply delusional.

    Your saving grace is that you can always just plead insanity (or perhaps have someone like me do it for you, because you are incapable of seeing it on your own).

    There is, after all a significant difference between being intentionally deceitful and just plain nuts. So, you get a pass, buddy.

  51. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    Fleming both sides are lying so you need to take your own advice.

  52. Jana 2012.08.30

    Sibby, please don't start with the false equivalencies.

  53. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    "Sibby, please don’t start with the false equivalencies."

    Jana stop with the false fight. It is very divisive. You would think a pantheistic monist like Fleming would appreciate that warning.

  54. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    Jana, rabbit hole alert. Proceed with caution. ;^)

  55. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    Instead the pantheistic monist fosters more hate and division.

  56. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    Sibby's raving is like a black hole, complete with invisible event horizon. Once you cross the threshold, you get stretched out into an infinitely long, multi-dimensional string of photons, quarks and gluons and start giving off a strong, radioactive fizz. All heat. No substance, no light. Not pretty. All you can do is ride it out and hope you can somehow pop back out the other side and reassemble.

  57. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    Fleming allways gets very angry when he loses a debate.

  58. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    (See? Sibby thinks were "debating." LOL)

  59. Steve Sibson 2012.08.30

    Bill, I am, you are being a troll.

  60. Bill Fleming 2012.08.30

    Sibby, I ripped your and Stace's irrational, bigoted arguments to shreds in two posts. Stace was smart and dropped out. You on the other hand...

  61. larry kurtz 2012.08.30

    How's your day going, Steve? Being a Cancerian during a full moon means not wanting to kick you in the nards for a couple of days.

  62. Stace Nelson 2012.08.30

    Bigot? The old rallying cry of the failed liberal argument.

    Your ignorance pales in consideration of my Filipina wife, my half Japanese daughters, my half black sister, and my black nephew's opinion of me.

    Sorry, while my objections to illegal immigration are first for the adverse problems it brings to America, I am also against it because of the exploitation of those who are abused via that modern day slavery.

    Refresh my memory, who was it that enacted Jim Crow laws and supported slavery with the very same arguments?

  63. Charlie Hoffman 2012.08.31

    Wow. Liberal negative spin! That's all you guys have left.

    God Bless America and may God bless Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan!!!!

  64. Dave 2012.08.31

    Yes, after this week, and especially after last night's debacle, Mitt and Paul will definitely need God's help. And redemption for constantly breaking the ninth commandment.

  65. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.08.31

    Charlie, you can't dismiss arguments by shouting "spin" and then invoking God. As Dave says, after this convention, Romney, Ryan, and all Republicans in Tampa need forgiveness more than blessing.

  66. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    1. Can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?
    2. Can you cite the number people the Obama Administrated has deported and compare it with all other US Presidents?
    3. Thank you, Mr. Nelson.

  67. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    1. Who said anything about only the government deporting?
    2. Can you look it up yourself, or are your fingers broken?
    3. Eased off the bigot comments have we?
    4. How is advocating for the status quo, of illegal immigrants being kept in exploitative situations, not modern day slavery and a flashback of Democratic positions in the early 1800's?

  68. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Stace, once again, this time with feeling:
    1. Can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?
    2. Can you cite the number people the Obama Administrated has deported and compare it with all other US Presidents?
    3. Thank you, Mr. Nelson (p.s. how long do you want to keep doing this?)

  69. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Bill, once more time with the same nonchalant lack of investment in your trivial departure from the real issue:
    1. Who said anything about only the government deporting?
    2. Can you look it up yourself, or are your fingers broken?
    3. Eased off the bigot comments have we?
    4. How is advocating for the status quo, of illegal immigrants being kept in exploitative situations, not modern day slavery and a flashback of Democratic positions in the early 1800′s?

  70. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Check mate.

  71. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Three strikes and you're out, Nelson. If you can't field the rebuttal, you give up your time at bat. No need for extra innings. Come back when you've got some answers, kid.

  72. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    I have an acquaintance that claims to support liberal ideas and Pres. Obama. He also has a habit of consuming a case of Budweiser a day. He will text me late in the evening with contrary messages and then claim imaginary points if I don't respond immediately to his slurred slurs.

    Yep, you got me Bill, you're the winner..

  73. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "Sibby, I ripped your and Stace’s irrational, bigoted arguments to shreds in two posts."

