KSFY reports the sad story of Tina Curl, who is so desperate to witness the execution of her daughter's killer that she's begging people for money to make the trip. Donald Moeller killed her nine-year-old daughter Becky O'Connell in 1990. South Dakota plans to kill Moeller between October 28 and November 3. Curl lives in Lake Luzerne, New York, a 2810-mile round-trip. Curl is living on disability payments; her husband has been out of work for a year. They thus can't afford the trip. Thus, they are asking for donations to cover the trip.
Curl admits witnessing the execution won't bring her closure. Curl obtained what little closure may be possible when she went through her own ritual to take Becky's spirit home and left Sioux Falls. The only relief Curl said she'll get from watching us kill Moeller is knowing "he's dead and he'll never get out to do this to anybody else's child."
Mrs. Curl, we can spare you the trouble and expense. We'll call you when Moeller's dead. We won't even call collect.
Besides, Curl's fundraising goal of $4,000 for the trip seems a bit high. Here's my quick spreadsheet for a 2810-mile roadtrip for two people:
- gasoline ($4 per gallon): $750
- nine nights in motel (one week in Sioux Falls, two nights on road, $80/night): $720
- food ($30/day): $270
- Total: $1740
I know stuff happens on the road, but $2200 is an awfully big cushion.
Spare Ms. Curl some grief. Don't give her your money to go on this useless trip. Mrs. Curl will do herself more good that week resting at home. Mr. Curl will do you both more good spending that week looking for work.
How dare you Cory even insinuate you know what's best for this mother. You transcend to a new low.
I dare. I dare. I would give this advice to any mother. Let it go. Don't let the murderer control your heart any more. Mrs. Curl will spend a lot of other people's money on a trip that even she seems to recognize cannot heal anyone.
I agree with cory. maybe it's the fact that I'm against the death penalty in most cases from the start. But anyone who is for the death penalty: Doesn't it seems strange that a woman is trying to fundraise money to go watch a man die? Thinking beyond the "thirst for justice", doesn't it give you a weird feeling?
Wanting to watch someone die --what does it have to do with justice?
This is classic "retribution versus rehabilitation" mentality where no one wins or recovers. He is giving up because he is tired of living in solitary confinement away from civilization. This is state supported suicide and the mother is helping his cause. He really is ending his life still in the spotlight causing more pain to society. The state has spent millions of dollars to press this case. The taxes of South Dakota and Lincoln county have had to be increased to pay for this futile exercise.
.
He should have been sentenced to solitary confinement for the rest of his natural life in prison. He would have had to think about his crime(s) everyday, every hour, every minute.
.
BTW, the state should never execute anyone. For the one chance in a thousand a person could be found innocent through proper investigation, why should the state help a group kill the wrong person. Why should the state assist retribution killing someone instead of finding the actual criminal. No one 'wins' when he dies this way.
The amount of money she is pleading for aside, NO ONE can even begin to imagine what this woman has had to live with and cope with having her daughter die in the manner she did. Don't even begin to judge her on her wish to witness this monster's execution-you can't say what you would want until you lived in her shoes. Even if you are against the death penalty now, you could change your mind if it was your daughter murdered.
Well said Paula! Mrs. Curl's wish to view the execution, and a decision by someone to donate to help her attend, is no one's business. Just more of Cory's condescending, elitism.... of course he knows best.
Paula, unique experience does not exclude public actions (she's asking for money publicly and speaking in the press) from public scrutiny and criticism. In previous death penalty discussions, I've made the point that if a close family member of mine were murdered (and here we go objectifying my family members with American-violence-porn, thanks for nothing), I would likely feel a murderous, vengeful rage of my own. I might well want to witness unspeakable things wrought upon the killer, if not do those unspeakable things myself.
Such feelings are exactly why we pass laws to restrain me from doing so. We create a deliberative justice system because personal vengeance is a poor basis for civilization.
Nicole, you presume to know what is best for this woman as well. You and I commit the same "condescensiom".... or is it simply moral reasoning?
First let me get this out of the way. I'm for the death penalty and especially in cases like this.
Now having said that lets ask ourselves a couple of questions.
1. Will it bring her daughter back? Of course not, unless you know something I don't know.
2. Will it give her closure? No that isn't going to happen either because she has said as much in interviews.
Twenty years is a long time and I feel for her but "dead is dead" for both her daughter and soon for the son of a bitch that did those terrible things to her. You cant fix dead, all you can do is live for the living.
Now if they would put Donald in a cell and tie him up, give her a baseball bat and let her swing away to her little hearts content, then maybe I could see giving her that opportunity. But then most people cant do such things themselves and that is the very reason that we have executioners in the first place.
Is her daughter any more dead then someone that has died in a car wreck? No she is not. Is she any more dead then a son or daughter that died on the battle field? Of course not.
You cant change the circumstances of death. It creeps up on you like a thief in the night stealing a life and leaving one less person when it goes.
Will this woman find some kind of easy feeling when she sees the life going out of this man? I hope so but if what other people say is true the only thing that she will be taking away from that room of death is the memories of that room and what happened inside, nothing more.
The Blindman
Careful, Bill D: you'll get accused of condescension. ;-)
You put it well, Bill. What's Mrs. Curl going to gain from a long, difficult roadtrip, unpleasant time away from home, and witnessing a death? It seems to promise only damage, not uplift, to any person's soul. Leave it behind, live for the living.
Cory - I do not presume to know what is best for her. She has said what she wants to do and I am simply supporting her decision to do so by criticizing you for implying you know better.
My heart goes out to Ms. Curl. I would argue denying this woman justice for so many years is cruel and unusual punishment for a crime she did NOT commit.
I pray that all of you are forever protected from this type of crime so that you too are not forever haunted by the horrors that such evil brings into the innocent lives of those affected.
Nicole, you're supporting her decision. You're saying the decision does not warrant criticism. You seem to be doing a relativist dodge. I'm just being honest: spending $4000 to come witness an execution will do less good for Mrs. Curl than sticking around home and helping her able-bodied husband looking for work. Simple cost-benefit analysis.
Stace, wasn't justice done when the killer was convicted? We've taken his liberty for 20+ years. We've kept him from hurting anyone else.
Mr. "H," you know my stance on this matter well and I do not have time to fully debate the issue anew.
A conviction is not justice, it was merely the determination of criminal culpability to the proffered charges.
We have warehoused a vicious evil murderer, hardly justice for the brutal crime committed. Especially in the eyes of those he victimized with that horror for these many years.
Alas, the Mrs. is hollering for me to get ready.
Prison is inhumane, corrections is a racket:
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/24/159922899/incognito-whats-hiding-in-the-unconscious-mind
What happened is bad. Appealing through the press is going to raise more than $4,000 for he I'm sure and I'm guessing she knows that. Will she give it back?
I hate to be judgmental but if she ends up profiting off the trip and planned for that, there are some disturbing implications that make cory's cmments seem pretty innocuous.
But Justin, I know Nicole, and I take heart to hear her turn off her arch-conservative radar and completely ignore the aspect of this story that has an unemployed man and a woman living on disability checks asking folks for handouts to go on a trip.
Sorry Cory, this fish won't bite on your predictable bait.
Republicans love welfare for somebody that will push their agenda. Look at how much they gave George Zimmerman.
Everyone,
There is a saying by long ago rabbi who said, "There is a word for one who loses a parent (orphan) or loses a spouse (widow) but there isn't a word for one who loses a child because it is so horrible there is no word to describe it."
First, the loss of a child is an "event" nobody ever gets over. It is with you every minute of every day. The very worst thing (but always well-meaning) to hear is talk about closure or told to move on or a hundred other derivations. These are just empty words because the daily experience is there is no closure or moving on. There is only learning to live with this reality.
Second, when you have a hole nothing can fill, you naturally grasp at anything and everything you think can in some ways, even temporarily, fill it or lessen the feeling of loss. As sincere as you are by saying "it won't do you any good (watching the excecution)," the grieving parent will not hear you or even listen to you. Instead, if they do hear you, they will hear only "you don't care because nothing you say makes sense to me. In fact it hurts."
Third, as much as anyone believes executing the murderer will be significant with regard to filling the hole is also mistaken. It is like putting a drop of water in a dried lake bed. Tomorrow, you still have a dried lake bed every where you look.
But, I do agree the long time for this execution to occur has been a punishment. Not because it will be more than a drop in the lake but because this grieving parent held out hope all these years it would actually help. As I said before, parents who lose a child grab ANYTHING they hope can help fill the hole that is unfillable.
If there was ever a justification for a conversation to just disappear and be replaced by this simple post- "Our hearts and prayers go out to Tina Curl as she continues her walk without her beloved daughter Becky," this is it.
As well intended as you all are, unless you have walked this walk, there is nothing you can say or do that will fill the hole except to support them on their walk. Reading between the lines, I suspect Nicole hasn't walked the walk but she has intimately and personally been the "Simon the Cyrean" who helped one walk the walk. In the end, all you can do is just help them get to Calvary. They are handed a cross on the day their child died and is only taken off their shoulders when they die. Not a minute before.
P.S. My comments apply to most parents who lose a child. I know parents who have lost a child through illness, murder, accident, self-inflicted, and in the line of duty. While each person's grief/mourning is distinct and personal, all have very common threads/stories but there is a distinct subset where their grief is different (which I don't understand)- those who lose their child in the line of duty where their child understood the ultimate sacrifice was a possible consequence (military, police, firefighting and even child birth). Its just different. How I don't know.
Another comment: There is a saying among those who have lost a child "The burden never gets lighter but our legs get stronger." That is the only reality that really makes sense. The rest is nonsense (meaning it doesn't make sense to us).
No, Troy, the post remains valuable... more valuable, I will argue, than the usual formulations of "thoughts and prayers" and "no one else can understand." Both Mrs. Curl's and your comments about the impossibility of closure make clear one line of reasoning that should be taken off the table in the discussion of the utility (not to mention morality) of the death penalty. Mrs. Curl, if she collects enough donations, will step out of South Dakota's death chamber with nothing more than one more awfuly memory. Her presence at the execution will not increase the justice meted out; her absence will not decrease it.
And dare I say, if you're helping her get to Calvary, it doesn't hurt to help her see the road signs. I don't think those signs point toward the South Dakota State Penitentiary.
You know nothing of which you speak. Mrs. Curl is on her walk and it is her walk she must walk. She must fall when she makes a wrong step and get back up. People beside her can only help her up with a hug or statement of love. Those words you call "usual formulations" are all you can say. Any else says "I understand" which you don't or "I can help" which you can't except to HELP lift them when they are down.
Troy, you seem to implying there is some sort of forbidden speech.
If there ever is, I hope it include statements made to profit off the death of your child.
Justin and Corey's inferences are lacking. Stating that the trip won't help is one thing, but to imply she is trying to profit off her child's death is insulting. You aren't aware of their travel requirements or accommodations, nor are you educated enough on the matter to make a logical accusation as you guys are trying to do.
This woman is profiting from her decisions regardless of Cory's post.
Note how a question about whether vengeance serves justice and the moral implications of asking for financial help to witness death throes quickly dissolves into an exchange of accusations, insult, and abuse. The real question is whether justice is possible in such a culture.
Anne - Questioning financial help is one thing, but questioning the exact amount and trying to prove it is too much is implying that she is trying to profit from this.
yeah, like willard's tax returns: nobody's bidness but his
Justin,
Personally, if she profits, it is just another drop in the lake and miniscule consolation for her loss. I myself am contemplating sending her some money. Not because being here will help but because not being here might stop her from realizing nothing will fill the hole. Every day of her life is another day missing Becky.
I've tried not to say this for I want no sympathy but I since I waded into the conversation, I probably should.
932 days ago, I began a walk similar to Mrs. Curl's walk which has now been 8,144 days. To give you the magnitude, she has missed Becky for over 703 million seconds and in some way consciously and unconsiously every one of those seconds have been impacted by Becky being gone.
Regarding forbidden speech, in America nothing is forbidden. But, the only words I've ever heard that was consoling was some variation of "I'm sorry" or "I love you." Everything else (as well-meaning as they are, an intent we are grateful for), is at best neutral and usually hurtful. On thing we do learn is it is seldom from intent but from ignorance.
Our club is very exclusive. We don't want anyone else to join. Talk all you want about the needs of society, what society wants, what is justice for society. But, anything you say about Mrs. Curl's walk, her motives, what she needs, or anything else is let's just say ignorant.
Just be grateful you aren't in our club. It is a horror in reality worse than anything you can contemplate.
She is trying to profit from this and she will profit from this.
I'm making the direct implication, I'm not dancing around my accusation.
I'm not against the death penalty and I can understand why she wants to go.
I find turning it into a public fundraiser for her own benefit offensive.
Everybody knows how much money the abused bus monitor and George Zimmerman cashed in on. Let's send her a big profit in direct relation to us killing a person as a state.
I do not know the whole situation but I did notice that her own neighbors will not go to the bar to help with her fundraiser.
if this dealio ain't a manifesto for single-payer health care i've never heard a better one.
I'm very sorry for your loss Troy, I really am.
If you were to believe you could profit off it and publicly ask for money as part of your grieving I would hold you to the same standard.
We all have our own walks, and our own burdens to bear. Nobody is exempt from from our laws or from public scrutiny because of their own particular flavor of pain and experience.
I found this online at Huffington Post -the first thing that popped up on Google when I searched for info:
"Curl, who has battled alcoholism and suffered a heart attack and quadruple bypass in May 2003, is on disability. Her husband, Dave Curl, who is not Becky's father, has been out of work for about a year. He also is hoping to attend the execution."
Who are any of you to judge this woman on how her life has turned out after her daughter was RAPED and MURDERED? Maybe I'd become an alcoholic and have a heart attack and have a disability from the grief I suffered. Who knows? Everyone here is awfully sure how they'd react and pointing the finger at how she should live her life, her husband should get to work, she's asking for too much money, etc. If she ends up with an excess of money, how do you know she plans to keep it? Maybe she will, maybe she won't. If you don't want to donate to her, then DON'T; but I think most people who do donate do it with the attitude of helping her in her situation, and they feel good doing it.
Paula: exhibit n
She put herself in position to be judged when she publicly asked for money.
If only this type of compassion were prevalent in everybody's daily thinking instead of making yourself feel better by throwing somebody a bone twice a year for your own benefit.
Rep. Noem: call for an amendment to ACA that creates a single-payer system and free access to mental health care for all Americans.
Roger,
That is such a accurate component of my dilemma. While I have no confidence being here will truly help, not being here could hurt. Her neighbors by intuition or experience might recognize this.