    In your dream world. You have not refuted that both parties want illegal immigration, but for different reasons.

  74. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "The man is a contagious pathological liar."

    So is Obama. That is the job of politicians in both parties.

  75. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Oops, sorry Bill! Imaginary rule #21, if you fail to use the name "Humpty Dumpty" in your response, you automatically lose the argument and your birthday.. Take to celebrating a birth festival during leap years, you will live longer and feel younger..

  76. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "God Bless America and may God bless Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan!!!!"

    So Charlie, who is the Mormon god?

  77. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "Romney, Ryan, and all Republicans in Tampa need forgiveness more than blessing."

    No Cory, they need repentence, just like Obama.

  78. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "1. Can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?

    2. Can you cite the number people the Obama Administrated has deported and compare it with all other US Presidents?"

    Again Bill, both parties want illegal immigrants. You have yet to rebut that truth.

  79. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "Check mate."

    Fleming, stop being a troll and debate the issue.

  80. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    LOL. This is what it looks like when Stace and Sibby both go off their meds at the same time. Great!

  81. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Bill Fleming bag of last resort tricks when argument is lost:

    #1 Call opponent racist (check)
    #2 Claim opponent is unhinged or on medication (check)
    #3 Stomp feet and pout with sad face (check)
    #4 Call into question opponents mother's virtues
    #5 Yell "I am rubber, you are glue, everything you say bounces of me and sticks to you!"
    #6 Yell I know you are, but what am I?"

  82. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    You know what? Maybe the questions are just too hard for one guy to answer. How 'bout we divide the up, one each:

    1. Sibby, can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?

    2. And Stace, can you cite the number people the Obama Administration has deported and compare it with all other US Presidents?

    3. Thank you gentlemen!

    (p.s. Stace, I haven't accused either of you of being "racist." I used the word "bigoted" and it was in reference to your arguments, not either of you personally. And yes, I think you are both nuttier than a couple of fruitcakes, but that's a side issue.)

  83. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    Stace understands the power of sizeism employing brute strength and power from a law enforcement perspective.

    Today's oxymoron: criminal justice.

  84. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Vocabulary lesson:



    Obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one's own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.

    Expressing or characterized by prejudice and intolerance.

  85. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    *quick cut to Nelson and Sibson sulking in dugout*

  86. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Bill, you look good with that red hair and handlebar mustache.

    Mnom, nom, nom, your lunch was delicious..

  87. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "I used the word “bigoted” and it was in reference to your arguments, not either of you personally"

    Typical Fleming, claim he is not doing what he is doing. You are a troll Fleming. You are not relevant and neither are your questions.

  88. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    1. Sibby, can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?

    2. And Stace, can you cite the number people the Obama Administration has deported and compare it with all other US Presidents?

    3. Thank you gentlemen!

  89. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    Here is a question that relates to the debt issue that this post is suppose to address:

    Who makes money on the federal debt?

    Can Fleming answer a very simple question?

  90. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    The irrelevant Fleming cannot answer a simple question. Here are two illegals that were not deported by Obama that murdered a US citiaens are is costing the taxpayers dearly:

    The trial for Diaz was scheduled to begin Sept. 10 in Sioux Falls but has now been indefinitely continued while prosecutors pursue an appeal of the judge’s decision to the state Supreme Court.

    Diaz is from Fort Wayne, Ind., but was living in Mitchell at the time of the alleged crime. Diaz allegedly participated in the murder with Alexander Salgado, who has already been convicted. Both are originally from Mexico and are in the country illegally.

    Salgado pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in August 2010 in connection with Guevara’s death and is serving a life sentence at the South Dakota State Penitentiary in Sioux Falls. Diaz could face life in prison if convicted but, because of her age at the time of the crime, could not be sentenced to death.

  91. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    Problems with Cory's graph:

    1) The X axis is in percent not dollars.
    2) The graph goes past the time Bush was President.
    3) The graph goes past today.

    Perfect example of a tactic used to deceive the people.

  92. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    1. Sibby, can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?

  93. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    ...proof that Sibby is incapable of comprehending clear communications materials even when someone draws him a picture. LOL.

  94. Dougal 2012.08.31

    "1. Sibby, can you name one country on earth that has ever deported 12 million people in a two or three year time frame?"

    Bill, the Nazis gave it a try but only transported 6 million in 12 years ... and then they lost the war.

  95. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Dougal, exactly.

  96. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Well, Sibby, we won the debate. Dougal cited Nazis as an inference.

    Steve, do not pay attention to the over $400,000 that has cost Hanson County so far because of illegal immigrant crime. The governor's office, 19 lobbyists, and Bill claim that it is not a problem therefor we should not do anything about it. The exploitation of these people is good for the economy, hmmmm sounds vaguely familiar... Wasn't that the Democratic position before the Republicans freed the slaves?

  97. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    Hanson County is lousy with bridges ready to fail but no one has the balls to do anything about it.

  98. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Ohhh, and Sibby... The 'Hope & Change" worked, we do not actually have 23 (?) Million unemployed and are not really $ 16 Trillion in debt & growing.

    everybody sing with me:

    " So long sad times
    Go along bad times
    We are rid of you at last
    Howdy gay times
    Cloudy gray times
    You are now a thing of the past
    Happy days are here again
    The skies above are clear again
    So let's sing a song of cheer again
    Happy days are here again
    Altogether shout it now
    There's no one
    Who can doubt it now
    So let's tell the world about it now
    Happy days are here again
    Your cares and troubles are gone
    There'll be no more from now on
    From now on...
    Happy days are here again
    The skies above are clear again
    So, Let's sing a song of cheer again
    Happy times
    Happy nights
    Happy days
    Are here again!"

  99. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Stace, you are correct. The unemployment number is half that. Around 12.5 million. i.e. nowhere near 23 million. Not even close. You and Sibby are clearly mathmatically challenged. And that's a problem for him, I'm guessing because I've heard he was some kind of "accountant." Whoops!

    And as for your answer, even though I really don't like doing your homework for you, here's a little starter kit:

  100. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    I think maybe it's time to send the short bus down to Mitchell, have them pick up Stace and Sib, and give them a nice little putt-putt ride to a nice, soft quiet, padded room in Yankton. I hear the chow's pretty good down there boys. Whaddya think? I've got the phone number right here for ya.

  101. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    Yet Iraq and Afghanistan are enjoying surges in investment dollars.

  102. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "I’m guessing because I’ve heard he was some kind of “accountant.” Whoops!"

    That is how I understand Cory's graph is a distortion. I am trained to spot fraud. Usually they are the ones who can only make fun of others. Prompt themselves up by pushing others down.

  103. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    putting returning battalions to work preserving infrastructure just sounds too much like community organizing.

  104. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    The President is at Fort Bliss today picking up the Pottery Barn shards left by the previous regime.

  105. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Psst. Stace, what is the unemployment number in South Dakota? In your home town? i.e. what is the number/rate you guys use in the SD Legislature, and where does it come from?

  106. Jana 2012.08.31 many people from the public sector have Republican controlled states added to the ranks of the unemployed? How many private sector workers have been impacted by neglecting infrastructure projects have been lost. (By infrastructure, I'm talking about things like road know like Paul Ryan's family made their millions.)

    You can bitch about the unemployment figures, but you have to admit to the GOP adding to the problem and also admit and recognize that the employment #'s for the private sector are above pre-recession levels.

    As a follow up to Bill's question about your own district's you think that more government spending beyond the $5 million to an out of state employment agency would help other districts?

  107. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Those are hard questions for Stace, Jana. I'm concerned they may send him into a peripatetic brain fizz. Be gentle with him. He's not well. ;^)

  108. Dougal 2012.08.31

    Stace, by citing the 6 million people deemed undesireables by the prevailing German government between the years of 1933 to 1945, I wasn't labeling anyone "Nazis" other than the German government at that time. If I were to call you a Nazi, it would be an error and an insult, and that was never my intention.

    My point is if you wish to create a government that deems 12 million men, women and children (and unborn) as undesireables, you would be treading in the path pioneered by the German government between the years 1933 to 1945. My point is such an undertaking would be cruel, grotesque, extremely costly and ultimately violent.

    Or do you have a final solution that would cause these human beings to leave their homes in America peacefully and willingly?

    I am very interested in reviewing an intelligent plan.

  109. Jana 2012.08.31

    Dougal, I think the GOP leadership plan is self deportation.

    Stop laughing!

  110. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "You can bitch about the unemployment figures, but you have to admit to the GOP adding to the problem and also admit and recognize that the employment #’s for the private sector are above pre-recession levels."