Or it could be a reaction to how Mrs. Curl has handled this. There is a concept called "unresolved grief" where the griever gets stuck in a stage (we hate the word stage because it implies there is a resolution when there is not) that leads to her becoming "sick." And the sickness manifests itself in so many ways her neighbors don't understand or have begun to resent.
One of those manifestations is a constant aura of victimhood leading to a misguided sense of entitlement or special treatment. If that is the case, sending her money could just feed the sickness.
Which is my dilemma- does my understanding she needs to get past the blame and get to just missing Becky and thus helping her get here help? Or am I just feeding her greatest obstacle to just missing Becky.
Unless someone has a sincere question where my experience can help (all of us in this club benefit if those outside have greater understanding), I am finished with this thread. I've said what I can. You can do with it as you wish.
Justin,
As well-meaning you may be and helpful you think for us to be "corrected" when we aren't doing the best thing, we just don't see it and your effort ends up being harmful. Your effort gets lost in the black hole we desire to be filled. Unless you are a most trusted friend, pastor or counselor, all we are able to accept from others is "I'm sorry" or "I love you." Anything else is heard (regardless of intent) as a presumption of knowledge, of which you know nothing and we know you know nothing. So, why wouldn't we tune you out, especially if it is what we don't want to hear? And unlike other things that pop up and make sense later, we've put it in the trash pile.
And finally, you have no standing to judge her for anything. Period.
Paula,
Thank you for your words. I just want to take one exception. Send her money if you think it will be good for her (whatever your rationale). But don't do it because it will make you feel good. Much of the pain inflicted on us by others is what they do and say to make themself feel good.
Like my counselor says, "if you sense their out-reach is for them, turn your back on it. Your pain is greater and you have no obligation to salve their wound at your expense."
Larry,
Just shut up.
http://interested-party.blogspot.com/2010/03/holy-spirit-mental-illness-linked.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xuSwp4exbtE/UCWkYlyyC6I/AAAAAAAABN4/1SYtb9f9ipg/s1600/DSC_0002.JPG
You apparently have gained the ability to judge everybody and not be judged.
Congratulations, it must feel special.
Quit trying to turn this situation into your own.
Here is Troy's compassion as it refers to universal health care:
"
Cory,
I know you want to sell this really bad, especially since the polls since the SCOTUS ruling are trending bad for your guy. But, honesty demands you not use partial and out-dated information.
1) The numbers you a present assume the entire bill was upheld. It was not which has a great deal of impact both on the number to “benefit†as well as the net cost (higher cost and lower revenues). For instance, you assume the “Medicare/Medicaid Savings†which are virtually impossible with ruling.
2) You conveniently neglect the effect of increased premiums for private policies that will occur.
3) You conveniently neglect the costs of higher corporate taxes or personal taxes that flow through to individuals organized as a Sub-S corporation or LLC (which are really paid by the buyer of good or service as it is passed through).
4) You conveniently neglect the hidden cost of decreased economic activity and jobs available for the “beneficiaries.â€
Again, in the end, you measure something as good by the level the government provides health care, food and shelter, and the like. I measure it by the level people can have jobs and procure these things on their own."
I think what Troy is trying to say is that very few, if any of us can appreciate this woman's position. If you are familiar with the unspeakable details of this case* you will perhaps at least appreciate the level of profundity involved.
Unimaginable. And, in my opinion, not really discussable.
She must handle her circumstance as best she knows how.
( * Just FYI, a good friend of mine was the prosecutor on this case way back when, and my business partner and I helped him with the courtroom exhibits and jury selection. From that day to this, I try not to think about it. But were I that child's parent, how on earth could I not? I have absolutely nothing but compassion for the woman... certainly not one ounce of criticism, or advice worth listening to or thinking about. I am, as per Troy, gratefully unqualified.)
Reading that I sure would have thought your response to this woman financially stifled by her illnesses would be that it wasn't your problem and since it might increase your taxes, maybe she should get ajob.
I understand it was terrible.
I believe the execution is just.
My skin just crawls due to the selective compassion people display.
think about it: whatever else is out there isn't working, right? because it's still happening:
http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/man-convicted-of-raping--year-old-child/article_788ea75e-2db7-5060-85b0-d31e6e0a60fc.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
what's the cost indeed?
Justin;
I have never read a comment more out of line than your, " Quit trying to turn this situation into your own" concerning Troy's firsthand experience with personal tragedy. I watched my grandparents bury their only two children three years apart. I was twenty and then twenty three. My grandfather cried like a baby and said he would give all the money in the world, everything he owned, and all the land he owned to have his children back. A punk kid never forgets that; you will replay your statements someday and beg forgiveness. My kids are all alive so I know not of what they felt, Troy certainly does.
Shame on you Justin.
Thank you Charlie for putting into words what I could not. I can't even wrap my head around a couple of peoples' comments here; nor do I want to, I think. I'm gonna stay out of this conversation from this point on because it gets seriously off-topic and I can't figure out where people are coming from. Maybe I'm the only one!
Well then you aren't going to like this comment, Charlie:
Quit trying to make this situation your own.
Trying to change the subject of this discussion by saying the discussion is invalid due to your own personal pain isn't an excuse for an argument.
I'm not a terrible person because of anything that happened to any of you. I've never heard so much "how dare you judge, you awful, awful person". It is the height of hypocrisy and a weak excuse for denying one's own discompassionate actions.
I blame Mr. E for even bringing it up. PP does too.
Mr. H.
Not Mr. E. Mr. E has some really good posts lately and I was reading them so I had Mr. E on the brain.
Maybe Pat will finally get some comments on his musings now that he isn't posting here anymore and posting on his own site with the same line of sanctimonious and uninformed attacks on Cory as Julie Gross (NE).
Mr. PP posted here? I can't believe that, he'd have been banned months or years ago. Like Mr. E banned me.
Grudznick, did you comb your beard today? I swear, that thing has a life of its own.
No, but I did run my fingers through my neck and back hair, which was kind of tangled.
No side-show tent with the preacher and news of the messiah for this child murderer but rather a locked room a devised theatre of his own making The pathetic inmate with no last rights or institution that would tolerate this grotesque individual The individual who is going to have the stupid smirk knocked right off his face on his way to the lethal injection.
Mrs. Curl should use any money she gets from the gullible for psychiatric care.
I think lawyers say something like "Tough cases make bad law." This is a not a law case, but I don't think much good can come out of it even if it is interesting to read arch-conservatives who regularly rant and rave about unproductive members of society no excusing what appears to be a life of unproductivity followed by shameless hustling for support of unproductive behavior likely to solve no problems nor provide any emotional relief.
Death penalties are something left over from feudal and tribal revenger that has no place in government. As already indicated, the death penalty cannot be undone when the process for making the decision is so likely to be flawed that irreversible decisions are not warranted.
I don't support the death penalty for most crimes. I do for Moeller's. He deserved to leave this earth long ago. My daughter was six or seven when this murder occurred, and it affected every parent of a young girl. I won't judge the Mom. She's been through the worst hell I could imagine.
Be careful, Troy: statements like "not being here might stop her from realizing nothing will fill the hole" could cause you to hyperextend your mental knees. You seem to be saying that she may need to come here to realize that coming here will not help her.
My compassion includes offering advice to help others reach an outcome with more positives than negatives. It includes practical budget advice. And sometimes, it includes trying to pierce the isolation grief uses to perpetuate itself. When the grieving person cries, "You don't know, you can't know, leave me alone!" I may accede to that wish... but not without leaving humanity's card, not without saying, "You are not unique. You are not alone. Someone else has experienced your loss. Everyone experiences some loss. Grieve, grieve hard... but someday, you must push back your thoughts of loss to make room for thoughts of life."
I know, probably just another hollow formulation that the grieving parent/partner/child will not hear through her tears. But if I prayed, that's what I'd pray for: that the grieving person always remember but reach beyond her pain, take the hand of humanity, and come along for the rest of the living ride. I don't get to say it to God, so I say it to the person who needs to hear it.
Great post Cory. Thank you for your bravery on this topic. I agree 100%. I'm with Testor on this one. The death penalty is assisted suicide. I think if you kill someone you should spend the rest of your natural life thinking about it in a cell. Not to mention, life imprisonment is cheaper then executing someone for taxpayers, it has been proven time and time again.
Justin,
I am saying nobody is awful. I am saying unless you have heard someone say "I would give everything I have including life for one more second with my child" and know it is the most honest thing you have ever heard, woke up at 3 in the morning and listen to your wife sobbing in bed two years after your daughter cried, gone to work without turning on a light and gone home at midnight without doing a single thing, or experienced thousands of other emotions and thoughts, you have absolutely no standing to question or judge anything Mrs Curl says or does. Nor do you have anything valuable to say.
No you want to change the subject by attracting attention to your own suffering.
I know pain. Other people know pain. I question the integrity of using it to try to win an argument on a blog.
I hope you can get over your loss. But I am never going to see it as a reason to not disagree with you on this or any topic.
sure, we're killers: but we won't kill...today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKmUd0zHW4w
Tina Curl is bitter, hateful & bloodthirsty. But I do believe she should be at the execution.
Justin is bitter and hateful.
Troy's words here really effected me. Set aside these attacks on you, Troy, as they are the product of youthful exuberance and inexperience.
We don't need to attack anyone here. We should seek to help each other live as well as possible in community. We should encourage Mrs. Curl not waste her resources or ours on a futile trip to watch us kill a man.
We also don't need to kill an old man who will never escape prison to harm another child.
Cory, it's not our place to encourage Tina Curl not to come. Whether or not you and I favor the death penalty (I don't, and I know you don't), the sentence has been handed down and will be carried out.
Tina Curl has been waiting many years for this day to look at a man who has never admitted what he did and has used up probably a couple million dollars of taxpayer money denying he did it. Moeller has had his due process at everyone's expense, but you really can't fault Tina Curl for being disgusted with his years of denials. Had Moeller simply admitted what he did and asked for forgiveness, maybe Tina Curl would be in a better place right now. I hope she finds some peace.
i think mr. moeller should join the dick, cheney on the first human spaceflight to uranus.
I hope so too, R. But she won't find it in the death chamber.
R, I am not a bitter and hateful person. Nor am I attacking anybody, unlike you.
If this is the point in the game where I am supposed to spill my own personal tragedies as justification for my statements, I refuse. Out of respect for the people I have lost, I strive for resilience. Anger, denial and negotiating are prescriptions for misery, not healing or resolution.
The fact that this execution will make Ms. Curl relive this tragedy that she should be able to cope with by now, 20 years down the road, is a strong argument against the execution, although it doesn't change my belief that it is justified in this case.
Wrong Justin. You attacked Troy's integrity for posting one of the most thoughtful and heartfelt comments I've seen on this blog.
Attacking and questioning are different verbs.
Perhaps if you understood you wouldn't be so eager to attack.
Justin, it is hard not to want to attack you. I will not spill my guts but will say, the most appreciated comment a friend who lost a child received was "you will never get over this loss" from another parent who had lost a child.
Justin, be careful of your easy words, they are seeds sown that will be harvested.
If you think I don't know people who have lost their children or lost friends who left parents behind, you are off your rocker.
I am not sowing any seeds. Your biblically worded threats are embarrassing, not intimidating.
Justin: you have my complete support. Fire away and I'll mop up behind you.
It's shocking to me how cold and cruel some of you are. I sure hope I do not know you in person because you are not the kind of people who try to make this world a better place :(
Let ME just say from my experience... your life can change in different ways in the blink of an eye. Life can be going along and you find out your husband has a brain tumor. And although benign, he had MANY complications and a 2nd brain surgery and still more complications. He is now disabled and unable to work. This community has helped my family out in countless ways, but if I thought for one second that we were being judged on how I handle our finances, or that I can't go to work full-time right now, I couldn't live with myself. Justin and Larry and a couple of others here, be careful throwing stones-you don't know what life has in store for you. You really should think twice about posting what you do or how it will come across to others, because you are making yourselves look like a couple of @sses.
I question the bitterness and hatefulness of comments such as those you made on this thread Justin. Feel better now?
Signing off for this thread. R
I agree with Paula's posts, and Troy's. People seem to be blaming the victim here, and it's coming from liberals!!! I have to say it's not a proud day for the good guys.
Watching the video of this woman again just reinforces Cory's post: this woman needs far more help than she will ever enjoy watching the state put a man down.
Good grief, people: US service members rape every day with the blessings of their commanders.
Yes Paula, I feel similarly. This post and related comments are the saddest I've ever read here. Most who comment are particularly opinionated and aren't representative of the majority of people who I hope feel the same level of compassion. Sometimes you have to remind yourself not to react to comments even when they are so disappointing.
I almost stayed out of this thread: it was Stace's comment that forced me to Cory's side. Opinions are like recta: everybody has one.
You can criticize me all you want, it isn't going to change what I see.
I see Ms Curl using her own situation to her advantage.
And I see great irony that people are lining up to use their own situations as a justification for attacking me for seeing what I see. There could be no greater evidence you don't understand what I am saying. "Do not want to comprehend" was a very apt description.
the answer falls from the sky:
https://madvilletimes.com/2012/08/sd-supreme-court-no-moral-legal-right-to-stand-aloof-from-your-community/#comment-79521
Mr. Justin, I would hold your soft young (but manly) hand in my gnarled paw and console you for your losses. You are indeed a damaged young man.
I don't need your condolences right now Grudz.
But I'll let you know when I set up my donation website. Do you have PayPal?
I guess I need some state sponsored spectacle celebrating our "values" to fuel page views.
Let me know if you know of any coming up.
I also appreciate all the hatred.
It helps me tell myself with clear conscious that I am one of the few people who hasn't exploited this tragedy to my benefit.
I think you are exploiting it the best, Mr. Justin. Here...take my hand...
I can understand your interpretation, Grudz. You probably think I don't think this lady deserves your money. She does.
In order to arrive at that conclusion you would have to be completely devoid of the ability to understand the irony of a woman completely screwed over by life and the state being reduced for begging for money online to be returned to the state that screwed her the most to be a figurehead to be exploited by the Pro Life crowd at an execution.
As William Shakespeare said: "This shit writes itself".
What lady?
I'm just offering my assistance for your pain.
Like I said, when I need it I'll either spill it out for everybody or start a website.
You will be the first I will contact.
So what are your thoughts on government health benefits for the mentally disabled? Totally against, not worth your tax dollars? Of course.
It will eat at you Mr. Justin from the inside and rot at your gut. It will make you more insane than others. Take my hand...
No, no. That is "unseemly".
I hope they find the right bunting for the execution.