    That is right Jana. Both parties are responsible for too much government involvement in what shold be a competitive free market. Now we have high inflation, high umemployment, all funded by federal debt.

  111. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "My point is such an undertaking would be cruel, grotesque, extremely costly and ultimately violent."

    That is right, did you go to the link I provided on the murder in Hanson County by two illegals? ANd much do you think the legal costs to defend our constitutional rights that are granted to those who are not citizens (yet American pre-born children get no due process as they are exterminated in Planned Parenthood abortion mills (if Dougal wants to talk Hitler some more ther you go)) are going to be.

  112. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    when in doubt sibby converts the rule of law to a mobius strip

  113. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    mobius strip search: more visual

  114. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    I'm thinking Nelson took your comment about Nazis about as seriously as he did when he told Moser that he was going to eat him alive on the House floor. Stace is just grandstanding and showboating here because he doesn't have any real arguments. Just a big goofy windbag. (Have a nice weekend, Stace.)

  115. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Great comparison Larry! Sibby is infinitely one dimensional. One side and one edge in an endless nonsensical loop. Cut him in half and all he does is get bigger and more twisted.

  116. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "Stace is just grandstanding and showboating here because he doesn’t have any real arguments. Just a big goofy windbag."

    Fleming, look into a mirror and say that and you will see the true expert at being a goofy windbag. Why do you support Mexican slavery?

  117. Steve Sibson 2012.08.31

    "One side and one edge in an endless nonsensical loop."

    Spoken like a true goofy windbag without an argument. Right on cue Fleming.

  118. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Sibby, I submit that I am the only person in South Dakota who has ever stood on the Mexico/US Border with a group of Latino American field workers and shouted through bull horns to folks trying to cross the border illegally to go back home. Wanna bet?

  119. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Sib and Stace, you guys really need to give it a rest. If you're not already embarrassed, I'm becoming embarrassed for you. Signing out. Best to you both. BF

  120. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    @Jana that stat linked by a private party indicates we are millions of people more unemployed from that mark you cite. I do not support taking millions of taxdollars and shipping them to Wisconsin to aid private business in finding their employees. that money should have been used to fix roads here in SD.

    @Dougal you caught me. Self-deportation is the exact idea. States that have enacted laws making it difficult for illegal aliens to continue violating the employment and residency laws, have seen mass self deportations. Enacting laws nationally that set a future deadline date that would require mandatory jail time, seizure of all assets, and permanent loss of any ability to immigrate legally if caught here illegally would expedite this

  121. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    except that mounting drug violence on the border exacerbated by Stace's buddies in the justice business are disincentivizing return to their homes for the off-season.

  122. larry kurtz 2012.08.31

    women and children in the crossfire again: how conservative.

  123. Bill Fleming 2012.08.31

    Tsk. Good lord.


    “Self-deportation” is snappy and sound-biteable; hence its superficial appeal. Slap together a water-tight employment verification law, issue IDs to legal workers, add some harassment from state and local authorities, and watch the unpapered immigrants stream south over the border whence they came. If they want to return to the United States, said Mr. Romney, they can get to the “back of the line.”

    The idea’s inanity is masked by its allure for some who hate illegal immigration but concede that mass roundups and deportations would be unseemly and prohibitively expensive. Better, they say, that illegal immigrants leave under their own steam — and pay their travel expenses, too.

    The problems start with economics. Undocumented workers comprise more than 5 percent of America’s labor force and much more in agriculture, hospitality, landscaping and elsewhere. Their departure would be a blow to the economy — and no, American-born workers, generally better educated and geographically remote from the jobs immigrants do, would not fill their shoes.

    Mr. Romney also wrongly imagines that illegal immigrants, who are mostly Mexicans, can be easily uprooted. In fact, nearly two-thirds have been here for more than a decade, and more than 28 percent arrived more than 15 years ago. Their roots here are deep: Almost half have children, and more than 80 percent of those 5.5 million children were born here and are U.S. citizens. Does Mr. Romney expect them to “self-deport” with their parents?

    As for the idea of getting to “the back of the line,” that assumes a line exists for low-skilled Mexicans lacking family connections in the United States. There is no such line that would realistically result in the issuance of a green card to an unskilled Mexican with no relatives in the United States. Even if a Mexican has, say, parents or siblings who are U.S. citizens, he would likely wait 15 to 20 years or more just to get an interview with a U.S. consular officer."