Now is not the time in the political cycle to be stuck without bunting!
Don, I remember Beth and think quite fondly of her. I hope and pray all is well with you. I think of her whenever I see a post from you.
Now my depth meter is spinning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS90xx3RMd4&feature=related
"Blaming the victim"—not me. I'm not saying that Mrs. Curl caused her daughter's murder. In the situation under discussion here, raising money to attend an execution that she can't afford to attend on her own dime, she is perhaps a victim of our sanctification of unnecessary state-sponsored killing.
There are all sorts of people on unemployment and disability to whom Nicole and other conservatives wouldn't give another dime, indeed whom Republicans have voted to deny all manner of social assistance. But when someone in that situation asks for money to attend an execution, the purses spring open. Donors to Mrs. Curl for this trip aren't helping her husband find work. They aren't helping her find peace. They are justifying their own political agenda. That, Justin, is the selfish appropriation of Mrs. Curl's situation that should rile us most.
It is for me, that's for sure.
Cory,
And you think you are so pure as to be able have comments about Mrs. Curl and those who disagree with you to not be "justifying your own political agenda?"
I don't know if I should laugh, puke, or what. I just know I have seen meanness taken to a quite personal and direct level (not in the abstract) but judgmentally and directly at a single person (Mrs. Curl).
Then let's all admit we're on the same level. Every speaker here is making a judgment. Every speaker here has an agenda. I'm at least encouraging Mrs. Curl not to engage in a charade but to work on solving practical problems.
Cory,
Do not put me on your level. Mrs. Curl is in a place you don't understand, you fail to acknowledge your abject ignorance makes you unqualified to offer advice or make judgment.
My only agenda is to try to inform people not to apply what they think, based on their experience, is "practical" to a situation their experience is non applicable.
All you do is confirm the first thing we hear in counseling.
Grief is defined by the relationship. Loss of a parent is different than loss of a child.
For instance, when someone (as well-meaning as they may be) says "I know how you feel. I lost my Dad. . . " and proceed to give advice we are told to do one of these things:
1). Smile, go to a happy place and ignore what they say, and when they finish, thank them.
2). Say "I lost my dad too. Sorry for your loss but this is different and I am glad you don't understand what this is like"
3). Firmly tell them you are not looking for advice or counsel but an ear to listen. If they don't want to listen but talk, walk away and never look back. We have no obligation to put up with nonsense that pierces our heart to make others feel better as they lance us.
Those of you untrained in mental illness presume to think your view on multiple personalities is more relevant than a trained professional? Why do you think your view on what will help Mrs. Curl deal with her "unresolved grief" (which is a clinical term) is relevant?
I oppose the death penalty vehemently. That said I can see how being here for the execution MAY be a necessary step for her healing. Don't know for sure as I don't know enough (but a lot more than anyone here).
But, if I have an agenda, it is to stress we want no advice from anyone but our counselor, pastor, some select friends who have listened to us over time or one who has experienced loss of a child. We are told to ignore you and we will. Anything you say besides simple words of "I am sorry" are only harmful.
Troy, I reject your first paragraph. I reject exceptionalism. I am as qualified to comment on this public issue, made public by Mrs. Curl herself, as you or anyone else.
To be honest, I think your counselors are wrong. Telling the truth may be harmful, but it's still the truth. Advising people not to listen to the truth is irresponsible.
But let me check something here: suppose a person who has lost a child to murder answers Mrs. Curl's public fundraising plea (remember, she opened the conversation) with the same criticism I'm giving. Is that allowed? Or do the counselors tell Mrs. Curl to tune out that advice, too?
The essence of your comment is you think it will do her no good. You think something else would be better. You assert you know the truth.
I assert you know nothing of which you speak. Grief affects one physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually leading to a common list of 25 different manifestations that are dealt with through mourning (one's response to grief). Healthy mourning leads to a "resolution" of the grief that allows one to walk their walk with strength, resolve, and purpose. When one gets stuck in a particular manifestation, they have unresolved grief that prevents a healthy walk. Mrs. Curl's statements indicate she has unresolved grief.
As you helpful as you may think "speaking the truth" is, the "truth" will not be effective and will be harmful if the "unresolved grief" isn't dealt with. It might be truthful to say to an obese person, they are fat. But does it serve the purpose of getting them to be at a more healthy weight? Not if the comment further destroys their self-esteem and they eat to compensate for low self esteem.
Mrs. Curl's deepest desire is to get healthy with regard to her grief. She believes this will help. Whether it will or not is irrelevant until she is disuaded that this will help. And, after 20 years, she has learned people who have never experienced this have ALWAYS given bad advice (no matter how well-intended). All people in this club want to hear from outsiders is "I'm sorry" and no comparison's to their own experience or anything else.
Regarding your last question, it is absolutely allowed and she may listen to them. I specifically said we are counseled to accept help from other club members. But, you know what, club members don't offer advice until it is asked for. We listen to their story first, second and third. And, after listening, we may get asked and only then do we give advice.
Cory, weaved through your comments are you don't like the death penalty and believe it has no redeemable attributes. In other words, your agenda is yours and not helping Mrs. Curl. Mrs. Curl is incapable of seeing past her pain until the pain is relieved. And, she sure isn't going to care what one who has an agenda besides her has to say.
So, go ahead and keep calling her "fatty" as she knows she isn't well (as "truthful" as it might be), just don't delude yourself it isn't mean-spirited and grounded in a concern other than her well-being.
Perhaps I can thread the needle here.
In terms of Mrs. Curl's "unresolved grief" Troy, I think it's reasonable to suggest that we as a society may be contributing to, and reinforcing it with a legal system that has established that in this case her ordeal will only be over when her daughter's murderer is dead.
This is not just Mrs. Curl's perception, it is a matter of fact and law, and it is true, not just for Mrs. Curl, but for all of us as well.
In other words, I think it at least possible that Mr's Curl could have reached closure on this long ago had she not been instructed by society otherwise. In her mind, as well as in the minds of many commentors here, justice will not have been done until we collectively kill Mrs. Curl's child's murderer.
And as the saying goes, "justice delayed is justice denied."
So in a sense, we all share in Mrs. Curl's feelings of incomplete closure. None of us can "put this behind us" until it's over. It is one of the unintended social consequences of a death penalty sentence.
And the current discussion between you and Cory is evidence of the effect, with each of you trying to resolve your own sense of injustice in your own way out of compassion for the victim, not realizing that society as a whole (including the two of you) are victims as well.
Conversely, if Becky's murder, long ago had been given a sentence of life without possibility of parole, or perhaps even two or three consecutive life sentences to run consecutively, that, for most of us (maybe even Mrs. Curl) would have been the end of it.
Blessed are the peacemakers...
Bill,
I do agree. I said that earlier, much earlier. The problem is she held onto his execution as a solution. Only when it occurs can she see it is not the answer. And, I say this as one opposed to the death penalty.
My suggestion of course, Troy, is that she's not the only one who has irrationally "held onto his execution as a solution." Many, if not most of us have. Peace, brother.
Troy, sometimes we need to hear things we don't want to hear.
Ask for my money, you ask for my advice.
And the big point: Mrs. Curl is asking us to help her watch the state kill a man. Encouraging or materially helping anyone to witness a killing does moral and psychological harm to the witness, the giver, and society.
"Mrs. Curl will do herself more good that week resting at home. Mr. Curl will do you both more good spending that week looking for work."
"completely ignore the aspect of this story that has an unemployed man and a woman living on disability checks asking folks for handouts to go on a trip."
"Donors to Mrs. Curl for this trip aren’t helping her husband find work."
Those three quotes are from your posts, Cory. I think they are very judgmental and hateful comments and you can try to backtrack in other posts and sugarcoat other things you say all you want. You say things that judge these people in a situation you will never understand, so leave them alone. So what if they beg for money and want to see him die? They are desperate and don't know what else to do, and desperate times call for desperate measures. If you don't want to contribute, don't! Quit assuming you have the answers to everything. You are a smart guy intellectually, but I wonder if you have a caring bone in your body.
No Herd Of Swine taking orders But Only One Asking For Nothing To Delay His Execution This Request A Debacle Of The First Order Along With A Stupid Smirk Will Be Answered Not By The Herd But Only One The No1 Pig Who Will Have A Smirk Already Countersigned.
You are right, Paula: I am making a judgment, just as everyone else here does. But judgmental is not the same as hateful. I judge my daughter's behavior out of care, not hate. And I still reject the exceptionalism behind which the folks who disagree with me on this issue hide. "never understand"? Nuts to that. Human understanding is stronger than that. You claim to understand them when you say they are "desperate."
It matters very much if someone begs for money to watch someone die. As I said in my immediately preceding comment, wanting to see someone die is a sign that something is broken in one's heart and mind. It's just like suicide: if someone in despair says "I want to kill myself," I'm going to say, "That's a bad idea." If that person says, "But I'm suffering from unique circumstances that you will never understand, so stop judging me and being hateful," I'm going to say, "Baloney. Ending your life is a bad choice." That's the judgment any caring person would give.
I don't understand why it has to turn into the debate about the death penalty instead of just about Tina Curl's situation of wanting to witness her daughter's murderer take his last breath? He's already been found guilty, already been through the appeals process, and after 20+ years, his time is up. And it's not up to us (you, me or anyone else) to decide for HER if it is going to bring her closure or not. And I don't think it is for anyone to judge her for how she lived her life after her daughter's brutal rape and murder. I'm sure those circumstances played a HUGE part in her health problems and ultimate disabilities. Maybe the child's murder played a part in the stepfather's health and/or ability to hold a job. You don't know and I don't know that. I DO know that they have been dealt a cruel hand by life that ruined them and if they would like to attend the execution, by all means they should be able to. I actually read some other interviews with Tina Curl who said she is desperate and doesn't have any other way to get here except to appeal to the public. I guess in my opinion, I don't think people are giving her money because they support the death penalty, or because they think she's doing a good job cheating the system; but because they are caring people who want to help her close a horrible chapter in her book of life (not close the book, but a chapter anyway)
I just cannot stand the way you keep bashing her husband for not working when you do not know their situation. I'm done and that's all I'm going to say.
"witness her daughter's murderer take his last breath"—we can't talk about that opportunity without talking about our society's acceptance of the death penalty. There's just no separating this conversation into a neat little judgment-free box that's just about our feelings.
Remember, as I cited at the top, Mrs. Curl said it won't bring her closure and it won't help her heal. The people who give her money to help her "close a chapter" aren't listening to her.
Not working: it's simple fact. Witnessing this murder won't make their lives materially better. The long hard trip could aggravate any medical conditions. Both husband and wife would be better if if they saved their money, stayed home, and the husband continued to look for work where they live. Heck, they'd even be better off if they asked for money to help them pay their regular living expenses, not for a useless and unpleasant roadtrip.
Curl raises enough money to watch Jackley kill Moeller:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501363_162-57505663/mom-of-slain-girl-9-to-attend-killers-execution/
Curl said publicity about her predicament brought in more than the needed $4,000, with donations from as far away as Chicago and Alaska. She said it also spawned a slew of negative comments online telling Curl to let it go and that she needs help.
“Everybody wants to put me down because I want to be there to see the execution,†Curl said. “Unless you’ve walked in my shoes, don’t judge me. Don’t tell me what you would do if it happened to you. You don’t know until it happens to you.â€
A neighbor helped Curl set up an online PayPal account and open a fund at a local credit union. Curl estimated it would take about $4,000 to cover gas, hotels, meals and other travel costs. Any donations over the amount spent on the trip will help cover unpaid bills from O’Connell’s funeral, she said.
http://www.argusleader.com/viewart/20120904/NEWS/309040034
I see she buys into Troy's self-isolationism as well. "Don't judge me... you don't know"—those words shut down rational conversation and evaluation and open the door to doing whatever you want, without having to confront any criticism, constructive or otherwise.
The comments on Huffington Post are overwhelmingly sympathetic and supportive of her decision and request for money. I assumed that liberal audience would side more with Cory's perceptive.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/tina-curl-execution_n_1855036.html?
Liberals are as capable of imperfect or misplaced compassion as anyone else... or it's possible that I'm not as compassionate as most liberals.
What if she does find peace watching this execution?
That's scary.
Interesting post, Cory.
I don't think she will, Taunia. If she does... well, there should be something alarming in finding peace in the killing of a human being.
But your question makes me seek comparisons... did we find peace in killing Osama bin Laden?
Hey, didn't know this was still going!
So, she got more money than she needed..... AND she is keeping it!!!
I for one am shocked, shocked.
Although I'm at least a little bit happy to say "I told you so".
I did not personally "find peace" in killing bin Laden. I'm still mortified we did.
I do not enjoy a community that advocates killing others to "find peace". That's not peace. That's a conclusion come to by anger, frustration and not knowing what else to do.
Justin: your brutal honesty throughout this thread was shocking, but certainly worth contemplating.
Is it peace or closure? It may have no more affect than watching a movie as we have been numbed down in all ways imagined.
We are a strange creature, finding a little bit of happiness in all sorts of odd ways.
Again, it's not closure, Les. Mrs. Curl said she won't get that here.
Peace, closure, justice, whatever you want to call it.
It looks more like a political spectacle than anything else. Is DD going to be there watching?
I hope they have the bunting lined up by now.
Mrs. Curl doesn't want isolation. She wants to be well.
And, while we are talking truth, she is right. You don't know. Thus, the only rational conversation is for her to take the time to educate you. Until she does, everything from your mouth is irrational. And, frankly, some people desire to remain ignorant and we will accept your desire. But, at the same time, we will not accept your ignorant ruminations.
I have only one wish for Mrs. Curl- that today, tomorrow, and everyday she gets a bit stronger to carry her missing of Becky. I pray her decision to come for the execution bears fruit.
And, I thank those who gave her money because they hope it will help Mrs. Curl. I also thank those who, out of only concern for Mrs. Curl, chose to pray for her or did something else.
As well intended and truthful you might believe your "advice" might have been, if seen by Mrs. Curl, it was received as if you had walked up to an obese person in McDonalds and said loud enough for everyone to hear "Don't you know this Big Mac will only make you fatter. You are not only fat but stupid too.". And while you will return to your seat with smug satisfaction you did this person a favor, everyone else is looking at you with disgust for we know you didn't care about this person. You wanted to gloat you are a better person because you are fit.
Perhaps we have something to learn from Mrs. Curl. This story isn't over yet. I'm okay to let her have the last word.
If this thread did nothing more than make Justin a little bit happier, it was worth it.
As a person who doesn't support capital punishment or pro choice, I feel this post has value helping to bring some of the undercurrent to the surface Cory.
Though most of us are probably wrong to some degree, we get to see the angles of thought that contribute to the state we are in. Consensus? Most likely not in the short term.
I disagree with you on both those hot button issues, Les, but I can at least respect the consistency of your opinions.
I think this thread has been valuable to learn a new debating technique from Troy. Telling people they can't argue against you because you choose to cast yourself as the victim in an unrelated story still isn't something I would do, but I bet it works on children or in the SD legislature.
I didn't think Troy's story was unrelated. Have you suddenly lost a child for an apparantly sensless reason and had your soul shaken by it as both Mrs. Curl and Troy have, Justin?
That makes this the same situation in your eyes? I don't know the circumstances of Troy's loss, but this is a fairly unique case. If he starts begging for money by invoking his loss it MIGHT start to approach similarity.
The strategy seemed so convenient and elegant that Paula and Charlie both saw their own tragedies as a way to convince themselves that they, too, are actually the victims here.
I'm sure people who were molested will also say that nobody else can understand. If these victims tell me my voice is irrelevant when a molester is accused of an improper activity, I won't buy it then either.
If your child was senselessly raped and killed, or suddenly unexpectedly and fatally stricken by a natural cause, I'd argue that you as a parent are also a victim, yes, Justin. Your lack of empathy here is particularly striking — and I must also say surprising — considering your take on things. What's up with that? Did your ego get involved somewhere along the line?
Should have been "considering your USUAL take on things..." sorry.
Justin, you don't know me. You have no idea what kind of person I am or what I do in my life, so don't pretend you do. I am a very giving and compassionate person. And even though I think you're an uncaring jerk, I would probably still help you in whatever why you needed it someday.
that should be whatever way you needed it someday....
Paula, you don't know me or what I've been through. And you certainly won't learn about it here.
I have no lack of compassion and I'm sure you've had some struggles that are uniquely your own.
Telling me I can't understand your grief isn't going to be a sufficient replacement for an argument on any thread here though.
If you want to talk lack of compassion, don't look at me though. Look at those who think a few percentage points lower in their tax rates excuses ignoring the mental and physical health of those less fortunate than you. Throwing this poor lady $10k or whatever it is isn't going to forgive that even though it might help you forget it.
One of the common phenomena people like Mrs. Curl experience is people trying to help her "return to normal." Sometimes it is sincere concern for Mrs. Curl because they know she was happier before Becky died. Sometimes it because they "liked" her better when before Becky died.
But, what such people fail to realize is we can never go back to that person. The "old Mrs. Curl" is gone forever. We have experienced a cataclysmic "event" that changes everything forever. After that "event," we have three choices as we live our life (none of which is better than the other but right for different people):
1) We put our child in a "memory box" we open on occassion. To the outside world we appear to be living as if our child never existed and most privately we open the box when we choose.
2) We live our life thinking of our child as often as we do our other child. Sometimes we contemplate their reality and think about how they would be reacting in the world or sharing directly in our earthly life. When asked about our family, we always talk about all of our children and sometimes share how our family is relative to our lost loved one.
3) We live a hybrid where some we present #1 and to others we present #2.
#1 is certainly easier on those around us as we don't make people contemplate the horror if it had occurred to them and they delude themselves to believe we are "fine" or "back to normal." But, it creates a new burden on the parent by giving a feeling of dishonoring their child's life and its significance. My wife has chosen to bear this burden with amazing grace and courage. I'm always so impressed with her both in the moment and then how she goes home and essentially cries to Sydney in "apology" for acting as if she wasn't still her daughter.
#2 for the parent is easier emotionally, at least for me. However, it has the effect of narrowing one's social circle. Some people can't accept "we refuse to move on" and we make them feel uncomfortable. For instance, if people ask about my family, I tell the whole story. Or, if they talk about their children, I return the favor and talk about all my children. This too creates a new burden in having to make new friends and let old one's "move on." I myself have had to just distance myself from people who want me to be the "old Troy." I'm not that person and I refuse to pretend for their sake to present myself as that person.
Reality is we choose a hybrid leaning one way or another, They each put burdens on us as we live in society (outside our immediate family).
If you think we are claiming some form of victimhood, frankly we don't really care. We are who we are- a parent who has lost a child. But, if you try to enter our world with your "advice" (especially if it is obvious you have no regard for where we are at) don't be surprised if we tell you that you are full of crap. While we are glad you don't understand and don't have our experience, we resent your presumption.
Compassion is not asking someone to share in your suffering, no matter how significant as it might be. Compassion is entering into another's suffering, where they are, and accepting some of it upon yourself.
Justin, regardless of your own suffering or grief and the reality it may be worse than Mrs. Curl's, it is not relevant. It is your own and not Mrs. Curl's. Your remedy is your own and not Mrs. Curls. Your advocacy of a remedy that you think appropriate based on your suffering is not entering into her suffering but asking her to enter into your own. Rather than showing compassion, you are showing the exact opposite.
There is a prayer asking for wisdom to "say the right thing, at the right time, for the right reason." Mrs. Curl is at a very difficult time. Maybe the many statements here are the "right thing" and said for the "right reason." But, nobody on this blog (myself included) knows if this is the right time. It requires intimate understanding and knowledge of where she is at right now.
Sidebar: Did you know a marriage is more likely to survive if a spouse catches the other spouse in bed than if they lose a child? While the couple may have been perfectly compatible prior to the death of their child, two things may occur.
1) One or both of the spouses go to a place that creates a divide that they just no longer have the strength to broach. The marriage essentially fails from exhaustion.
2) Each parent deals with the grief in such different ways they become to resent the other. Until I developed the compassion (enter into her suffering and not make her enter into mine) to understand my wife this was a very real risk, I resented when she would say at the last minute she wasn't going to a social event. She had pulled Sydney "out of her box" and wasn't willing to share Sydney or her emotions. On the other hand, she resented why I sometimes insisted on going without her until she developed the compassion for me to understand my need to not have Sydney in a box but take her with me everywhere I go.
I tell this story for one reason. If my wife and I who are suffering the exact same loss have different walks requiring different paths, I can't pass judgment on what is best for Mrs. Curl.
I'll also pose this rhetorical question (rhetorical because even if you answer it I already know the real answer):
If Ms. Curl were asking for money to visit SD to protest the execution, or protest the level of state support for the mentally ill, would the people who sent her money have sent anything?
Justin, perhaps different people would have sent her money. It really doesn't make any difference, does it?
Of course different people would have sent money.
You're right, in one sense it doesn't make a difference: It's exploiting two deaths for political agendas and money in either case.
But it does demonstrate that anybody that gave money and wouldn't under different circumstances has less compassion for Ms. Curl than they are claiming and cares more about their own political convictions than they do about her situation.
Justin,
LOL
You not only can peer into the hearts of those who gave to Mrs. Curl but you also have the gall to lecture on compassion.
Go back and read your comments on ACA and tell me which of us needs "gall" to lecture on compassion.
But I know, you can't be attacked on your record because you lost a child.
Talk about gall.
I don't know if anyone is reading this anymore except Justin.
Anyway, my first comment was in essence for this thread to go away. Because of anonymity, things would get said that could be hurtful to Mrs. Curl, as well-intended as they might be.
Americans know all they know about grief from what was learned in WWII-"get over it, we have a war to win. Grieve later." Unfortunately, we never let people grieve.
Prior to WWII, women carried a black scarf in their purse and men a blank handkerchief in their pocket. If they experienced a "grief burst" they would put the scarf/handkerchief on signaling to others they were grieving. Neighbors then knew how to respond. But overtime, without the signal the societal knowledge of how to comfort disappeared and was replaced with the social expectation to get over it.
Everybody experiences loss of parent or loss of sibling later in life so to some degree we handle that better as a society.
I tell you this not because I expect sympathy from any of you. When I am experiencing a grief burst, you won't know it as I won't be reading this blog. And when, I come back, it will have passed.
But there are times when the burst is more like a multi-day soaker. For my wife, on example is leading up to Sydney's birthday. For me it, is family gatherings. When these periods arise, we aren't rational or capable of handling much of anything. We just want to get through it.
Why am I telling you this? Because I knew the resolution of Moeller's execution would bring on a long period of Mrs. Curl becoming all-consumed with grief. I knew she would get up everyday nearly unfunctional and go to bed that way.
A week after I began my walk, I got a long letter from a father who had lost his daughter 22 years ago. I didn't know him and have only had lunch with him once. One of the wisest things I heard was his advice to embrace the grief bursts as they will be shorter and keep me from getting sick. It is the price I must pay for loving and missing my daughter. When I read about the hanky/scarf lost tradition, I recognized he was telling me to wrap my hanky around my arm.
When the execution date was announced, 75 years ago, she would have darned her black scarf and everyone would have basically responded with great caution, discretion, and those closest to her with compassion. Any fraternal correction for what she did now would be postponed until later when the "soaker" passed. Now, in this age of instantaneous communication, it occurs at the worst time and ends up being only harmful.
I have been writing on this blog since before I began this walk 945 days ago and except for two friends who I know read this blog, I don't think anyone knew this had occurred. I was hesitant to bring it up and only did so out of concern for my comrade, Mrs. Curl.
Everything Mrs. Curl does and says until the execution is done during an all-consuming soaker. They may have an outward appearance of being irrational but are wholly rational and unique to her.
One of the stories I read in one of the many books I've read in the last stories was from a guy who lost an older sibling he didn't remember as he was the youngest. He told of whenever his Dad had a grief burst, his dad asked his mom to go for a drive to talk and mom went without fail. She was always there for him. But, when Mom had hers, the neighbor lady came and made supper while Mom mostly stayed in her room and made sure they got baths and to bed on time. And, those nights Dad didn't come home for supper but went to the bar, often brought home by the police. This son soon became to resent his dad because he seemed to disappear when Mom needed him dumping on the neighbor.
One day he said a mean thing to his Dad about it. His Dad's eyes welled up and he left the house. Years later after his Dad died, he mentioned this to his Mom who explained his Dad couldn't handle these moments as husband and she understood and never resented him for it.
The point: I don't really know. It just came to me.
But, because of the public nature of what is occurring now, society is involved. I just think if we do anything, maybe playing the role of the good neighbor is all we can do. No questions, no comments. Just helping.
Let her put on her black scarf. Please.
And feel free to attack my views on political views.
So, as a lawmaker, what do you plan to do to make things better for the next Tina Curl? You have a tremendous position to initiate change.
That black scarf sounds too much like a veil of unrestrained relativism, a free pass to excuse any irrational act as rational, any unhealthy act as healthy.
Maybe your point is that grief makes reason and morality meaningless.
I can see wearing that black scarf to say "Leave me alone for a bit. I can't handle reason and morality right now. Let me withdraw to the privacy of my grief." I won't chase you into that temporary withdrawal.
But when you wave that scarf in public and ask for help in behavior that you won't let us reason out, the picture changes. When you ask us to help you use your grief to place a public stamp of approval on an unjust use of state power, the killing of a subdued, unarmed convict, you grant the rest of society at least the permission to say, "No, that's not a proper or useful course of action." It moves from a personal expression of grief to a political view... which, as you invite, Troy, we are free to attack.
My effort was to engender understanding for Mrs. Curl during this time. It is obvious nothing I said made any sense to you nor did it touch your humanity.
Both of us though are most fortunate you did not say that to my face.
This time I am really gone.
A threat seems like the perfect way for such a compassionate man to end his pleas for sympathy.
Frankly, I come away from this far more concerned about you than Tina Curl. You need help that you apparently aren't getting.
My father used to tell me, it is better to sit in silence and have people wonder what you are than to open your mouth and give them no doubt. After 40 posts from you, it is obvious winning is everything.
To continue to hack at my friend without trying to put yourself in his shoes is not compassion, deserves nothing from me in the way of compassion and I would reiterate Troys last statement Justin.
I should digress though, mental illness deserves compassion.
So you thought another threatening message would make you seem like a good guy?
If all I cared about was winning, apparently I would be here spilling my own personal tragedies to avoid the discussion topic, despite the implications.
If you care about your buddy, get him some help.
If all you have to offer is another fistfight threat and another change of subject, you aren't helping anybody.
I'm here. If Troy comes back with another 10 paragraph post, I'll respond. The next time either of you spew discompassionate, hateful thoughts, I'll be here to remind you of your hypocrisy.
41
42. I told you I'm here to respond. Act like a first grader, and you should expect to be treated like one, Rocky.
Justin, if you are not yet embarrased on your own behalf, please know that I am embarassed for you. You seem to be reveling in intentionally cruelty here. If that's not your intent, you should clarify.
Conversely, if you have a compassionate point to make you have yet to make it, and instead are now acting like a bully.
There is no one to stand up to or talk down to here, so I wonder why you persist.
What do you gain by minimizing another's grief and arguing with them about the sincerity of it?
That's something assholes and punks do. Is that wat you're trying to project? How callous and tough you are.
If so, fine. We got it.
Can we move on now?
Troy anytime I see your name anywhere I read it.
Anyone who did not get tears in their eyes reading about your walk Troy does not have children or does not have a heart.
I pray regularly that God take me before he takes my children, even if that means today.
Troy I want you to know that occasionally I see a young women with that beautiful smile Sydney gave us; and I smile with her in all God's glory.
And if I don't quit now I'm going to start crying. :)
Dang you Charlie, now you have me crying.
If I am a bully for being threatened, you are an imbecile for your logic. If you want to threaten me, too, go ahead. Until then this is a forum to use grown up words.
I've apparently made 43 posts now and you haven't read a thing I've said.
Instead of hurling insults and expletives, try reading what I've written. It was horrible for me to say Curl would profit, right? Only if you ignore the fact she has since admitted it.
You say I have said nothing about compassion, despite the fact I even sourced quotes when I pointed out the hypocrisy. Despite the fact that I noted the hypocrisy of a woman screwed over by our state only to be paid to come back and be a figurehead for the pro life clique at an execution.
You either can't read, can't comprehend or don't want to comprehend because you by into the concept that Cory describes as a "free pass to excuse any irrational act as rational".
Finally, please explain oh Sanctimonious Superior One, if everybody that says they want this conversation to end, why can't you stop replying to it and addressing me?
Thanks for proving my point, Justin.
Thanks for replying again and proving mine.
Use your last name Justin, so ALL of us know who you are please.
Justin: you have made more sense in this thread except for maybe Cory.
This woman is destined to spend the rest of her life beating herself up for leaving her child vulnerable to a predator.
Paula, you wouldn't know me anyway, just like I don't know you.