    Like I said, Stace, give it a rest, brother.

  124. Jana 2012.08.31

    Stace...we may disagree on a lot of things, but "I do not support taking millions of taxdollars and shipping them to Wisconsin to aid private business in finding their employees. that money should have been used to fix roads here in SD," isn't one of them.

    So where do I find the full throated objections to spending millions of South Dakota taxpayer $'s in Wisconsin to recruit and benefit out of state workers as opposed to South Dakota roads, students, schools, businesses?

  125. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    Just because some blowhard says those jobs cannot be filled legally, does not make it so. While you spent a couple moments on the border with your normal bullhorn, I spent 18 1/2 years overseas and saw those inline at our embassies and consulates that are trying to come here legally that would take those jobs two at a time.

    But what do I know, your liberal ideas are working out so well in CA and other enclaves where your ideas are implemented.

  126. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    @Jana The governor's crown jewel "WINS" program was not put through via a separate bill for the public to weigh in on and hearings to be properly conducted. My understanding is that it is actually $10 Million. Spending was simply snuck into SB48 Click on the little SDPB eagle lower right for the recording on the House debate on it on 2/23/2012, debate on the bill starts at time stamp 18:00, Rep Bernie Hunhoff makes appropriate comments and an amendment at 29:03, my comments in support of his amendment are at time stamp 35:38 and are the reason I am hated by tax and spend RINOs.

  127. Jana 2012.08.31

    Thanks I said, we may not agree on much, but this is one where I think the Governor's handlers might have blown it.

  128. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    @Jana Continue listening to the more eloquent Rep Lance Russell's support of the amendment as well as Rep Hunhoff's closing statement.

  129. Jana 2012.08.31

    Stace, I don't have a problem with the state helping and promoting business in South Dakota. It's placing that priority above the draconian cuts to education, our seniors and our children that really irritates me.

    Oh, and then there's that whole GOP mantra that is screeching "government shouldn't be picking winners and losers" hypocrisy that is only outdone by the fact that Trail King is one of the companies that would benefit from these taxpayer funds and they laid off 140 South Dakotans just 3 years ago!

    The GOP is so eager to bend over to corporate interests that they can't even see the obvious.

    What if we kept that $10,000,000 at home and invested it in developing our own workforce with real "Dakota Roots"? How many welders could we train up fast with $10,000,000? Not to mention that $10M would stay with our tech schools and create even more jobs right here in SD.

    At $20,000 per tech school graduate, we could train up 5,000 quality employees who wouldn't need an incentive to move to SD.

    Funny that the good old boys in Pierre weren't looking that far ahead so that we wouldn't be wasting this money now. Who's in charge again?

  130. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    @Jana Trail King laid folks off, then sold for a big profit (if my memory serves me right).

    Not to add insult to injury, SD is being sued for sending that money to Wisconsin employment agencies...

    P.S. Your preaching to the choir and there were Republicans who voted to strip the monies from the bill.

  131. Jana 2012.08.31

    Then we obviously have too many Republicans in Pierre who can't think straight.

  132. Stace Nelson 2012.08.31

    @Jana I go by President Lincoln's philosophy: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog? Five? No, calling a tail a leg don't make it a leg."

  133. caheidelberger Post author | 2012.08.31

    Sibby, neither I nor the graph seek to deceive. The graph accurately depicts the relative weight of various programs in the national debt.

    Percentage of GDP on the y-axis is arguably a better way to represent the publicly held debt than straight dollar figures. If GDP is up and we're making more money, we can bear more debt. It's just like measuring a family's debt load as a percentage of income, the way banks do when they decide how much of a loan to float.

    Going past the Bush years does not indict the graph or my original post. The tax cuts started under Bush, inflated the debt, and continue under President Obama. Arguably, had we not blown the surplus with those cuts in 2001 and 2003, we'd have had more wiggle room for stimulus in 2009 and could have fought the recession harder. The wars started under Bush; as Larry notes, President Obama continues to mop up that mess, and it ain't cheap. And the recession had impacts that continue to limit the ability of the current President and Congress to balance the budget.

    Projecting beyond today does not indict the graph; it helps us understand the continued impacts of those bad decisions from the Bush years, some of which the current Administration perpetuates but on which the GOP alternative would only double down, making the debt even worse.

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