I don't care to know you either, so if you guys want to track me down and burn my house and slander my name you'll have to knock those empty coconuts together and concoct another avenue to do so.
Frankly you're not worth the time and energy Justin. I just wondered if you are man enough to give your full name. Usually people who spew their venom and cruelty do it behind anonymity; thus you prove my case. Maybe the "regulars" here know who you are, but me and possibly some other lurkers would like to know.
Ms. Curl is a victim of private health care: had she had access to free mental health care her life would be far different.
This woman should be on suicide watch.
Anyone heard whether Moeller will give his brain to the Med School?
#donaldmoellersbrain
Are any of his civil rights still intact?
Larry, you know nothing about what's going on in that woman's mind.
Nothing.
For you, or Justin to presume you do is the same kind of baloney mind-reading you frequently accuse your GOP opponents of doing.
It's not true for them, and it's not true for us.
Say all you want to about whether or not you think it's okay for her to ask for money, but every single one of us is the net product of our life experience, including everything we stand to gain or lose.
And bottom line, that is nobody else's business.
Death penalty and all other issues aside, that's the whole libertarian point, in a nutshell, isn't it?
...
And Justin, if you're not willing to tell us your name, even as you insult people, you are both coward and a fraud.
I say make a decision, either say who you are, or keep your opinions about others to yourself. Those are your two "integrity" choices.
The others are for punks and assholes.
Exactly, Bill: If you look, you will see that I resurrected this thread. From my perspective, the crux of this dealio is that I am defending Cory's post and his opinion.
The ensuing shitstorm is merely a metaphor.
Interesting that the main commenter on here shares the same attributes as the scum-bag awaiting execution.... evil and cruel. It's obvious you have multiple accounts, dude, which makes you even more pathetic.
All the best to Mrs. Curl on her journey. May you find some sense of peace from it.
Cheers to Bill and Paula! Refreshing to read quality comments by people like you. Thank you! :)
My only critique of Cory's position is that he assumes Ms. Curl is telling the truth when she says she knows witnessing the execution won't cure her resolved grief issues... won't bring closure.
First, how could Cory know that? And even more to the point, how could Ms. Curl? Do any of us know in advance when we're going to change our minds? This, I believe, was Troy's one and only point.
The rest of his storytelling was by way of what I considered very generous sharing in a space which he (perhaps mistakenly) presumed was one of friendship and respect.
I think of these conversations as analogous to sitting around a table, looking each other in the eye, and talking. A conversation among friends.
And I gotta tell ya, sometimes, I feel like getting up and moving to another table.
Personally, I think the "look me in the eye when you say that" test is a good one. Why shouldn't that be the standard?
If we wouldn't say what we have to say to someone's face in front of a room full of other people, why would we say it at all?
I would say every word I've said here to the eyes of the people concerned. I would consider it good fortune for us all to have the chance to do that.
And Charlie, you know I have a child. You overstate your case.
Now let's turn down the heat, huh? Justin, no one here is going to come burn down anyone's house. We can all own our words. We can disagree passionately on issues. We can come to opposite conclusions. But we all need to practice disagreeing while living in community. Troy, Paula, Bill, Larry, and I haven't taken a swing at each other. I'm even going to give Troy the benefit of the doubt and say that he's not really issuing a threat, because he knows we don't solve our problems by throwing punches.
Names make us accountable. Mrs. Curl is accountable. So am I. I encourage all to use them.
CAH; my posting here had nothing to do with you or anyone else except Troy. My feelings matter; as they have historical basis, but not anywhere near what a parent feels losing a child. Few have; or ever should.
GodSpeed......
Charlie, I don't question your feelings. I question the statement you make about how someone with my opinion must not have a child. Even as we respect feelings, we must ground our statements in reality.
With all the evil and hatred I am supposedly spewing, it is ironic that all the name calling and insults are directed at me and not coming from me.
Sorry Cory, that is not what I meant my post to imply. No harm intended upon you; only , well, I think you get it actually.
A 21st Century Montana court suspends executions: MT-ACLU.
Doh!
"Tina Curl's Remark Not Misguided,Exaggerated;
He'll pay for ever laying a hand on her.
Mark, I feel like you're missing the point of the discussion.
Dear Sir
I 'Have Buckley's Chance' In Regard To Your Feelings Of The Discussion
I Only Have The Chance To 'Agree To Disagree'.
My "feelings"? No, it sounds to me like you're copping out against stronger logical arguments... or, more accurately, ignoring the thrust of the article just to post your own gut-level approval of state-sanctioned blood vengeance.
Dear Sir
I refer to your previous comment.
I don't get to say it to God so I say it to the person who needs to hear it.
Did you get that from the Whoopee Cushion.
So you have been forsaken by God to the point he/she/it/they won't listen your prayers?
It seems odd you would direct those prayers to an atheist like Cory instead.
I honestly now have no idea what Mark is saying.
Justin
Your Comment
I guess I need some state sponsered spectacle celebrating our 'values'
You could set up a vendors table selling pig's bladders to the usual suspects on the execution day Autographed bladders from child molesters etc. Execution merchanding etc. Don't worry about getting accused of inproper activity ,Pay-pal accounts are easy to open.
Mark seems totally clear to me, Mr. H.
God does not exist so he can't say it to God and he's saying it to you again. But you get your ideas from a whoopie cushion. I think that means Mr. Nessalhuff.
I'd rather deal with Troy and Paula's moral assault than the vague irrelevancies of the last few comments.
Dear Sir Your Prior Comment
But if I prayed, that's what I'd pray for: that the grieving person always remember but reach beyond her pain,take the hand of humanity.
You could sponser a' Simon the Cyrean' with the gnarled paw at the execution holding the placard that clearly say's Folks on disability checks this way.
Wow, I'm thinking a road trip with you oughta be a rip-roaring hoot! 4.00/per gal for gas? Sign me up cuz I haven't seen gas that low in ages. And, 70.00/per nite for lodging?? Maybe if you don't mind being surrounded by dealers and crack 'ho's, and even then, converting the hourly rate into an all-nite stay might still be more than 70.00. And, the big live-it-up food budget of 15.00 a day per person? Yes, 3 mcdonalds happy meals per day would cost more that your budget allots for! Haha! Dude, she might be a freeloader, but you're a cheapskate!
Who was the jackass who wrote this?
yer math is all screwed up... $80 a night for a hotel? one day one the road? $30 a day for food? what planet are you on...and, it is only $4000... she had her daugher taken from her brutally.. raped and throat cut.. at 9...what is $4000 to see this killer die...6 days on the rad plus 7.. $1300 hotel, $50 a day for food...another $700, gas 2800 miles.. 25 mpg $500.. so, minimum $2500...what's an extra $1500... spread out.. you know, wealth redistribution... go O'bummer.. now where do I contribute?
Justice is a dish served ice cold.
When the tribes move to Mexico and get statehood we will all call it room temperature justice.
My identity, Chris, is (a) clear and public and (b) irrelevant. Mrs. Curl is spending money on a roadtrip that will do her no good. Her money—excuse me, your money, other people's money, money given in a misguided spirit of bloodlust masquerading as charity and sympathy—would be better spent paying her daily bills and living, not making the hard trip to South Dakota to relive her pain and watch a pathetic old man die at our hands.
You guys haven't murdered Moeller yet?
Has Mrs. Curl publicly sought more donations to get home?
Dear Cory,
Agreed, you are irrelevant. Some pin-head blogger offers a worthless opinion; yes, irrelevant. Do you have a real job?
How do you even assume to know what will do this lady good or not? Where did you get your degree in Psychiatry from? your profile says you teach French and you have a BA in Russian or something.. so, how does this qualify you to render an opinion on anything? Or, are you just an opinionated HS teacher who thinks blogging about things they don't know about is cool to impress all the little kiddies...??
Bloodlust??? Do you have children? Can you even begin to imagine what this lady went through?? How can you??
he is going to die whether or not she is there... there will be no blood. She wants to see his life end...do yourself a favor, stop blogging to make yourself heard. You are a small man and I see you getting smaller as you press this issue.
Is it your money? Are you supporting her? So, why do you care? And, as far as I can remember, she is disabled... and, your math is still all screwed up... I can see you 1) don't leave SD to know what it costs to travel 2) didn't take any math in school
Here's my suggestion for you. Don't waste your time blogging. Use the time you spend blogging 1) improving your math skills 2) not worrying about what other people do (I can tell you are a lib because you feel you have the right to even comment about this) 3) learning something new to teach the children you are PAID to teach.... OBTW. your paintings are horrid... I'd stop wasting time trying to paint....
Ok, you have the freedom to not come on a liberal blog. Noone is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to read his posts. What, are you surprised that a liberal blogger is against capital punishment? Do you also regularly go into Dairy queen and scream at the hapless workers that you are lactose intolerant?
Ok. That was funny, Bree. Kudos in kicking the guy in the throat who's taking time to post on what he calls an irrelevant guy's blog. Irony.
Agreed Taunia, definitely ironic.
Chris, you are the irrelevant one. Oh, by the way, I just spent two weeks in motels traveling with both of my dogs and driving 4,000 miles. Gas, motels and food were under two grand, and I had sushi twice and got my first taste of bone marrow at Meat and Pototatoes in Pittsburgh, which I highly recommend. I doubt you actually leave the state, though.
huh? kicking me in the throat, oh please... really... here's a funny one... you uneducated twits feel you are so superior, and yet, when your comments are analyzed, they are found to be ignorant and childish.. ha..
I also have the freedom to post.. and, as a veteran, someone who has protected freedom, I shall use my right whenever I choose...
Also, I don't see where Cory says he is against capital punishment... just he feels Tina is wasting her time... yet, how does he know?
Is he clairvoyant? Does he ponder on the meaning of life when he should be earning he pay teaching the youth of SD? Or, does he offer an opinion formed on nothing but ideological concepts drawn from the ether...
One who has no children much less suffered through a horrible death of a nine year old has no relevant basis to comment from... sorry...oh, ouch, that you thinking you are kicking me in the throat??? pretty violent for a lib now, aint it??
Oh Justin, what, 3rd grade? maybe fourth? I'm rubber you're glue.. ha...
I have lived in 7 different states, thank you very much , and have been to 7 different countries outside of the US...I have traveled, than you very much...
And why I should care about your dogs, is beyond me.. please send receipts do I can verify the validity.. and, BTW, why are you jumping in?? Don't you have school tomorrow.. got to get some sleep....
Cory has a daughter, moron.
I find you calling anybody uneducated rather uneducated. You need to fall in line with the GOP rule that education is bad.
Did you take advantage of the GI bill to get an education?
Just how drunk are you Jethro?
snif snif, you called me a bad name.....the GOP rule that education is bad??? hmm, must have missed that one.. please send link, and yes, I did use the GI Bill..... don't know what that has to do with the lady wanting to see her daughter's killer die...
but, like most libs, you find it hard to stay on topic...now, focus, and stop name calling.. it is silly to call a person you don't know names, and I am too old to be worried about you calling me names....don't bother me a bit... ha ha ahahahaha
You have a privilege to post here, given by Cory. He owns this blog. You have no rights here.
Why don't you start your own blog and give yourself all the privileges and rights at your own place.
Chris, you are reacting to this post in an unhinged manner. You even managed to insult Cory's painting skills. Wipe the froth off your mouth and uncross your eyes. I have yet to see Cory post anything insulting. He sticks to postings which are politely wrong.
Chris, since you're new here, I'll try to get you up to speed.
One of the main theses of this blog is that you and I usually are not the story. You have fallen into what is called in Latin the "ad hominem" attack. You throw insults "at the man" which may offer you a sort of macho barroom satisfaction but which add nothing to understanding the issues that matter (in this case, capital punishment and grief). As I have often said, even if you prove irrefutably that I am an SOB, that alone does not change the truth if the things coming out of my SOB mouth.
Now, in an attempt to dig out some relevant arguments from the froth:
Yes, I have a real job, unlike Mrs. Curl's husband, who could use the time and money spent on this trip to shine his shoes, send resumes, and go to job interviews back home.
I do travel domestically and abroad. I stand by my travel numbers as a rough estimate of how much I would spend on such a trip if I were trying to keep by frugal with other people's money.
I do oppose capital punishment. I have put my name to several public statements to that effect. This killing is unnecessary and immoral. Giving money to help a woman watch this killing serves no purpose but to stoke the bloodlust I hear in Chris's words. It's like the five-year-old who shrieks at his three-year-old brother's naughty behavior: we think we can act with impunity when we witness evil. Some dark part of our soul enjoys punishing others. We enjoy killing, especially when we think we can justify it. We must resist and be more civilized than that dark part of our souls.
[And Chris, please check your e-mail and reply.]
Cory,
Yes, you and your pals make yourselves the story when you interject, wrongly, your opinion and beliefs.
The story is a lady who's daughter was brutally murdered wants to see the killer put to death. she didn't have the money, and asked for support. Period. End of story, until you offered your opinion.
Your opinion is that she is wasting her time and other people's money.
Here are the facts.
1. She wants to go. If it does or does not give her satisfaction, that will remain with her and her thoughts to take with her till she meet her end.
2. She asked for support and got it. That fact that her estimation might be too high is between her and those who gave her money. If you did not donate, why does her estimation bother you?
3. The killer will be put to death if she is there or not. If you disagree with capital punishment, that is between you and the state.
I am not sure what this blood lust is that supposedly Curl and I have... I get the sense that you see this as a killing and not just punishment. I see it a justified punishment for a horrific act. Is it more cruel to execute a person or leave a person locked up for 50 years and die in prison? depends on the person. This man has accepted his fate. It should be his decision.
So, the story, a benign one, has turned into you pushing your beliefs onto others because you feel you know best. well, sir, you do not.
And the 'Dark Part of our souls' allowed this man to rape and cut the throat of a 9 year old... it is justified.. do we enjoy killing, or is this person deserving of the punishment he earned?
I think I hear in your words that you over dramatize.. what she is feeling....no blood lust, just fair punishment without costing me 50 years of food, medical and clothing for someone who sinks to the depths that this man did.
In the end, now or in 50 years, he will face his true punishment.....executing him only ends his mortal life...and, I am not a God freak...
And, tell your pals not to attack me...and I won't make this a us versus them....Justin needs to grow up a bit
Justin claims to be an aging alumni, but I think we all know better.
There is not a thing in this world that should be Donald Moeller's decision Chris.
"interject wrongly your opinion and beliefs"—someone please explain how my interjection differs from Chris's in any way that justifies his very personal rage at my expression but permits his expression.
The story is not benign, Chris. A woman is playing to the emotions of others to raise money for a lost cause. The donations also reinforce an unhealthy desire for the blood of criminals, to wreak ultimate, unrestrained vengeance on the ultimate, irredeemable "other." Mrs. Curl's story and the way folks like Chris and others here have portrayed it try to place the capital punishment debate behind a wall where we can't debate it. Her daughter died. How dare you question her? There can be no debate about the merits of her wishes. Baloney. Saying that capital punishment is an unjust practice entails saying that a desire to watch that unjust practice is itself unjust.
Chris says, "The killer will be put to death if she is there or not. If you disagree with capital punishment, that is between you and the state." But that statement is meaningless. We are the state. The disagreement is among us. The disagreement belongs here, in public.
We don't need to kill Moeller. We can be better than him. Tina Curl doesn't need to watch him die. She needs to turn her back on him, stay home, take care of herself and her family. Money spent on this execution and trips to watch it is money that could be better spent on other, life-affirming activities. We are as entitled to express disapproval of those actions as Chris is entitled to express approval.
(And notice, Chris, I've managed to respond without calling you a "jackass" or "pinhead" or questioning your professional credentials. Now check your e-mail and reply.)
It is benign.. lost cause? how so? is this your opinion, or a fact?
How many organization play at the heartstrings to collect money...dogs, cats, kids with cleft lips.. etc... so, who cares about this one instance... why does it bother you?
How do you know that capital punishment is more cruel than keeping a person locked up for the rest of their natural lives...I think never being free again is a very cruel punishment...
Here is a fact:
1. you disagree with capital punishment
2. it bothers you that she is going to see a person die
3. It bothers you that she could not afford it and asked for help to see a person die...
see the common thread... you.. it is you that has the problem... execution is legal in SD. This criminal committed an act worthy of the death penalty. He was convicted of the crime and sentenced by his peers....
End of story....we are not the state. I am not sure what country you think you live in..... you don't live in a commune.... you live in a country with a representative government... they are the state, and make the laws...
you can either live by them, change them, or become a criminal...
You making absurd statements that she is wasting her time and other people's money is a waste....
The thing that bothers me most is that you feel that you have the right to impose your opinion on her.. why?? she has every right to do what she did. If she is wrong, she has to live with it, not you....
She is an individual, as you are, and deserves respect. You might not agree, but you should respect her decision as I would hope she would respect yours... like wearing purple socks... I don't agree, but who am I to judge..
And, if you wish to call me names, as you pals have, go for it.. don't bother me none..
"We don't need to kill Moeller. We can be better than him. Tina Curl doesn't need to watch him die. She needs to turn her back on him, stay home, take care of herself and her family. Money spent on this execution and trips to watch it is money that could be better spent on other, life-affirming activities. We are as entitled to express disapproval of those actions as Chris is entitled to express approval."
Nay, I never said I approved. I disapprove of you butting in and making comments what another person should do...I could say the same about you... wasting time painting your 'abstract' art....see what you say.. she needs to do this and that.. no, she does not... who do you think you are to judge her actions if has no bearing on your life?? it bothers you... be a man and get over it and keep your opinions to yourself..
my opinion of you is that you probably spend too much time in your french poetry books and not enough time in reality...death is part of life, and this man earned a faster ticket to the other side...
just saw this....""interject wrongly your opinion and beliefs"—someone please explain how my interjection differs from Chris's in any way that justifies his very personal rage at my expression but permits his expression."
personal rage??? please, don't think I am in any way enraged by you. You must hold a very high opinion of yourself to think that a person like you could 'enrage' me...
If this is your Flowers, Rainbows and Unicorns Face, I cannot imagine your Rage Face.
Good thing Cory has this forum for you to vent on. Guess you're interjecting yourself into the story, too. Huh.
the funniest thing is that, after reading some very well thought out and written posts vying against your position, you have not seen the folly of your ways...
Why is that???
Chris, you ramble and flail, but you keep missing the mark.
You advance no rhetorical ball by asking if a statement here is opinion or fact. Every assertion you make is at least as opinionated as mine, meaning that your point, if it held any power, would neutralize all discussion. That's pointless.
You construct three sentences to include the word "you" in them and conclude... what? That I am an egomaniac? Essentially you are saying, "You are making an argument. Therefore, you have the problem and I don't need to respond to any of the arugments you have offered." Absurd.
"approval"—you play word games to avoid owning your position and the logical conclusions they entail. But you say Moeller earned his ticket to death. You approve of our killing him. You do not respond to say why a civilized society cannot choose other non-lethal methods to neutralize his lingering threat. You defend Mrs. Curl's choice to beg for money to watch this execution. Please do not pretend agnosticism; agnostics never argue this hard.
"Be a man and keep your opinions to yourself"—please, everyone, tell me I don't have to explain the inherent absurdity of this statement.
(So, "Chris", are you going to check your e-mail and respond to the private message I sent you?)
I don't have a flowers, rainbows and unicorns face.. I tend to live in reality..
no, you would not like me when I am mad...'bruce banner'
I am interjecting myself, as you are, in Cory's ..hmmm, poorly thought out argument,,, he shows no fact nor is convincing.. I can tell, it just bothers him.. sad, very sad... there is a whole world of bother out there for you Cory.... you just need to go out and find it...
no, actually we can skype.... so I can see your face.. e-mail and this forum are so non-personal...
God put him on this planet just to test you Chris. And once you have made it through this trial, you will finally receive the sainthood you so richly deserve.
(Chris, you provided me an e-mail address. Respond, please... and e-mail me your Skype contact info.)
But let's not lose track. Neither my manhood nor Chris's is an important issue. The state's use—our use—of lethal punishment is.
well, let's see how smart you are.... you have my e-mail address...
(Oh for Pete's sake -- this is not the pissing contest this issue deserves, Chris. Let's just stare at each other's LinkedIn profiles all night.)
ok, I declare myself the winner.... good luck in life Cory, I'ma thinking yer going to need it
so, you found my linkedin profile, yet cannot figure out how to find me on skype....that true???so, what do you think.. pretty impressive....huh
[Wrong blog, Chris. We come here to talk about the issues, not about each other. Neither you nor I warrant such attention.]
[As for Skype, your profile is relatively easy to find, but I prefer the asynchronous.]
If I read that right, that was pretty low, Bree.
I get the distinct feeling Chris might be mostly peeved he doesn't get to personally give the injections to Moeller. I might be wrong.
He's annoying - and the reason I have to constantly read comments about being racist, homophobic, stupid, etc. And I didn't think it was that low, just bitingly sarcastic.
Cory,
Not sure why you prefer the asynchronous type of communication versus face to face…I would really like to Skype with you on this
And you are correct, this is not about me. It is about YOU and the fact that you feel the need comment about someone else’s decisions. This is not about her decision to go, because in a free society none of us has the right to question a decision when it does not affect anyone else. Should I have the right to blog about you wearing purple socks and how I think you spent too much on those socks and how I think they make you look…….get the picture?
Your post says she asked for too much, based on YOUR calculations. Did you ask her why she needed $4000? If she had asked for only $2000 would it bother you, the money part I mean? So, unless you ask her how she came up with $4000 all your assumptions are just assumptions and not facts.
You also say she is spending other people’s money… once a gift is given, it is not yours and the person receiving the gift is free to do with the gist as they see fit.
Your commentary about it not doing her any good to see him die is also YOUR speculation. You will never know if it brings her relief or not because you will never ask her nor does it seem that you care about the victim enough to ask. You have made a judgment based on how you THINK you would feel based on your current belief system and then have attached that judgment on the free will of others to describe how they should feel or act. In my opinion, this is highly immoral.
You have never been in this situation and therefore cannot KNOW what you would do or feel if this occurred to you. The Doctor in CT whose wife and daughters were burned alive was against the death penalty until it happened to him. You can never know how you will react and what you feel until you are in that situation. You can only speculate. Hope that you never are in this situation.
Execution is a fact and it is saved for the most evil of criminals. How can you oppose its limited use as the final punishment? Does it deter criminals the way it is administered? No, obviously not. But why should a monster have the right to breathe air and go on living. These people have lost their humanity and deserve no human dignity.
So, in conclusion, this is about YOU and YOUR need to comment about a person who you don’t know and will never know and whose decision doesn’t affect you. If she has some lust to see him die, that lust will die on the gurney. My lust is to oppose people who would seek to strip freedoms from society because they just know better. In your case you seek to create some utopian civilization where everyone behaves and evil doers are put in the corner to think about what they have done.
It is a silly notion and you need to be exposed to the realities of life outside of small town SD.
#donaldmoellersbrain
His execution is scheduled for 10 p.m. Central Time on Tuesday at the state prison in Sioux Falls.
According to court records, Moeller abducted Becky O'Connell from a Sioux Falls convenience store where she had gone to buy candy and repeatedly raped and stabbed her. Her body was found in a wooded area the next morning with extensive knife wounds.
Moeller was convicted of rape and murder and sentenced to death in 1992, but was granted a new trial after the state Supreme Court ruled that testimony of previous attempted sexual assaults on three other people should not have been permitted.
Moeller was convicted and sentenced to death again in 1997. He continued appeals until recent weeks but at a federal court hearing in early October he admitted the crimes.
"If the rape and murder of Rebecca O'Connell does not deserve the death penalty, then I guess nothing does," Moeller told the judge, according to court records.
"In your case you seek to create some utopian civilization where everyone behaves and evil doers are put in the corner to think about what they have done."
Chris, I was going to stay out of this because several people made me so angry and frustrated here, but I have to tell you, what you wrote in quotes above is perfecto!
No, Chris, I think you're just enjoying playing bully. Otherwise, your comments would not focus so intensely on the personal, not to mention the irrelevant. That you characterize my error as a product of the small-town South Dakota thinking of someone who needs to get out and see the world proves both your bullying intent and your lack of knowledge about the person you've decided to bully. I remain unmoved.
I also remain correct.
Paula, I recognize utopia is the nowhere of its etymology. I have no expectation that sending Donald Moeller to a corner for the rest of his life would inspire him to think about his crime. Authorizing the state to kill unarmed, restrained prisoners enables the state to make fatal mistakes against the innocent. We should not kill when we do not need to kill. That's not a plea for utopia; it's a plea for morality.
(Sigh) everyone who has their opinion on the death penalty is probably never going to change the other sides' mind/opinion. This whole "conversation" here about Tina Curl got very ugly and it really shouldn't have because Moeller was tried, sentenced to death, and it will be carried out all here in South Dakota legally. And Tina Curl's daughter was the victim, and she has every right to be there to witness it without being judged. And anyone who wanted to donate to her travel expenses did so willingly, so that should be it. There was no need for personal attacks on ANYONE here. True, it is your blog Cory, and you can write about whatever you want, but I feel like if I ever disagree with certain people here, I am not welcome to give an opinion. Some people are just plain nasty and mean. People can agree to disagree and still respect each others' opinions.
I hope Tina Curl can find peace after the execution and improve her life situation somewhat. It's been a long hard road for her.
today's oxymoron: last word.
Paula, if someone is being nasty it means you're winning.
just before your liver is rendered into foie gras....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVlkZVAw8Gc
Paula, I welcome you to share your opinion at any time. You have as much right to do so as I have. You and I also face the same potential for public criticism. Criticism of our ideas is fair game; personal attacks are not. I will not hinge my argument on somehow labeling you a bad person, Paula, and if I have slipped and done that, I will apologize. But I know that proving that either you or I are anyone else on this thread is a jerk has no bearing on the validity of any arguments raised.
happy halloween, south dakota: Canwapekasna Wi - Moon When the Wind Shakes off Leaves.
ahh, I see, playing politician. Accusing me of personal attacks, and calling me a bully...and yet, do not directly answer my comments.
The fact is, (I love using that), you attacked, personally, Tina Curl and her husband, yet I am the bully for pointing that out? My, what a lovely world you must live in.
Let's think; would Cory be receiving all this negativity if he had not sought to belittle another human being? The mother of a murdered child. That was what you were trying to do? Show her how wrong she was and what a waste of time and money the trip was. She would do better staying at home and waiting by the phone for your call, not even collect. And I am a bully.
I think you are much more able to defend yourself than Tina is. So do it by proving me wrong in any of my statements, not just calling me names.
And, BTW, I am from a small town in the New England much like yours and I gained a world of knowledge moving from there. Every do a ride along with local police in a big city to see how 'the other half' lives?? if not, I would recommend it. I am sure it would be eye opening for you.
"Authorizing the state to kill unarmed, restrained prisoners enables the state to make fatal mistakes against the innocent. We should not kill when we do not need to kill."
Authorizing?? It is the law of your state. Sorry officer, I didn't 'authorize' you to stop me from running that red light.
Would you feel better if he was not restrained and armed?
I am not sure that 'fatal mistakes against the innocent' really applies in this case as he admitted to it and has asked to stop all motions. a quote from the killer...
"While prison officials anticipate protesters to gather outside the prison, Moeller himself has fought a flurry of motions filed on his behalf to halt his execution. In July, he finally acknowledged killing Becky, and said it was time he paid for his crime.
"I don't want to die," he said, assuring a federal judge that he didn't simply have a death wish after so many years on death row. "I want to pay for what I owe."
I want to pay what I owe. Good for him. He used his free will and made a decision and that is that.
chris: consider self-immolating.
Yup, Chris. Mrs. Curl is wasting other people's money and her time on a trip that will not help her soul. She herself said during the fundraising that she didn't expect it to bring her closure. Her time would be better spent staying home, taking care of her help, and helping her husband look for a job. Mrs. Curl took the public stage; she invited public response. I consider her actions unhealthy for herself and for society.
I make this point, and I'm called a bully. But other poor people ask for help, Republicans shout, "Get a job!" and they are fine upstanding citizens. Double standard.
We authorize this killing with our laws. We the citizens are responsible for this killing. We authorize traffic laws with our votes and through our elected officials, so really, yes, you did authorize that policeman to stop you.
"fatal mistakes against the innocent"—absolutely applies to the policy. Sure, Moeller is guilty. He committed the crime. He's admitted to the crime. But to put in place the policy that authorizes the state to kill this bad man, we put in place a policy that, like all human institutions, will err, and thus will at some point kill (as it already has) innocent citizens. The benefit of killing a thousand unarmed, restrained evil men is not worth the moral cost of killing one innocent citizen.
I ignore Chris's other comments as irrelevant to the conversation at hand. That constant resort to irrelevancy further shows the weakness of his "argument."
you consider her actions unhealthy for her and society?? huh? We went over this.
1. Where did you get you training as a psychologist?
2. What do you base this on?
3. We have been executing people for hundreds of years, show evidence that it has caused negative effects on society
4. Why do you concern yourself with other people's decisions?
"The benefit of killing a thousand unarmed, restrained evil men is not worth the moral cost of killing one innocent citizen."
Prove it....what philosophy do you base this argument on? Kant, Aristotle,Mill, Locke??
1) What bearing does psychological training have on freedom of speech? And what are your professional credentials? Anyone commenting on this topic without at least an Associates in Opiniatics should be subject Federal Investigative Scrutiny for crimes related to unpopular anti-group-think.
2) Would you like bowl of ice cream?
3) Yes no one should give public vent to a belief without first providing statistical evidence. I mean, out of respect for all of the irrefutable evidence you have provided, he should at least make an attempt!
4) Chocolate or Vanilla?
"But other poor people ask for help, Republicans shout, "Get a job!" and they are fine upstanding citizens"
You are a republican??? well, good for you..they way you were brutalizing this poor woman, I would have thought you were. Thanks for confirming for me... and yes, I am a bully, my wife just told me so.. so, why don't you skype with me so you can put me in my place???
Bree, in answer..
1. the statement was that the execution will harm Ms. Curl and society. I asked what evidence through training could Cory offer... see the connection? Credentials? Veteran (6 Years), BS Engineering, MBA, working on second masters.. opps, got to do HW tonight, can't play
2.No, thanks.
3. I agee. Also, I did not make any assertions to what effect the execution will have on Ms. Curl or society as Cory did. Ergo, I need not offer any statistical evidence.
4. See #2
Cory is a liberal Democrat. I see nothing in his statement that made it sound like he was claiming otherwise.
Since you have just stated that Republicans brutalize poor women, can you provide me with any statistics to that effect? If you are going to make assertions, you must support them with evidence - or do you not have to follow the rules you make up?
yes, 0.001% of republicans brutalize poor women, 100% of liberals do with their social welfare programs...
Cory's a liberal democrat, no freaking kidding... ultra liberal methinks...
For those that view tonight's execution as the right thing based on the circumstances...please stop labeling yourselves as "pro-life" and be more accurate and label yourself "pro conception to birth."
Thanks.
you compare the life of an admitted child rapist and killer to that of an unborn baby? really? really?
Jana, thanks for getting him riled up again.
[Hey, Chris, if you're going to keep cluttering up my comment feed with your ego-stroking irrelevancies, why don't you take Gunnery Sergeant Hartman's advice on common courtesy, share this post with your conservative friends, and get some of them to ring the Madville Times tip jar?]
Bree. How about you defend the GOP with what they have done to support women, what bills they have voted against - can you say Lilly Leadbetter or Violence Against Women Act and just for fun the Blunt Amendment? There's more if you want to get into it.
How about giving us some insight into how the GOP agenda supports women at the lower end of the earning spectrum?
Don't try and sell us on the GOP as favorable to women without proof.
Bree, that should get you riled up too ;^)
Did you read Friedman's column?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/opinion/sunday/friedman-why-i-am-pro-life.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0
Cory,
I don't clutter anything up.. you are a typical liberal... anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, a bully, etc.. you use big fluffy words to make yourself feel good, but you have no substance and refuse to answer any of my posts in a mature factual manner...
how about this.. a 31 year old full grown man restrains and unarmed 9 year old girl and brutally rapes her, cuts her throat, and leaves her to die all alone... anyone who would defend this man's right to live has to has some deep seated fears... you fear death?
Answer my post and leave the liberal claptrap for your equally mentally depraved friends..
don't know why you don't just answer any of my posts. do you feel I am beneath you? Do you somehow feel mentally superior to me?
Oh Chris...do please do some mansplaining to your - "yes, 0.001% of republicans brutalize poor women, 100% of liberals do with their social welfare programs..."
Guessing that shouldn't be a challenge for someone of your intellect and experience.
In the classic words of Joe Friday..."just the facts ma'am."
you asked a stupid question, ya got a stupid answer... and no, you probably cannot compete with my intellect...
Good to know Chris...
Who needs my big fluffy liberal words? Let's hear from Dave Curl, husband of Tina Curl, who just witness our killing of his stepdaughter's killer:
"We despise this so-called man. The death of Donald Moeller will not give us closure; there will never be closure for us."
Read more of the Curls' public statement after the execution here. Then ask yourself if we aren't better off letting go of hate and living by the cautious rule of law and morality.
A 92-year-old WWII veteran and Methodist preacher, holding vigil outside the pen tonight: "There isn’t any logical reason to keep doing this, except to get even and be malicious."
Tina Curl: "Me with a knife would be fitting for him. Tit for tat. I wouldn't have a problem with it."
Hey Chris, you seem to be the designated spokesperson for the GOP. Why don't you tell us how the GOP response to Katrina was so superior to the Obama response to Sandy or any other disaster that we've gone through.
Thanks for the insight Chris...and there's bonus points for saying "Good job Brownie."
Wait...what? You mean when Romney said the states should handle these disasters on their own and FEMA was immoral...no way...that wouldn't be a good thing for the east coast.
Oh well, I'll let you tell the people impacted by Sandy that if they are good conservatives they should shoulder this on their own.
Good luck with that.
So Chris sent somewhere in the ballpark of $0.00 to the Curls so they could watch a murder. And they still haven't found closure like Cory suggested they would not.
Here's your big chance to donate to them, Chris. They'll probably need money to get home. If they have a home left back in New York. Redirect your rage and put your money where your mouth is.
I don't think anybody ever has "closure" when a loved one passes in any capacity. However in my opinion, and I am sure in the Curls', it doesn't bother me in the least that Moeller was put to death. I hope he had genuine remorse and begged his maker for forgiveness.
I don't feel all murders deserve the death penalty; but when you have the heinousness and torture of Rebecca that was involved in this case, Moeller deserved death. Why should we have to provide 3 meals a day, TV, reading material, healthcare, dental care, etc. for prisoners who do such evil things in our society? JMO of course.
It's done. He's been executed.
Now what?
Do we feel better?
Does the next whack job think twice?
Can we still say we celebrate life?
If the answers are easy, you probably aren't thinking.
Here is more of the article
Justice has been done...so, if they said they had closure, you would be okay with that??
SIOUX FALLS, SD - The family of Becky O'Connell says justice has been done for their daughter, but they still do not have closure.
O'Connell's mother and stepfather, Tina and Dave Curl, were witnesses to the execution of Donald Moeller. During a news conference that followed, the couple shared photos of Becky at nine years old when she was killed, photos of her grave where they went for her 32nd birthday and a portrait done by a law enforcement official of what she might look like today.
Jana,
Why do you celebrate the life of a child killer?
Oh,, PS, weren't the dems heading the city and state of LA when Katrina hit?? Tell me how their response to Katrina was superior to that of NY and NJ, with republican governor and mayor of NYC...
On August 27, 2005, Governor Blanco, speaking about Hurricane Katrina, told the media in Jefferson Parish, "I believe we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." Later that day she issued a request for federal assistance and USD $9 million in aid to President George W. Bush, which stated, "...I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal."
Good job Brownie...
Chris, I don't celebrate the life of a child killer. I also don't celebrate the state sponsored killing of even the lowest life of South Dakota.
Good to know that you celebrate state sponsored premeditated murder.
If you would like to get into the federal response to weather catastrophes I'm more than willing to have that debate.
Just don't let your "oh my god we shouldn't be giving them money" get in the way of our flooding in SD in 2011 critique of what role the government should have on disaster response.
Oh yeah...tell the people of New York, you know the ones that send more in taxes than they get back from the federal government, that they don't deserve a little help after Sandy.
Don't worry about it if you don't feel any national responsibility for the disaster the East Coast is going through. If it doesn't fit your political dogma, well then that's OK too.
I remember when we celebrated the 1st responders during 9-11. You remember them...they are the people you despise now with their unions...and stuff...now they are a drag on the GOP view of the economy.
Go figure.
I'll say it again.
It's done.
He's been executed.
Now what?
Do we feel better?
Does the next whack job think twice?
Can we still say we celebrate life?
If the answers are easy, you probably aren't thinking.
Jana,
I do not consider it murder. It is the law in SD. in what law book is this considered murder, or do you make up your own definitions to serve your purpose?
And yes, what role does the federal govt play in local disasters? Good question.
And, as a previous resident of NY, 5 years, I am quite aware of the taxes paid.
And, as a person who was born and grew up in the north east, I am aware and still have family there...
and lest you forget, I spent 6 years in the military.. I know what the 9/11 faced as I faced potential injury or death every day I spend on the submarine; fires, flooding, etc...
And, BTW, I also lived for 5 years in LA, and worked in New Orleans.. still have friends there...quite aware of the Katrina disaster and lived through Hugo in SC..
So, while you stay in quiet SD and comment, I have been places and had experiences you never had nor will ever have...
And, I still don't understand the 'WHY' of you and Cory disagreeing with Capital Punishment...why do you feel these people deserve to live? Can you describe the 'WHY'?
solipsistic much?
don't think you are using the word quite correctly, but I get your meaning.. and you missed my point..., or ignore it..when faced with a person that has more knowledge than you do, you are forced to defend yourself using words to diminish that person and their experiences so your argument seems stronger
consider joining a ketamine study.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/10/04/162299564/ketamine-relieves-depression-by-restoring-brain-connections
Chris, given your broad travels and superior intellect, it should be a simple matter for you to explain this analysis for us. Take your time. Be thorough.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
Bill,
This is not a study, it is statistics.... if you are suggesting that we are like most counties that still allow it, it looks like you are correct...or, is it you consider these countries backwards and equate the US to these backwards countries?
Oh, Larry, thanks for the info, but, to be honest, I am not depressed.... maybe you are because you were aware of this and I was not.
Very stupid answer, Chris.
I don't think you even looked at the information did you?
Come on, man show us your stuff!
p.s. I didn't offer an opinion, only data.
what you gave me the link for is not an analysis.. it is statistics... do you know know the difference? And, how stupid is it to ask me to explain an analysis. An analysis is a breaking down into parts ... the parts are the parts. all this does is break down what countries allow it, and which ones don't... do you expect a 'WHY' some do and 'Why' some don't? or, what is similar about those that do, and those that don't? obviously, that data is not provided... so, a stupid question gets a stupid answer... maybe you can explain it to the group....
oh, an 'explain this analysis' .. explain in what terms...?? you need to be clearer... you give me a vague request, then call my answer stupid when it does not meet your preconceived idea... I doubt I could have provided you an answer you did not call stupid...
julie by any other name
Julie/Chris is a paid GOP bot:
http://southdakotamagazine.com/initiated-measure-15
So that's why Cory talked about the linkedln profile and wanted a response to his email.
SD or national paid?
It's my Party and I'll cry if I want too...
Don't know, T. Cory might learn something from the html of the comment.
It IS broken down into parts. Didn't you look at it Chris?
Man, I thought you told us you were deep and smart.
Seems like all you know how to do is nitpick language.
And I had such high hopes, given your extravagantly vaulted claims about where you've been and how smart you are.
You're rellay laying a goose egg here, Chris, you know?
Ease up, BF. If Larry's right, Chris isn't paid to think. He's being paid a pittance to dominate the conversation in any fashion possible.
He could join a political op union and get those wages raised and some employee protections.
I don't see the similarity in writing patterns between the two so I think they are separate people. The GOP would not pay someone good money to make us look like insane bullies. I've seen this on both sides of the aisle and in plenty of other discussion areas. I think it stems from deep frustration and a sense of hopelessness, a belief that other people have power over your life and you lack the resources to do anything about it. But it also comes from a lack of respect for other people and other opinions. If Julie, Chris as well as angry liberals stopped and thought for a minute they would realize the person who disagrees with them is frustrated too, a lot of times about the same problems. Then, perhaps they would develop a little more tolerance and respect for other people's opinions and beliefs.
If we say as conservatives that we believe in freedom of speech and individual rights and responsibilities, and then attempt to bully and force someone else through abusive tactics to think the same as we do, then we look like hypocrites and have already lost the argument for our positions.
this is war, you stupid cow.
Now Larry. At the very least I am an intelligent cow. And would you let me graze freely in green pastures? That's all I ask for, freedom to wander.
Again, it doesn't matter much who Chris or I are. It matters that the Curls and those who donated to their roadtrip made choices that have done no one any good. Review the Curls' comments last night.
Yeah, Larry. I think "she" just insinuated an offer to let you graze her green pastures. What better offer do you have this holy Halloween? You, stud, you.
Meanwhile, Moeller's dead. How many children were murdered today?
What? Moeller's murder didn't stop child murderers?
Taunia, my grammar is a little rusty but I am perplexed as to your interpretation of my statement. Now I finally understand why our intercourse has been so unfruitful.
Well, according to the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform, 115,000 children are aborted worldwide each day. I think that's a good number to start with in our determination of total number of children murdered today.
My Analysis - most in the last 20 or so years, and still less than 1/2 of the countries outright outlaw it..see table below
Year Number Cumulative
Before 1900 4 4
1901 1925 6 10
1926 1950 7 17
1951 1975 9 26
1976 1989 18 44
1990 1999 31 75
2000 2012 19 94
Total % 48%
Chris's line about "it's law, so it's not murder" is a simplistic attempt to shut down debate. A law can be wrong.
Nor does any aspect of Chris's résumé or travel itinerary or personal narrative change the fact that the state does not need to kill unarmed, restrained prisoners, or that authorizing the state to do so means our fallible systems will ultimately kill innocent people who deserve to live, a morally, democratically unacceptable outcome.
Notice, Chris, I said that same thing earlier, twice, in comments since you've joined, so you already have one solid answer as to why I oppose the death penalty.
And I didn't know that citizens were required to cite Kant, Mill, or any other five-star philosopher in order to argue for their own vision of moral conduct in the polis. Get out your turtles: whom do your philosophers cite to justify their principles? And whom do those validators cite? And whom do they cite....
You will also note that I do not have to support my argument with an extension that explains why certain terrible criminals deserve to live. I do not have to sanctify Moeller, Robert, Berget, Poage, or any other past or present denizen of South Dakota's death row. Trying to make it sound as if I do is as silly as suggesting that I want to see Moeller armed and released.
The death penalty is bad policy. It leads to our committing an irreversible, irremediable crime against innocent citizens. It is unnecessary for securing the peace in a civilized society. It brutalizes us. It gives a small victory to the killers among us and the killer within each of us.
Not to keep this going, but I just read something I found interesting:
http://www.ksfy.com/story/19969547/family-receives-becky-oconnells-clothes-22-years-after-her-murder
It just proves to me that $4000+ in donations for travel expenses was WELL worth it for Tina Curl to come to SD. Hopefully she may in some way find some kind of relief. The money was justified!
Thank you for posting again Paula! I for one am very happy to hear your opinions :)
Thank you Bree :)
Cory's original posting and his opinion was that $4000 was way too much for travel expenses from New York and that Tina would be better off staying home and helping her husband find a job :( Once I read the article I linked in my post above, it's pretty clear cut to me that fact that Becky's mother got to not only witness the execution, but visit the site where Becky was found, and retrieve her clothing makes the trip worth it at any cost.
I've got to nitpick, Paula. The original fundraising pitch was to pay for the Curls to go watch us kill a man. I found that offensive and misguided. That's been the focus of much of the dispute here.
If you now say the expense and trip are justified by those other personal, private activities, you are changing the resolution to something very different, something I will not dispute. But that shift in itself does not rebut any of the points made above on the original post.
I guess that is the problem with my view on her "fundraising" for her trip; I never had a problem with it because I could empathize with her and put myself in her position and know that I would want to see my daughter's murderer executed. If you go back and read my way earlier posts, I didn't like that this was turning into a debate about the death penalty-you were questioning the amount of money she was asking for, knocking her husband for being out of work, and judging her for her fundraising. As I said earlier, I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind about capital punishment. I am for it; you and many others here are not. That doesn't make me or you bad people. We just have different views, different life situations, backgrounds, experiences, etc. I got knocked and so did Troy for sharing too much information on here by Justin. That was uncalled for when a person is trying to explain why someone might have a particular view on something. You seemed to think that a lot of people donated money to the Curls just because they are advocates for the death penalty; however I think most people probably just wanted to help these people out. There...I think I've probably babbled enough and gotten out what I wanted to say about it all :)
ahh, poetry to my ears... this could be wrong, and that could be wrong, and I just have my opinion...the state is bad, it is murder no matter what the law is, they are unarmed and helpless and we kill them, we are brutal.. it is much better to keep the killers and rapists of small children locked up forever, watching TV, appealing their sentence, reading law books and clogging up the legal system with appeal after appeal, eating, drinking, getting free medical and dental care until that day when they pass into the great beyond...not because their lives are worth anything anymore, just that we might make a mistake...that's your argument?
So, what percent are wrongly convicted? 10%, 1%, 0.1%??? Let's say 10%, what percent are then sentenced to death? what percent are then put to death? How many of those convicted of murder are actually put to death, and then what is the probability that they were innocent...after 20+ years of appeals? I would guess that the percentage get's diminishing small. And, with today's DNA evidence, and tracking of your every move, (ATM, video cameras, cell phones, on-star, etc), proving innocence will become more refined and accurate and the % of those wrongly convicted, will decrease...over time...
How many executions in SD in the last 135 years? 18...one every 7.5 years... how many people on death row right now 3? Since 1979 when the death penalty was reinstated, how many executions have there been? 3
the last 2 admitted they murdered, and asked to die....and the last one..
let's see what he did...
In April of 2000, Chester Allan Poage's body was found in Higgins Gulch west of Spearfish, stabbed and beaten. That's where more than a month earlier Elijah Page, Briley Piper and Darrel Hoadley took turns kicking him in the head 30 to 40 times. They stabbed him in the neck three times and pummeled him repeatedly with large rocks, making Poage beg for his life.
Piper -- who's from Anchorage, Alaska -- and Elijah Page of Athens, Texas, pleaded guilty to murdering Chester Allan Poage.
plead guilty.... I think, that the last 3, the only 3 since 1979, have been 100% without error..
But, mistakes do happen. So, your argument is that because we might make a mistake, we should not do it at all because we risk executing an innocent person? I like that.
So, if I extend that logic, if we do not have some very hard piece of evidence that a person committed any crime, we should not convict or lock that person up. Because as bad as it is to execute a person, locked up an innocent person for say 20 or 30 years has permanent mental scars that will never heal.
So, I say, unless you can be 100% sure that a person committed any crime, they should not be locked up. We should not reserve this concept just for executions, because what right does the state have to lock up an innocent individual??
I like it.
Pretty decent argument Chris.
thank you Bree.. now, off to do homework!!
RT @NelsonMandela
"The answer to the crime problem is not the death penalty, but rather ending the culture of impunity"
'They're My Fan Club' The pathetic response to the warden from the child molester and child killer, outside the penitientiary of course his groupies the nondenominational churches a congregated family ,upholding the sacredness of their performer the child molester and child killer ,who bankrolled the activites of this family the church plate can't be that full to throw cash at child molester groupies.
Mr. Moeller has been delivered from Hell and is now at the side of His Maker planning the next Bush Administration.
Semi-wrong, Mark. Moeller's comment strikes me as appalling as well, but the State of South Dakota clarifies that Moeller's last comment appears to have been a sarcastic response to other inmates who could be heard making noise nearby. Still pathetic, but not quite the insult I initially thought it was.
(Mark, you also have trouble putting together coherent sentences. Work on that.)
Pretty weak argument, Chris. We are talking about killing people. The inevitability of error does not deter me from advocating criminal penalties. However, that does not then require me to advocate all penalties.
Let's try a simple analogy. Here in the comment section, I occasionally penalize commenters for disguising their identity and pretending to be someone else. I may occasionally make an error, hitting "Trash" on a comment from someone I know. I try to pay better attention, try to confirm identities, and play fair, but I still carry out the delete penalty. I could also impose a more harsh penalty, like, say, flying out to cut off Chris's fingers. Such a penalty is excessive and immoral. But my refusal to engage in such physical reprisals does not somehow logically require that I abandon all moderation of the comment section.
Cory,
Sorry, you miss the point. We do not want to execute a person because it is cruel; is that not true?
Is it not only cruel to lock up a person for life? To take away their freedom? Does this not cause mental torture? And, if these people get out after 30 years, their lives are completely destroyed. Family has died off, chance for a family gone. Chance for a career gone. Is this not cruel and unusual? And, the effects on the person are everlasting. In jail at 25. Released at 55, and carry the stigmatism, depression, the loss of a lifetime the possibility of children, for the next 25 years? Is this not more agonizing than death?
And, how many times has this happened versus the wrong execution of an individual? I would guess that it happens many more times. We should strive for perfection to prevent this from happening!
Should we not require as much perfection in our justice system for other crimes that have the very real potential to cause significant harm to the innocent individual? Does this also not cause significant harm to the family, and society? Society now has to bear the burden of dealing with the innocent person and the devastation of 'his' life, but also the devastation that the real criminal remains free?
In your analogy, the penaltys are not close... losing fingers (kind of violent for a liberal, now don't ya think) and being kicked of this board...kind of like describing the difference between execution and having to eat spinach..
How about cutting off of fingers or throwing me in a basement for 2 weeks threatening to cut off my fingers every day. Should we not expect the same level of perfection from our system of justice to protect me from both cases? And if we cannot 100% prove someone guilty, we should let them go free? Why wait 30 years?
Oh, I was not making an argument. I was stating facts as I believe them to be. But yet, I am not perfect. Like our justice system, I do make mistakes.
We all do. In fact, is there anything perfect in the world? Even a perfect baseball games is not perfect. is 81 pitches, all strikes, a more perfect game than 27 pitches all for ground outs?
Can we define what is perfect in our imperfect world? Maybe we can define close enough to perfect, for perfection's sake, because as imperfect individuals, we cannot create anything that is truly perfect. Only God is perfect, but as you do not believe in God, there is nothing that is perfect.
So we impose a concept of perfection on our judicial system knowing it cannot ever be perfect, because we are not, and it ends up imperfect. What are we to do? I look for your guidance.
Chris, you miss the point. I defeated the argument that you just remade. No human institution is perfect. But the gravity of the error of killing the wrong man is unique. We compound the error when we commit it in executing a penalty that is not necessary for carrying out any of the four purposes of punishment: rehabilitation, defense against the criminal, deterrence, or retribution.
Your perfection argument is a non-starter. Every human system fails. We can find ways to restore a man to society after years of wrongful imprisonment. We cannot raise an innocent man from the dead. And we do no good for our souls by killing any man, even an evil man.
yea for Cory, he defeated me.. aint it nice to have your own blog where you can declare yourself the victor even when you are the only one playing?
I was not arguing. If you read, I was just probing your argument so I understood it better. I was trying to expand your argument to other parts of the judicial system so it strengthened.
And now, you think we are in a fight, and you have to declare yourself the winner? This hurts me deeply...I say you are correct, and that the argument is so good, we need to expand it. You have won me over...
just a question... it was said you are an atheist...do you believe in the soul?
And now we're back to the personal. Yawn.
I refer to the "soul" as a term my neighbors and I can share in discussing our moral and spiritual health. Killing people is not good for the soul. But as I thought, you aren't really arguing. As I said much earlier, you're just bullying.
you get bullied a lot, or think you do. See, this what adults do Cory.... yawn, I am boring you, because, instead of having an adult conversation, you would rather have all your little liberal friends here telling you how great you are and how right you are.... why did you even both starting this blog?? make yourself feel artsy? you drink starbucks and like to think you are deep and meaningful, don't you. Oh, I am a bully.... let me e-mail you my skype name, don't share, and we can become bestest of friends you and I... you want it?
And, how could this not be personal?? You are a person aren't you? You shared your thoughts as a person, didn't you?
here is your initial comment, to refresh your memory...
Mrs. Curl, we can spare you the trouble and expense. We'll call you when Moeller's dead. We won't even call collect.
Besides, Curl's fundraising goal of $4,000 for the trip seems a bit high. Here's my quick spreadsheet for a 2810-mile roadtrip for two people:
I know stuff happens on the road, but $2200 is an awfully big cushion.
we, we'll, we, my, I..... sounds like a personal message from you to Ms. Curl to me...with a little arrogant sarcasm mixed in...
(I never drink Starbucks.)
322 responses....did anyone ever suggest skype might be a better alternative?
what a novel idea... I think this thing is dead, along with the bad guy.. Cory whined a while, claimed he won the argument because "we are better that that, and we don't 'need' to kill a person" .. yada yada... then he left... on to bigger and better things.. I did offer my skype ID but he called me a bully and ran away
Chris, the reason to shun the death penalty is because every person is a candidate for redemption and transformation. Even the worst among us. Execution eliminates that possibility and thus perpetuates the very aspect of our nature that we so desparatly need to transcend ...our lack of compassion. Justice and compassion are not mutually exclusive, but rather, are one in the same.
P.S. for further study on this, see the Dali Lama's new book 'Beyond Religion.'
Anyone hear whether evidence of toxoplasmosis was found in the results of Moeller's brain autopsy?
Very good pen Flem and I agree. I don't understand why the mighty bald eagle omlet is considered a felony though?
Les, sure you do.
Bill brings up a good point that would seem to be in conflict with the faith of most in South Dakota. The power of Christ's redemption.
Of course we fund our schools and children from the ill gotten gains of gambling and usury...and that doesn't seem to register either as in conflict with the teachings of the Bible.
Speaking of usury...Go get 'em Reverend Hickey!
Reverend Hickey, if I may be so bold, why not open the committee hearing on banking regulations with a simple prayer asking for forgiveness.
"Dear Lord, please forgive our greed and lack of moral leadership in going against your Word by promoting usury and permanent poverty of your children Forgive us for turning our back on Your Word all for the sake of our own 30 pieces of silver that comes to us in the form of campaign donations. Forgive us for not using Your gift of intellect for choosing the easy way to raise revenue and create low paying jobs and not thinking of ways to replace those ill gotten gains."
I'm sure your supplication would be much better...but you get the idea.
Thanks again Pastor Steve!
I'm thinking the Dali Lama needs to hire Bill to promote his book.
I now have a great use for the Barnes & Noble gift card I found in my Christmas stocking.
If nothing else, Bill should get total consciousness on his death bed...I think Bill is around 85-90% right now...so he has that going for him.
Gunga Galunga Bill!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkLH56VlKT0
p.s. - Thanks for the opportunity to drag out a Bill Murray line from Caddyshack...I needed that!
how long does one need to figure out if they are a candidate??? Most killers spend 20 to 25 years on death row.. seems like enough time to be redeemed. If you are speaking in the christian sense, does it not just take a few minutes to be saved??? confess all sins and ask for forgiveness??
And why give compassion to a child rapist and murder?? they show no compassion, and deserve none..... God will take care of it all... they just get there faster, but not as fast as their victims ...evil deserves to be wiped from the face of the earth as fast as possible
Read your Bible Chris...you will find your answer.
Heck, there are thousands of stories of men and women who have led long lives astray from the Lord who find His redemption. Did God give a timeline for when redemption could happen. (Maybe it was in the Monty Python version of the Holy book of Armaments, right after the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.)
Oh ye of little faith!
Oops...sorry, did that get in the way of your inner authoritarian that likes to play God? My bad.
But let's take your words..."evil deserves to be wiped from the face of the earth as fast as possible"
Are usury and gambling evil? If so, should we wipe the lawmakers - who enable, promote and profit from those sins - from the earth? Or just vote them out?
Of course you may have a version of the Bible that was annotated by early lawyers whose job it was to find loopholes in God's word.
No, I don't Jana. Please explain. All I can think of from your statements here is we need more eagles to clean the mess when the blood runs to the horses bridle.
Jana....our laws are clear... the penalty for first degree murder is normally death... murder is the evil that garners the death penalty...
The laws are so clear that 18 states have chosen to not play God.
Heck, most of the civilized world sees the law as clearly against decent society.
Why not change the law...oh that's right, the far right nut jobs give standing ovations to governors for leading the league in executing people.
play God??? how do you do that? ever hear of free will??? is using free will play God? far right nut jobs... wow, way to win friends and influence people.. anyone who sees things differently must be a nut job, right? even in CA, liberal heaven, we have the death penalty....what are your feelings on gun control?? second amendment there so I can shoot Bambi?
Use guns to kill lots of bambis.
Did you people hear about Mr. Gant? He's been totally vidicated!
The people who stood and cheered at the GOP primary debates when Perry bragged about how many people he executed are RWNJ's.
Playing God in my opinion is deciding that a human no longer has no chance of redemption.
Jackley can't wait to kill again:
http://www.keloland.com/newsdetail.cfm/ag-requests-new-sentencing-hearing-for-berget/?id=142013
Another one bites the dust.... he even killed 2 in prison because they didn't execute him fast enough.. bleeding heat liberals cost 2 people their lives for some imaginary thought of redemption... foolish
http://news.yahoo.com/va-killer-shows-bits-humanity-execution-151056427.html